RE: BMW E30 M3: PH Heroes
Discussion
Onedesi said:
Thank you for that ??
It would be good to understand why the GT86 is deemed underpowered yet the others aren’t - a test drive is on the cards methinks
In terms of on-paper performance figures, i believe that all of those can crack the 0-62 sprint in under 7 seconds, whereas the GT86 can't and heads more towards 8 seconds, if we're rounding it up (7.6 is the official for the manual). It would be good to understand why the GT86 is deemed underpowered yet the others aren’t - a test drive is on the cards methinks
I know it's not really the point in these cars, but that's what i can make of what they're saying about the Toyota being "under-powered". I presume that is also reflected in the 0-100 figures too.
A mate very generously lent me his new Roberto Ravaglia in red, back in the day and I spent some considerable time in it. I have to say it was pretty special in the handling department if not in outright speed so I get why these are big bucks now. I wouldn't though at these prices.
I'm tempted to say this was the only time M stood for motorsport and not marketing.
I'm tempted to say this was the only time M stood for motorsport and not marketing.
tighnamara said:
Debaser said:
How can this be a PH hero? I’ve learned from the forum experts that anything with semi trailing rear suspension is a deathtrap.
That rear suspension means it’ll handle like a load of crap, as badly as any other old 3 series, or 968 club sport.
Handles as good as the driver That rear suspension means it’ll handle like a load of crap, as badly as any other old 3 series, or 968 club sport.
yonex said:
Missed the boat on the E30, but the DC2 remains one of my all time favourite cars.
My feelings entirely.
To me they both represent the real-world (on-road) 'sweet-spot' of power / weight / grip / adjustability / feedback - yes any modern hot hatch would leave you behind easily, but you'd be having at absolute ball at speeds that won't risk your licence, and with a level of feedback and involvement (oh, and SOUND) that no modern hot hatch or junior sports-coupe can get near to.
Had 2 of these.
The last one I stripped out, fitted cams, Gruppe A carbon air box etc.
I miss them sooo much and if I had the money and space, would buy another in a heartbeat.
To me, they are what driving is all about.
Loved catching significantly more powerful cars on track days.....they were just so biddable.
For the people who don't 'get' them, maybe you never will. They were never hugely fast in a straight line, it was all about turning in and scrubbing as little speed off as possible.....magical little things.
Had an Evo 6Tommi Makinen, Nissan GTR R32 (500+bhp with a 2.8 stroker), but preferred the 'slow' E30M3's!!
The last one I stripped out, fitted cams, Gruppe A carbon air box etc.
I miss them sooo much and if I had the money and space, would buy another in a heartbeat.
To me, they are what driving is all about.
Loved catching significantly more powerful cars on track days.....they were just so biddable.
For the people who don't 'get' them, maybe you never will. They were never hugely fast in a straight line, it was all about turning in and scrubbing as little speed off as possible.....magical little things.
Had an Evo 6Tommi Makinen, Nissan GTR R32 (500+bhp with a 2.8 stroker), but preferred the 'slow' E30M3's!!
havoc said:
yonex said:
Missed the boat on the E30, but the DC2 remains one of my all time favourite cars.
My feelings entirely.
To me they both represent the real-world (on-road) 'sweet-spot' of power / weight / grip / adjustability / feedback - yes any modern hot hatch would leave you behind easily, but you'd be having at absolute ball at speeds that won't risk your licence,o.
I never really loved my E30 M3 as it needed to wring its neck to get it going well and it always felt quite fragile/old and due to that I did not really want to be using all those revs (I've got some mechanical sympathy that was telling me no!). The steering was also a bit of a let down feeling vague, lacking feel..
The Integra on the other hand felt like a precision instrument and the steering, brakes, driving position were all perfect. OK it was obviously 10 yrs newer than the M3 but I was surprised how much better it felt to get in and give it a good thrashing down a B road and round some roundabouts.
And compared to my old 200 sx track car, the Nissan was much easier to slide around, the advantage of low down boost v's high revs needed in the M3 (not a very good comparison I know). With recent prices I have zero interest in having another E30 M3 my experience was
just not good enough to warrant the cost.I love how they look and it would have made a great investment had I just kept hold of it.
rallycross said:
And compared to my old 200 sx track car, the Nissan was much easier to slide around, the advantage of low down boost v's high revs needed in the M3 (not a very good comparison I know). With recent prices I have zero interest in having another E30 M3 my experience was
just not good enough to warrant the cost.I love how they look and it would have made a great investment had I just kept hold of it.
Period 3-spokes on your track car! Was that a facelift S13? Those have really vanished off the roads ( thinking of the disappearing 1990s cars thread ).just not good enough to warrant the cost.I love how they look and it would have made a great investment had I just kept hold of it.
I know what you mean re the M3 steering as well - had good feel like the std E21/E30 but would've liked something similar to a Z3 ratio
DanielSan said:
Also why do so many of these seem to have MIB reg plates?
Wondering that myself, MIB is an old Co. Fermanagh registration, maybe BMW UK bought a selection of them?E30 M3 is the original and best, yes not the fastest but definitely most fun and connected drive I have ever had in a car on the road. Values, the same as old 911's, have just got out of reach.
culpz said:
Onedesi said:
Thank you for that ??
It would be good to understand why the GT86 is deemed underpowered yet the others aren’t - a test drive is on the cards methinks
In terms of on-paper performance figures, i believe that all of those can crack the 0-62 sprint in under 7 seconds, whereas the GT86 can't and heads more towards 8 seconds, if we're rounding it up (7.6 is the official for the manual). It would be good to understand why the GT86 is deemed underpowered yet the others aren’t - a test drive is on the cards methinks
I know it's not really the point in these cars, but that's what i can make of what they're saying about the Toyota being "under-powered". I presume that is also reflected in the 0-100 figures too.
Main reason it at times feels underpowered is that the engine has a noticable torque dip just in the middle of the power band, 3,5 to 4,5k rpm. It can leave you with the feeling the engine is a bit thin. (Improved with a remap, fixed with different exhaust manifold. Some fit a shorter final gearing to liven up the experience, as Renault did with the Clio 197=>200 and if not mistaken, Toyota did so on the latest facelift too)
So how big are the differences between the different versions of the E30 M3? Is the last one (evo3?) automatically the best one?
Owned an E30 M3 for the longest I’ve ever had a car which was 5 years. I changed every part on that car like I do on all cars, lol.
Sold it to the Dutch about 6 or 7 years ago now. Paid £4000 for it, diamond black F reg with 1 German owner and 1 UK owner, spent about £15k or more over the 5 years (Silkolene Pro S every 2k, lol) and then sold it for £16000 including a set of 16” BBS alloys and the 16” Hartge wheels I had. I can still remember waving to the guys as they took it away, makes me sad to this day. I kind of knew I’d never own another but did struggle to achieve that selling price.
Things I remember. Lovely chassis, nice gearshift (once I short shifted it), mechanical feel to it including the throttle bodies, epic looks (I had a wheel fetish and had around 16 sets of wheels my favourite being the 18” BBS splits), nice driving position and reliable. Cred from other users felt really nice, always kept it mint and hand polished before I got into machine polishing. I never saw another on the road in that period although mine was a second car, maybe even third car.
Things I didn’t like. Needed loads of punishment, wouldn’t pull away from my mates Fiesta ST150, inner wheel arch rust (the only bit) and obv jacking point work. Oh, and then the week I sold it the ECU died one morning whilst I was taking the snow off it! Cost me a grand to trouble shoot it before she was getting collected!! Bloody thing.
What I miss. The looks. My goodness. What’s stunning piece of work! Put an EVO 2 front and rear spoiler on which made it look just amazing with either of the alloy sets. Just driving the car made you feel special in an 80’s touring car hero sort of way. Nothing quite like it, id love to do it again but with choke at paying what they get advertised for nowadays.
My brother also had a white 215hp late car and I managed to find him one of the 50 uk black Sport Evos! Wonder where that is now, we sold it for £29,950 to a car collector.....
My car was quicker than his Sport Evo and his white 215hp btw, the Sport Evo was smoking a bit so definitely needing an engine refresh.
Also owned two DC2’s both of which saw my typical strip down and spend a fortune rebuild. I’ll tell you now; the Integra DC2 is a significantly better car than the M3 in my eyes in every area. Engine, brakes, handling, feedback, body control, acceleration, driving position everything. Honestly, having owned over 100 cars I can say hand on heart I miss nothing more than giving a DC2 a good Italian tune up!! Simply and utterly magnificent, I’d pick one over an M3 again anyday.
Might have to start looking actually....or another Accord Type R.
The legend of the M3 is the fact that to date it remains the most successful touring car in history....
Sold it to the Dutch about 6 or 7 years ago now. Paid £4000 for it, diamond black F reg with 1 German owner and 1 UK owner, spent about £15k or more over the 5 years (Silkolene Pro S every 2k, lol) and then sold it for £16000 including a set of 16” BBS alloys and the 16” Hartge wheels I had. I can still remember waving to the guys as they took it away, makes me sad to this day. I kind of knew I’d never own another but did struggle to achieve that selling price.
Things I remember. Lovely chassis, nice gearshift (once I short shifted it), mechanical feel to it including the throttle bodies, epic looks (I had a wheel fetish and had around 16 sets of wheels my favourite being the 18” BBS splits), nice driving position and reliable. Cred from other users felt really nice, always kept it mint and hand polished before I got into machine polishing. I never saw another on the road in that period although mine was a second car, maybe even third car.
Things I didn’t like. Needed loads of punishment, wouldn’t pull away from my mates Fiesta ST150, inner wheel arch rust (the only bit) and obv jacking point work. Oh, and then the week I sold it the ECU died one morning whilst I was taking the snow off it! Cost me a grand to trouble shoot it before she was getting collected!! Bloody thing.
What I miss. The looks. My goodness. What’s stunning piece of work! Put an EVO 2 front and rear spoiler on which made it look just amazing with either of the alloy sets. Just driving the car made you feel special in an 80’s touring car hero sort of way. Nothing quite like it, id love to do it again but with choke at paying what they get advertised for nowadays.
My brother also had a white 215hp late car and I managed to find him one of the 50 uk black Sport Evos! Wonder where that is now, we sold it for £29,950 to a car collector.....
My car was quicker than his Sport Evo and his white 215hp btw, the Sport Evo was smoking a bit so definitely needing an engine refresh.
Also owned two DC2’s both of which saw my typical strip down and spend a fortune rebuild. I’ll tell you now; the Integra DC2 is a significantly better car than the M3 in my eyes in every area. Engine, brakes, handling, feedback, body control, acceleration, driving position everything. Honestly, having owned over 100 cars I can say hand on heart I miss nothing more than giving a DC2 a good Italian tune up!! Simply and utterly magnificent, I’d pick one over an M3 again anyday.
Might have to start looking actually....or another Accord Type R.
The legend of the M3 is the fact that to date it remains the most successful touring car in history....
s m said:
Period 3-spokes on your track car! Was that a facelift S13? Those have really vanished off the roads ( thinking of the disappearing 1990s cars thread ).
I know what you mean re the M3 steering as well - had good feel like the std E21/E30 but would've liked something similar to a Z3 ratio
Yep that was a last of the line S13 94 model on an M reg, once the brakes and suspension were 'improved' it was a brilliant track day car and coped with 3 yrs track use. I know what you mean re the M3 steering as well - had good feel like the std E21/E30 but would've liked something similar to a Z3 ratio
rallycross said:
Yep that was a last of the line S13 94 model on an M reg, once the brakes and suspension were 'improved' it was a brilliant track day car and coped with 3 yrs track use.
I could just see enough of the front end to tell. The first S14s were on an M plate too so that was a very late one. You had the LSD ( and diff cooler as standard then )rezaq said:
Honestly, having owned over 100 cars I can say hand on heart I miss nothing more than giving a DC2 a good Italian tune up!! Simply and utterly magnificent, I’d pick one over an M3 again anyday.
Might have to start looking actually....
No you won't...if there's a good one left out there it's mine, right?!? Might have to start looking actually....
I KNOW I'm going to get flack for this but, really, just look at the prices and performance figures and then tell me that an Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 of the same era isn't a far better car. Um, if you can find a good one. Which is getting rather difficult I admit.
Oh, and the Alfa in a good colour is was prettier as well.
Oh, and the Alfa in a good colour is was prettier as well.
ffhard said:
I KNOW I'm going to get flack for this but, really, just look at the prices and performance figures and then tell me that an Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 of the same era isn't a far better car. Um, if you can find a good one. Which is getting rather difficult I admit.
Oh, and the Alfa in a good colour is was prettier as well.
Not flack - just asked to consider, the 156 is front wheel drive and has a very heavy engine.Oh, and the Alfa in a good colour is was prettier as well.
The E30 M3 is rear wheel drive and built for purpose by those clever types at the M Division from the best parts they could find.
All of the E30 M3s are a homologation car, even the road cars had the roof cut to change the aero profile, (it didn't make much difference in Wolverhampton, but hey) .
The E30 M3 had different suspension pick up points to all the other 3-series in the range with the brakes off the then current 7-series - that has to tell you something about the approach being used to achieve racing success and as a by product, create a great driving road car.
Yes, none of them are powerful, but that's not the point. You're an Elise driver or a Cobra driver - it's only choice.
I've had my M3 since 1999 and raced the Twin Spark 156. The Alfa is a pretty car, but the better comparison would be if Alfa had sold a road version of the 156 WTCC car from 2004-07, (the Selenia sponsored job), with lots of power, bespoke bodywork etc etc
Superdavros said:
ffhard said:
I KNOW I'm going to get flack for this but, really, just look at the prices and performance figures and then tell me that an Alfa Romeo 156 2.5 of the same era isn't a far better car. Um, if you can find a good one. Which is getting rather difficult I admit.
Oh, and the Alfa in a good colour is was prettier as well.
Not flack - just asked to consider, the 156 is front wheel drive and has a very heavy engine.Oh, and the Alfa in a good colour is was prettier as well.
The E30 M3 is rear wheel drive and built for purpose by those clever types at the M Division from the best parts they could find.
All of the E30 M3s are a homologation car, even the road cars had the roof cut to change the aero profile, (it didn't make much difference in Wolverhampton, but hey) .
The E30 M3 had different suspension pick up points to all the other 3-series in the range with the brakes off the then current 7-series - that has to tell you something about the approach being used to achieve racing success and as a by product, create a great driving road car.
Yes, none of them are powerful, but that's not the point. You're an Elise driver or a Cobra driver - it's only choice.
I've had my M3 since 1999 and raced the Twin Spark 156. The Alfa is a pretty car, but the better comparison would be if Alfa had sold a road version of the 156 WTCC car from 2004-07, (the Selenia sponsored job), with lots of power, bespoke bodywork etc etc
I don’t think there is a comparison. One is a race bred touring car legend, the other is just a front wheel drive Alfa saloon with a nice engine driving the wrong wheels!
Don’t get me wrong, I had a GTA and is was great (in fact, my brother and I bought one each) but it wasn’t an E30 M3. And you can feel the weight of that Busso mounted to a 6 spd box over the front wheels....
I am an Alfa fan, however, and currently have a facelifted 166 2.0 TS Lusso for daily duties. A performance car it is not, but a truly lovely thing it is....
Don’t get me wrong, I had a GTA and is was great (in fact, my brother and I bought one each) but it wasn’t an E30 M3. And you can feel the weight of that Busso mounted to a 6 spd box over the front wheels....
I am an Alfa fan, however, and currently have a facelifted 166 2.0 TS Lusso for daily duties. A performance car it is not, but a truly lovely thing it is....
rezaq said:
I don’t think there is a comparison. One is a race bred touring car legend, the other is just a front wheel drive Alfa saloon with a nice engine driving the wrong wheels!
Don’t get me wrong, I had a GTA and is was great (in fact, my brother and I bought one each) but it wasn’t an E30 M3. And you can feel the weight of that Busso mounted to a 6 spd box over the front wheels....
I am an Alfa fan, however, and currently have a facelifted 166 2.0 TS Lusso for daily duties. A performance car it is not, but a truly lovely thing it is....
Like he said.Don’t get me wrong, I had a GTA and is was great (in fact, my brother and I bought one each) but it wasn’t an E30 M3. And you can feel the weight of that Busso mounted to a 6 spd box over the front wheels....
I am an Alfa fan, however, and currently have a facelifted 166 2.0 TS Lusso for daily duties. A performance car it is not, but a truly lovely thing it is....
Car companies don't have the incentive to build cars which are so different from a "normal" model anymore and certainly not into a segment which makes the car accessible to average mortals who can't afford a Lewis Hamilton engined Project 1.
As we head towards the end of the internal combustion engine/platform sharing/brand amalgamation/harmonised world-wide legislation, the manufacturers marketing departments can steer the FIA into motorsport rules which don't need them to create anything which involves as much thought unfortunately, so you don't get stuff like the M3.
Touring cars are generic underneath, as is the WRC to a certain extent, with a branded "lid" on top, to give people something to cheer for.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff