Old cars,built better ?
Discussion
I think lots of modern cars are incredibly well built, but it is my old W124 Merc and my brother’s 964 Porsche that left a lasting impression on me. Both had a real sense of solidity and quality that isn’t present in modern motors.
I think if you go far enough back to the brass and walnut Bentleys and Rollers you’ll find another level of build but that’s a bit irrelevant these days.
I think if you go far enough back to the brass and walnut Bentleys and Rollers you’ll find another level of build but that’s a bit irrelevant these days.
Get an older car and have it properly rustproofed and it will provide years of faithful service. And more fun than a modern.
My last 3 daily drivers were a 1995 Mercedes 1999 Honda and currently a 1997 BMW. None have given any major problems and probably more reliable than their new equivalents. The Honda was sold at 120k miles, driven hard throughout the year, tracked etc. And not a problem. I believe a PHer has it now!
My last 3 daily drivers were a 1995 Mercedes 1999 Honda and currently a 1997 BMW. None have given any major problems and probably more reliable than their new equivalents. The Honda was sold at 120k miles, driven hard throughout the year, tracked etc. And not a problem. I believe a PHer has it now!
Rose tinted glasses I reckon. People can look wistfully at some older cars - they were particularly good in their peer group.
Three step changes in the robustness / reliability of cars
1) understanding of steel quality and rust proofing methods
2) electronic ignition and moving away from points distributors.
3) fuel injection replacing carbs.
That’s all before you look at safety and crash protection etc.
Where ‘build quality’ has reduced is the drive to be more efficient in material selection and a reduction in over engineering (which they had to do years ago because they didn’t understand the real details). This means you will find cheaper feeling materials in some modern cars.... But they will last anyway.
There are always exceptions when OEMs get things wrong. But as a trend, far better built today. I like older cars, they have their merits, but they generally were not well built.
Three step changes in the robustness / reliability of cars
1) understanding of steel quality and rust proofing methods
2) electronic ignition and moving away from points distributors.
3) fuel injection replacing carbs.
That’s all before you look at safety and crash protection etc.
Where ‘build quality’ has reduced is the drive to be more efficient in material selection and a reduction in over engineering (which they had to do years ago because they didn’t understand the real details). This means you will find cheaper feeling materials in some modern cars.... But they will last anyway.
There are always exceptions when OEMs get things wrong. But as a trend, far better built today. I like older cars, they have their merits, but they generally were not well built.
Improved reliability which is in the main unquestionable is not always tied in with better built.
There are loads of variables but the quality of steel in nuts and bolts only shows after a long time and as has been said is it designed in.
If the car has a design life of 7-10 years then a bean counter won't let you spec a fastener than will last 15, similarly to an exhaust, suspension bush etc etc. Computer power means everything can be calculated and built down to a price such that it lasts ok/good enough, so less is over engineered by accident as I think it sometimes was in the 90's re the Japanese cars and Peugeots and old mercs etc.
Galvanising and good steel has been available for a long time now and some used it some didn't, paint changes have been enforced, I think there was a change to solder at some time too that caused some dash/wiring issues.
The car designers and engineers aren't doing nothing year on year so things 'improve' but build quality may not always be one, they may be steered towards, Packaging, cost, appearance, cost, life expectancy, cost.....so it's hard to compare those Mondeo's people talk about until the now Mondeo's are the age of the old Mondeo's?
What you certainly can do if at all interested in older cars is research and find out good from the average or even bad, when new it's almost impossible for us to know what will age better, build quality in comparison to peers of a similar age takes time to show through.
There are loads of variables but the quality of steel in nuts and bolts only shows after a long time and as has been said is it designed in.
If the car has a design life of 7-10 years then a bean counter won't let you spec a fastener than will last 15, similarly to an exhaust, suspension bush etc etc. Computer power means everything can be calculated and built down to a price such that it lasts ok/good enough, so less is over engineered by accident as I think it sometimes was in the 90's re the Japanese cars and Peugeots and old mercs etc.
Galvanising and good steel has been available for a long time now and some used it some didn't, paint changes have been enforced, I think there was a change to solder at some time too that caused some dash/wiring issues.
The car designers and engineers aren't doing nothing year on year so things 'improve' but build quality may not always be one, they may be steered towards, Packaging, cost, appearance, cost, life expectancy, cost.....so it's hard to compare those Mondeo's people talk about until the now Mondeo's are the age of the old Mondeo's?
What you certainly can do if at all interested in older cars is research and find out good from the average or even bad, when new it's almost impossible for us to know what will age better, build quality in comparison to peers of a similar age takes time to show through.
Modern cars tend to be better built, safer and more reliable than years ago. The difference is in the attitude; most people with a car never bother to open the bonnet or check the tyre pressures, let alone wash it (unless all the car washes round here are just money laundering factories 
) Years ago people looked after their cars more, which gave an illusion of better quality than actually existed.
) Years ago people looked after their cars more, which gave an illusion of better quality than actually existed.Scootersp said:
it's hard to compare those Mondeo's people talk about until the now Mondeo's are the age of the old Mondeo's?
I had a January 1997 Mondeo 2.0LX Mk 2 that I bought in October 2007 so nearly 11 years old. It wasn't great, cheap velour seats, cheap plastic dash. Various things went wrong with the heater controls and half the heated screen had failed. Always felt clammy inside. I had it for about 2 years and the front discs had to be cut off, come the MOT, they were that corroded on.I bought a new Mondeo 2.0 Edge in 2009 so it's now 9 years old and the quality is light years better.
I am certain the same can be said about my 1996 Mk III Golf GTI bought in June 2009, aged 13, which looked solid. Wasn't. There again, my daughter's 2006 Golf diesel gave her no end of trouble, albeit mechanically but it's far more solid.
Slow said:
ruhall said:
r129sl said:
It stuck in my mind as I always thought the 7-year figure was low, only to have it reinforced by somebody else . It's probably more to do with the march of technology, they certainly don't anticipate them rusting out in seven years.
Basically, I agree with your comments and also believe that MB had a much longer design-life years ago.
Did you actually write, rather than email. If so, I bet that confused their customer-services dept, " Look what we had in the post, one of those funny notes on a piece of paper. How do we deal with this'
Mum has a 180k and 200k mile Range Rovers, 2002 and 2006, both are mechanically ok (other than the flawed td6 gearbox which was "sealed for life").
The problem arises when the electrical bits fail and are no longer available. If that then means the engine, gearbox, eco-rubbish add-ons or MOT-related issues (ie electrically adjustable driver's seat) etc don't work, you're stuck.
You can get by without heated steering wheel, heated seats, aircon etc etc but certain ecu failures will often mean it's more cost-effective to scrap an otherwise perfectly good car. Which is nuts.
Modern stuff for me is much better built. By the 90s a lot of 80s-era cars were absolutely shagged. I think there are some exceptions though. American stuff from the 50s, 60s and 70s is very robust in terms of mechanics. Everything over-engineered and nothing flimsy. What let them down though was tin worm - the steel they used to build some of those cars was thick but by god did it rust!
croyde said:
At least you can sit on the bonnet of an older car. Plus you can roll over it and come up shooting like Bodie and Doyle 
I have a picture of 4 of my mates sitting on the bonnet of a 1992 Oldsmobile.
So much as point at any modern bodywork these days and it's dented.
Yes so much more important than protecting pedestrians. I have a picture of 4 of my mates sitting on the bonnet of a 1992 Oldsmobile.
So much as point at any modern bodywork these days and it's dented.
CO2000 said:
Exceptions rather than the rule I'd say, even original exhausts these days last 10+ years, my Dad was saying that MK2 Escorts back in the 70s/80s were rotted in sometimes 3 years from new!
Are think you could be right - there was certainly some s
t about in the 70s and 80s, generally coming out of Birmingham. Although I can't see why an exhaust system would rust less now - that's one place where technology hasn't changed, a mild steel pipe is still a mild steel pipe.I think we can agree though that in the case of Mercedes, they're not like they used to be, but then and again, they are much more affordable now and within the reach of many. You pay for what you get.
A Merc W123 (often hailed as the best made Merc ever) back in it's day cost the same as an av. 3 bed house in England. To put that in context, that would mean that the latest E Class would cost more than 200K.
There is no comparison . Most old cars , however beguiling they looked (hello 275GTB , Alfa Duetto, ) or lovely to drive (hello Mini Cooper, Elan ) were almost invariably poorly made, unreliable and rust prone . Gearboxes' synchro (if present in the first place ) often wore out quickly , engines needed decoking. Lucas Prince of Darkness electrics were a bad joke and intensive maintenance was required on nearly everything with 3000/5000 mile service intervals not uncommon .
My first car, in 1975 , was a five year old Riley1300 - a big mini to drive but a shame the floor fell out through rust. I bought an MG Midget - a hoot but the engine was utterly shagged at 50k miles and the paint was falling off. Dad had a new Dolomite 1850HL - not only did the n/s front suspension collapse at high speed with me driving , the stheap went through no fewer than FIVE gearboxes in 20 k miles, the overdrive went awol and the engine would run on for up to a minute after you turned it off .
Beetles were pretty bullet proof - and felt it - but most stuff was on a self destruct mission from the moment you brought it home
My first car, in 1975 , was a five year old Riley1300 - a big mini to drive but a shame the floor fell out through rust. I bought an MG Midget - a hoot but the engine was utterly shagged at 50k miles and the paint was falling off. Dad had a new Dolomite 1850HL - not only did the n/s front suspension collapse at high speed with me driving , the s
theap went through no fewer than FIVE gearboxes in 20 k miles, the overdrive went awol and the engine would run on for up to a minute after you turned it off . Beetles were pretty bullet proof - and felt it - but most stuff was on a self destruct mission from the moment you brought it home
When the older cars were daily drivers it was accepted that most ancillaries would need replacing every few years. So the dynamo/alternator and starter motor would fail within five years and the exhaust would have rusted away. Coolant hoses would swell and burst and drive shaft gaiters would split fairly often.
In my current 18-year old car the exhaust, radiator and battery have each been replaced just once in the car's lifetime and all the other major bits are original.
In my current 18-year old car the exhaust, radiator and battery have each been replaced just once in the car's lifetime and all the other major bits are original.
blade7 said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Interesting point. Do engines ever need decoking now? Or reboreing? I'm told it used to be required every 30,000 miles or so.
Some Direct Injection petrol engines benefit from having the inlet valves decoked.https://blog.modbargains.com/get-nuts-feed-bmw-n55...
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