Manual Vs Automatic??
Discussion
I've only ever owned manual cars, more by chance (only buy secondhand) than design. I've probably driven nearly as many miles in other peoples automatics though, particularly work pool or hire cars where requesting an auto usually gets you an 'upgrade' as they don't have the right size of car available.
Of all the automatic cars I've driven, the only one I truly hated was the 1.6 Petrol Astra. It was significantly worse than the manual 1.6
Astra, itself a pretty awful car as well, with meaningful accelleration only available between 1500 and 2000 rpm, and between 6000 and 6500 rpm!!! Matching a dim-witted auto box with an engine with very poor power delivery / torque curve made the car completely unbearable as it hunted between 3rd and 6th gear with cruise control set at 70 on the gentle rolling hills of the M74.
Other than that Astra though, I don't think I've come across a typical 'ordinary' car which was made worse by an auto box, and most were made easier to drive. The one thing I did find though was when in full auto was not to think what gear the car should be in and just think of it as a car with a stop and go control. When I first started driving autos after 25 years of driving manuals, just thinking about when the auto should change gear, I was sub-consciously feathering the accellerator and confusing the gearbox, particulary on downshifts.
If I can ever convince by wife that automatics are for normal people as well as for people who are old, disabled or never able to pass the 'proper' driving test, our next family car will probably be an auto as it makes life much easier in urban traffic.
Of all the automatic cars I've driven, the only one I truly hated was the 1.6 Petrol Astra. It was significantly worse than the manual 1.6
Astra, itself a pretty awful car as well, with meaningful accelleration only available between 1500 and 2000 rpm, and between 6000 and 6500 rpm!!! Matching a dim-witted auto box with an engine with very poor power delivery / torque curve made the car completely unbearable as it hunted between 3rd and 6th gear with cruise control set at 70 on the gentle rolling hills of the M74.
Other than that Astra though, I don't think I've come across a typical 'ordinary' car which was made worse by an auto box, and most were made easier to drive. The one thing I did find though was when in full auto was not to think what gear the car should be in and just think of it as a car with a stop and go control. When I first started driving autos after 25 years of driving manuals, just thinking about when the auto should change gear, I was sub-consciously feathering the accellerator and confusing the gearbox, particulary on downshifts.
If I can ever convince by wife that automatics are for normal people as well as for people who are old, disabled or never able to pass the 'proper' driving test, our next family car will probably be an auto as it makes life much easier in urban traffic.
"You can't block change in an auto. You can't hold the current gear at the limiter in most autos. You can't clutch kick."
and
"I enjoy the simple things of dipping the clutch and blipping the throttle to enjoy the sound of the engine revving though. You can't do that with an Auto, "
Block change? Generally up - equivalent to holding the right hand paddle which reverts to D in one go.
Holding at the limiter - you can certainly run into the limiter when in sport/manual on many autos.
Clutch kick? Not sure what that is, could be equivalent to using launch control.
Dipping the clutch and blipping the throttle? How do you think the Youtubers rev their engines in tunnels? Pull on both paddles, engage neutral, rev the engine, then pull on the right paddly to revert to a suitable gear.
I prefer using a manual whether in traffic or otherwise because of the satisfaction from operating the clutch smoothly with perfectly matched revs, and making time for an un-rushed manual change whether or not using H & T. Using paddles gives excellent control but because it is so easy there is less satisfaction to be had.
Although everything has been said more than once I am still enjoying this thread.
and
"I enjoy the simple things of dipping the clutch and blipping the throttle to enjoy the sound of the engine revving though. You can't do that with an Auto, "
Block change? Generally up - equivalent to holding the right hand paddle which reverts to D in one go.
Holding at the limiter - you can certainly run into the limiter when in sport/manual on many autos.
Clutch kick? Not sure what that is, could be equivalent to using launch control.
Dipping the clutch and blipping the throttle? How do you think the Youtubers rev their engines in tunnels? Pull on both paddles, engage neutral, rev the engine, then pull on the right paddly to revert to a suitable gear.
I prefer using a manual whether in traffic or otherwise because of the satisfaction from operating the clutch smoothly with perfectly matched revs, and making time for an un-rushed manual change whether or not using H & T. Using paddles gives excellent control but because it is so easy there is less satisfaction to be had.
Although everything has been said more than once I am still enjoying this thread.
it doesn't ever get better than that! 
DoubleD said:
Frank7 said:
This is where I start to stutter, I don't get the concept of "driving for fun."
All I need to do, is get from A to B, as smoothly, quickly, and safely as possible.
No contest, I can't be a***d with shifting gears, so it's automatic for me, and has been for years, can't see it changing.
Frank, you do know that pistonheads is a motoring enthusiasts forum?All I need to do, is get from A to B, as smoothly, quickly, and safely as possible.
No contest, I can't be a***d with shifting gears, so it's automatic for me, and has been for years, can't see it changing.
The facts are that I’m only too aware of that, as other well meaning PH contributors have pointed it out to me in the past, and I’ll give you the same truthful answer.
There are many other interesting facets on this Forum, not just things to do with motoring.
After spending virtually all my working life with a steering wheel in my hand, for a long time a 44 ton articulated truck, for a longer time a London Black Cab, I have absolutely zero desire to ever drive anything, ever again.
My wife drives a one year old Peugeot 2008 automatic, which she bought brand new.
Whenever we go out, you’ll find me in the back, like the Lord of the Manor, reading the paper, unless she puts a gun to my head, and says, “Frank, I really don’t feel like driving, do me a solid, and take the wheel for once.”
Cue an attack of bear with a sore head syndrome, but I do it, because I love her.
If her Peugeot wasn’t an auto, I may have taken the chance that her gun would misfire.
The thing I like about manuals is the engine braking - on a nice sinuous road, you can play with the car's balance and thus line just on your right foot. Accelerate and the line widens, lift off and the engine slows the car, transferring weight forwards and tightening the line.
With old-style torque converter automatics, you lift off and at a certain point the torque converter opens, it feels like the car shoots forwards as the engine braking is released, while the engine goes to idle. It really breaks my 'feel' for controlling the car, very annoying.
I know DSGs do proper engine braking; with the modern ZF 8-speeds and stuff, do they still have the annoying habit of opening the torque converter, or are they better than that now?
samoht said:
The thing I like about manuals is the engine braking - on a nice sinuous road, you can play with the car's balance and thus line just on your right foot. Accelerate and the line widens, lift off and the engine slows the car, transferring weight forwards and tightening the line.
With old-style torque converter automatics, you lift off and at a certain point the torque converter opens, it feels like the car shoots forwards as the engine braking is released, while the engine goes to idle. It really breaks my 'feel' for controlling the car, very annoying.
I know DSGs do proper engine braking; with the modern ZF 8-speeds and stuff, do they still have the annoying habit of opening the torque converter, or are they better than that now?
I've been driving my first automatic for just over 6 months now (7 speed DSG box). With old-style torque converter automatics, you lift off and at a certain point the torque converter opens, it feels like the car shoots forwards as the engine braking is released, while the engine goes to idle. It really breaks my 'feel' for controlling the car, very annoying.
I know DSGs do proper engine braking; with the modern ZF 8-speeds and stuff, do they still have the annoying habit of opening the torque converter, or are they better than that now?
It's very impressive, particularly engine braking when it's in sports mode.
There is an eco mode which makes it effectively freewheel when you lift off (until you brake), but I don't like the feel of that at all. I would have bought a different car anyway if I'm was chasing another couple of mpg.
Auto boxes are a great 2nd car / hire car experience for me. Also I find a heavier car damps the clunkines of their less well executed moves.
They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
Auto boxes are a great 2nd car / hire car experience for me. Also I find a heavier car damps the clunkines of their less well executed moves.
They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
Edited by Red 5 on Sunday 22 April 11:48
Auto boxes are a great 2nd car / hire car experience for me. Also I find a heavier car damps the clunkines of their less well executed moves.
They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
Edited by Red 5 on Sunday 22 April 12:06
Olivera said:
Pica-Pica said:
Agree. Unless you have a penchant for pushing a clutch pedal up and down, a decent auto gives you as much/more control than a manual.
More control? You can't block change in an auto. You can't hold the current gear at the limiter in most autos. You can't clutch kick.That's three examples off the top of my head that you can't do in the vast majority of autos. I'm sure there's more.
Block change in an auto? Yup. Double or triple flick of paddles, quicker than a block change.
Can’t hold gear at limiter? Can in my auto, should I wish.
Clutch kick? Why?
Oh, can you change gear and signal in a manual?
Can you change gear and dip/flash headlights in a manual?
Can you open a window and change gear at the same time in a manual?
That’s three examples off the top of my head...(quote)
Pica-Pica said:
Oh, can you change gear and signal in a manual?
Can you change gear and dip/flash headlights in a manual?
You can if the manufacturer hasn't screwed up the ergonomics by putting the indicators on the same side as the gear-stick (pet hate of mine).Can you change gear and dip/flash headlights in a manual?
Also many autos cannot block change. The way they work internally doesn't allow it any more than a motorbike box can. What they can do is drop through all the gears very quickly; whether thats quicker than a human can block change a manual probably depends on the 'box and the gears.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 22 April 09:44
I've just sold a v8 with a manual box. It was my only car and, with a heavy clutch, it was a pain in the arse in traffic. I've swapped it for a DSG box in a golf and so far I love it. So much more relaxing everywhere. Yes, my other car was way faster and more engaging but for 90% of the time the dsg will suit my needs more. I did have an old TT with this box and that was terrible but there must have been something wrong with that one so I sold it on pretty quickly. New ones are ace.
Pica-Pica said:
I did say a decent auto
Block change in an auto? Yup. Double or triple flick of paddles, quicker than a block change.
Can’t hold gear at limiter? Can in my auto, should I wish.
Clutch kick? Why?
Oh, can you change gear and signal in a manual?
Can you change gear and dip/flash headlights in a manual?
Can you open a window and change gear at the same time in a manual?
That’s three examples off the top of my head...(quote)
Something that in my opinion an auto cannot do is offer the same levels of excitement at a manual. I find them boring to use. Block change in an auto? Yup. Double or triple flick of paddles, quicker than a block change.
Can’t hold gear at limiter? Can in my auto, should I wish.
Clutch kick? Why?
Oh, can you change gear and signal in a manual?
Can you change gear and dip/flash headlights in a manual?
Can you open a window and change gear at the same time in a manual?
That’s three examples off the top of my head...(quote)
But we are all different and get enjoyment from different things.
The best gearbox for 1 might not be the best gearbox for everyone else.
The best gearbox is the 1 that suits your needs and not what someone has told you is the best.
The manuals in the two S2000s and the caterham 6spd the Westfield were so good that most other manuals I have driven feel a bit crap really.
Had two VC Omegas (both same engine V6), one manual and one auto. Auto is FAR more suited to that than the manual.
Have a Golf R DSG now and prefer that over the manual, had the manual been like the S2000 gearbox then my decision may have been different. The manual isn’t “crap” by any means but I guess I was spoilt by the S2000/Westy such that most manuals are a disappointment.
Really like the DSG on the whole, auto, semi-auto and manual/paddle mode all work well when having fun. On the commute just leave in D and all’s well.
Had two VC Omegas (both same engine V6), one manual and one auto. Auto is FAR more suited to that than the manual.
Have a Golf R DSG now and prefer that over the manual, had the manual been like the S2000 gearbox then my decision may have been different. The manual isn’t “crap” by any means but I guess I was spoilt by the S2000/Westy such that most manuals are a disappointment.
Really like the DSG on the whole, auto, semi-auto and manual/paddle mode all work well when having fun. On the commute just leave in D and all’s well.
Modern torque converter are miles better than they used to be and lock up pretty well. They work well with large capacity petrols with plenty of low down grunt or with diesels. In fact they are ideal for diesels given the narrow power band many of them are saddled with. They smooth out the on/off power delivery nicely and keep the engine in the right zone which can be a PITA to do manually.
BUT but they are still innefficient. I'd happily have drive a DSG. All the benefits of an auto without the losses incurred by the torque converter.
And slushers don't suit every engine. Last year I tried a MINI Cooper S (R53) auto. It didn't really work as the engine wanted to rev and the box couldn't keep up with it.
A DSG would have suited it nicely (for city driving).
BUT but they are still innefficient. I'd happily have drive a DSG. All the benefits of an auto without the losses incurred by the torque converter.
And slushers don't suit every engine. Last year I tried a MINI Cooper S (R53) auto. It didn't really work as the engine wanted to rev and the box couldn't keep up with it.
A DSG would have suited it nicely (for city driving).
For most of my life I had only manual cars and now I only have one, my old 997 GT3RS. Everything else is DSG or full auto.
For me the simplicity of the RS which does not have a lot of other stuff like stability control is a bit of fun and a bit of H&T is nice, but to be honest I mainly drive DSG these days even on a track.
Nice for a weekend drive but would not want a manual as a DD.
For me the simplicity of the RS which does not have a lot of other stuff like stability control is a bit of fun and a bit of H&T is nice, but to be honest I mainly drive DSG these days even on a track.
Nice for a weekend drive but would not want a manual as a DD.
Red 5 said:
Auto boxes are a great 2nd car / hire car experience for me. Also I find a heavier car damps the clunkines of their less well executed moves.
They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
I agree that a modern sport auto gives you more options and thus more skills to learn, should you wish to exploit all those options. I think we’re all in agreement in learning and appreciating skills. Of these, perhaps observation is the best skill to hone and improve, everything else is secondary.They are great for the driving I care less about. (And for people who care less generally, in my experience)
As much as I admire some speedy upshifts and pops etc...
PDK downshifts are horrible and unsettle the car. Humans can do a way better job if they care to learn.
The blip is timed wronly and starts before the clutch is full engaged.
Do the GT cars do this too?
In general, all the subtle polish and precision is removed from driving. The dozens of techniques to learn with auto boxes, actually make them way more tiresome and boring than “Just pressing a clutch”
Auto mode / stick / paddle / combinations of all three, in eco, sport, sport+ blah blah....
I find PDK and ZF8 boxes good for learner driver standards at best.
Kickdown (although avoided at all costs) is one of the worst, most unpleasant sensations in all driving. Just nasty
Not quite as bad as crashing the car, but pretty close
So what modern auto boxes do very well is admirable, but what they do badly is unforgivably poor imho.
There are lots of elements to a manual that I enjoy. I think the main one is having to time and plan your gear changes. You do have to do this in an auto or dual clutch box, but it’s easier / quicker and so takes a little less thought.
On balance, autos a strong pref for daily driver, these days they are undoubtedly faster so work for fast driving.... It’s a quirky element of having more mechanical elements to manage that still attract me to a manual. But even then, it’s specific to the car and in many very isolated or heavily assisted cars, a manual isn’t much of a chore in traffic but also isn’t much of a thrill when pushing on.
I’d probably use my Evora more if it were auto. But the very best drives I have in it would be missing something if it were.
On balance, autos a strong pref for daily driver, these days they are undoubtedly faster so work for fast driving.... It’s a quirky element of having more mechanical elements to manage that still attract me to a manual. But even then, it’s specific to the car and in many very isolated or heavily assisted cars, a manual isn’t much of a chore in traffic but also isn’t much of a thrill when pushing on.
I’d probably use my Evora more if it were auto. But the very best drives I have in it would be missing something if it were.
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