Diesel hate? ..wtf?

[white_goodman]

Nickbrapp said:

It will just go from one hot topic to another, it was co2 so they pushed diesel, now co2 output is on the up it will be c02 again, they are already reducing speed limits on the m4 to reduce pollution, soon it will be something else to use as a buzzword, in 40 years it will be EV batteries leaking or something else.

It’s like plastic straws, banning them won’t solve the problem.

It always gets me the UK Is such a drop in the ocean, other parts of the world are still chucking out massive amounts of co2 etc

It’s like coal power stations, we are closing all of ours but other places in the world aren’t?

We are obsessed with downsizing our cars engines to tiny ones but in America? No chance,

I'm in two minds about this. Personally, I haven't owned a diesel car for about 8 years but I would choose diesel in certain types of vehicle. Pickup trucks, SUVs, large executive cars etc, especially if 5 cylinders or more. And it's not necessarily about whether you can afford it or not. I'm sure the Supercharged V8 in the Range Rover would be good fun in small doses but if you're driving it day-in-day-out having to fill up 3 times per week vs. once per week in the diesel version could get a little wearing? Add to this that every Range Rover driver isn't going to necessarily be a diehard petrolhead and might just want to potter around in luxury and refinement. Regardless of personal preference, let's be honest and say that 10-15 years ago, petrol engines in mainstream bread-and-butter cars were pretty poor. Relatively high CO2 and fuel consumption and pretty gutless on the whole. I had mk5 Golfs and B5 Passats as company cars and the PD diesels were far punchier, more economical and more enjoyable to drive vs. the limp first gen FSI petrols (GTI excepted). I also owned a 2008 Polo with the 1.4 TDI and despite being a bit agricultural and with rather a narrow power band, it could consistently do 60mpg with ease and 50mpg even if you were giving it death and around 30 pounds to tax vs. 100+ pounds for the gutless and relatively thirsty 1.2/1.4 petrol.

Petrol has caught up in recent years though. The last two rentals that I have had were a 1.2 TSI Golf and a 1.5 TDCI Focus. To be frank, as much as I've been a VW fan in the past, the Focus was the nicer car with the one exception of the engine, which was very unrefined and a bit sluggish off boost. The 1.2 TSI was a lovely, refined, punchy little engine though and difficult to believe that it only had around 85bhp. Average fuel economy for the petrol was 45mpg and for the diesel 50mpg. Still a slight advantage for the diesel and maybe on a long motorway run, it would do even better but personally I wouldn't see the value in paying the extra for diesel. My father recently switched back to petrol after 15 years running diesels and has no regrets. More refined, less potential reliability issues, only a very marginal drop in fuel economy.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't CO2 emissions and fuel consumption almost directly correlated? Over the last 10-15 years, people have demanded more economical and "cleaner" cars. By "cleaner" the measure has (mistakenly in my opinion) been CO2 emissions and the government have got behind this. I wasn't aware about the particulate issue with GDIs but it makes sense that by chasing better efficiency, better fuel economy and lower CO2 that the payoff has been higher particulate and NOX emissions, which comes from running a leaner burn.

Having spent some time in NA, they do finally seem to be shying away from V6 and V8 engines in favour of smaller, more fuel-efficient turbocharged fours or V6s. Ford have ditched the entry-level V6 Mustang in favour of the four-cylinder Ecoboost but fortunately you can still get a V8. Contrary to this, it seems that they also plan to axe their whole NA car range (Fiesta/Focus/Fusion (Mondeo)/Taurus) with the exception of the Mustang over the next four years and focus on the SUV/truck market. People still insist on driving their V8 pickup trucks though and the whole infrastrucure is still built around the car, so the tide of change is going to be slow. It's difficult to imagine minimum wage factory workers driving V8 pickups in the UK but in NA, that's pretty normal but despite petrol still being significantly cheaper than over here, prices are still creeping up. Each generation of V8 claims better fuel economy but they're still very thirsty in the grand scheme of things. Diesel seems to be catching on with Dodge, Ford and GM all offering "small" diesel pickup trucks right now and with the absence of VW and Audi diesels in the new car market, Chevrolet/GMC seem to have stepped into that arena by testing the water with diesel-powered cars and SUVs. No-one else with the possible exception of BMW/Mercedes seem to be offering diesel in NA, I'm guessing due to tighter emissions regulations (California) maybe?

[457892345]

For the emissions side of cars and how much they pollute it wouldn't impact my decision on what fuel type i choose personally but accept whatever the people in the knows findings are, if diesels are made completely uneconomical due to the subsequent taxation i would obviously switch to petrol.

Really where i don't understand diesel hate at all is in terms of usability. Firstly any petrol Ive been in is far noisier than my diesel when on the move, at idle i can't hear it over low volume radio but if i completely turn it off the familiar minibus chugging is present but certainly not intrusive, never bothered me in the slightest and a petrol engine would likely be just as intrusive albeit a different sound and there is no shaking or vibration to be felt either, When stepped on i much prefer the sophisticated, almost subdued sound of it revving up, just enough to give you a sense of speed but not enough that you start feeling anti social, I can appreciate the tone of an exhaust but the loudness of a big engined petrol detracts from the experience rather than adds anything imo.

In terms of acceleration and speed i feel a 6.5sec 0-60mph diesel ''feels'' faster and better than a 6.5sec 0-60 petrol off the line and the way it makes its power so effortlessly and smoothly its lovely around the bends and when paired with 55 profile tyres and a smooth road gives a sensation of flowing like your on a magic carpet, compared to the way power climbs then falls then climbs again in a comparable petrol.

While i understand everyones different and has their own viewpoint i can't help but think the people that ''hate'' diesels just haven't driven the right one.

Edited by 457892345 on Thursday 26th April 20:47

[Douglas Quaid]

steveL98 said:

A what? who? ..that says more about you than it does about me, my friend..

You’ve never heard of Alan partridge? You’ve missed out. Get caught up immediately.

[Pistom]

457892345 said:

For the emissions side of cars and how much they pollute it wouldn't impact my decision on what fuel type i choose ........

While i understand everyones different and has their own viewpoint i can't help but think the people that ''hate'' diesels just haven't driven the right one.

Or maybe it doesn't suit them. Personally, when I choose to drive a diesel it is because it is better suited to the task on hand. Despite this, some are so blinkered they refuse to accept that.

Inam happy to pay a premium for a diesel when it's the right choice which more my requirements is most of the time.

[457892345]

Pistom said:

Or maybe it doesn't suit them. Personally, when I choose to drive a diesel it is because it is better suited to the task on hand. Despite this, some are so blinkered they refuse to accept that.

Inam happy to pay a premium for a diesel when it's the right choice which more my requirements is most of the time.

Yeah as i said everyones different but the point i was trying to make is that given enough time and different dervs to try im sure a lot of these diesel ''haters'' could be converted to at least indifference, pretty sure much of this ''hate'' stems from experience with old/crappy platforms and perhaps some bandwagoners thrown in.

I think i get your point though, in that it depends on your useage not just which goes around a b-road better.

[Bridgehouse]

Diesel hate?

Apparently the planet is going to heat up/explode/flood or some such other and we are all going to die 20 years too early and the main cause of it is a proliferation of UK commuters driving early 2000’s diesels.

S’true - Daily Mail said so.

Don’t worry tho - the manufacturing process for electric and petrol cars is totally non polluting. The generation of electric the world over is similarly non polluting, and you can all carry on having foreign holidays by plane, having lots of goods shipped from China and continuing to broadly ignore the main causes of world pollution because the govt have told us the extra few quid on diesel tax will sort it.

[Big GT]

PSH said:

Diesels are dead...petrol not far behind...when you have companies like Land Rover who's fleet of vehicles are made up with 90% diesel models stating that in less than 2 years the entire fleet will be electric...well I think that shows where things are heading....Now Landrover, being predominately diesel doing this so soon, a company that one might expect to be the last to do the switch, I bet all other manufacturers have plans that aren't far behind. Some will take longer than 2 years but it's going to happen and it's going to happen a lot sooner than the government's 2040 dead line although even that may be brought forward to 2030. So when you look at this, when you consider how long it takes to develop/produce a new car I think we may find no new models with IC engines within the next 5 years.....

we shall see

I have 3 cars

1) N/A 4ltr 6cyl 360bhp
2) Plug in Hybrid
3) 4 pot VAG Tdi

All 3 are fantastic. But suit totally difference purposes. Nothing can match a Diesel for motorway commutes, sitting at 70-90mph, low RPM, low effort high mpg.
The Hybrid as averaged 180mpg over the last 1100miles. Mostly town. However on the motorway its down at 40mpg and cant match the diesel.

I just cant see how Diesel will disappear soon unless the price differentiation between petrol increases significantly

[Sheepshanks]

white_goodman said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't CO2 emissions and fuel consumption almost directly correlated?

They are directly related. Indeed for the official tests they didn't used to measure MPG at all as they couldn't cope with the way fuel injection systems recycled fuel. MPG was calculated from the CO2 emissions. I read somewhere that it's changed now though.

[ericmcn]

steveL98 said:

Why all the sudden hate for diesels?

People have short memories, weren't we recently encourage to buy them as they were quieter, cleaner and more economical?

Remember this advert?

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video;_yl...

I never liked diesel - people rant on about the Government brainwashing everyone that if they did not buy a diesel car the world would end - thats BS, people had plenty choice and petrol cars were in abundance.

Diesel is smelly, loud (in the wrong way) and carcinogenic- even new diesel cars are terrible and need hefty doses of ad blu crap to stay within limits of Nox and whatever else they pollute.

now, how to do a dpf delete.......

[Ltjonmclane]

I may be making this up, but i think i read somewhere that just 8 supertanker container ships emit more emissions than all of the cars in the uk combined. They run on the left over stuff after diesel has been refined. There'll be someone more clever than me along hopefully to verify this.

[foxbody-87]

It’s something like 15 ships produce more sulfur oxide than all the cars in the world combined, but per tonne of freight create less emissions than trucks or trains.

[Ninja59]

ericmcn said:

I never liked diesel - people rant on about the Government brainwashing everyone that if they did not buy a diesel car the world would end - thats BS, people had plenty choice and petrol cars were in abundance.

Diesel is smelly, loud (in the wrong way) and carcinogenic- even new diesel cars are terrible and need hefty doses of ad blu crap to stay within limits of Nox and whatever else they pollute.

now, how to do a dpf delete.......

Actually particulates are most of the problem which are a problem for GDI engines (the WHO actually identified particulates from diesel emissions at the time, but there was limited info on gdi engines at the time which has now changed and they cause smaller, possibly more numerous production of particulates without GPF's).

NOx adblue and bosch are helping change that issue.

I just wish people would understand modern petrols have the SAME (or at best Similar) issues as diesels pretty much now.

Even ev's there is questions around the extra weight causing more particulate production from tyres and brakes.

[PSH]

Big GT said:

PSH said:

Diesels are dead...petrol not far behind...when you have companies like Land Rover who's fleet of vehicles are made up with 90% diesel models stating that in less than 2 years the entire fleet will be electric...well I think that shows where things are heading....Now Landrover, being predominately diesel doing this so soon, a company that one might expect to be the last to do the switch, I bet all other manufacturers have plans that aren't far behind. Some will take longer than 2 years but it's going to happen and it's going to happen a lot sooner than the government's 2040 dead line although even that may be brought forward to 2030. So when you look at this, when you consider how long it takes to develop/produce a new car I think we may find no new models with IC engines within the next 5 years.....

we shall see

I have 3 cars

1) N/A 4ltr 6cyl 360bhp
2) Plug in Hybrid
3) 4 pot VAG Tdi

All 3 are fantastic. But suit totally difference purposes. Nothing can match a Diesel for motorway commutes, sitting at 70-90mph, low RPM, low effort high mpg.
The Hybrid as averaged 180mpg over the last 1100miles. Mostly town. However on the motorway its down at 40mpg and cant match the diesel.

I just cant see how Diesel will disappear soon unless the price differentiation between petrol increases significantly

I'm not suggesting that there's anything wrong per sec with Diesel cars, they have proved their performance for some years now, I've seen them win at Le Mans. The point is the world is becoming much more conscious of what it's doing to the planet, with plastics and diesel pollutants being under attack the most today. I happen to agree that diesels are worse for us to breath but then that's my personal opinion backed up by real life experience as I happen to be badly affected by diesel, something discovered back in the late 80's when my company car was changed to diesel in an attempt to save money. I was very quickly given a petrol car after tests proved how bad it was for me, I'm talking the wet fuel more than the exhaust gas here. Anyway it only took the (blue chip) company a year to change all company cars back to petrol after running costs rocketed. That's another issue altogether. Diesel will be gone soon, the writing is on the wall, I already mentioned 'Landrover', that alone shows how things are heading and in less than 2 years. Add the penalties being charged for parking permits in cities, road tax, German cities in the last few weeks being told that diesels are to be banned in two of their largest cities...the list goes on and on....
Things are going to change and much sooner than most people realise...

[ringsound]

I have both diesel and petrol now, diesel for long range large car, and petrol for town short trip
i use to be pro petrol, as diesel car are very bad in my country
until I have my first diesel in UK, i was traveling over 180mile per day, hence a diesel is way more economical
before i own my diesel, I like many other have the impression of old diesel, noise, vibrate so badly like having Elvis on board, and black smoke
it is true for old diesel, but new diesel with proper maintenance and DPF, they are actually quite good, it is smooth like a petrol, and way more torque, it is noisier than petrol counterpart but definitely nothing like old diesel engine
the problem with hatred on diesel is more to do with politic
diesel actually produce less CO, CO2, HC, and it produce more NOx and PM
HC could be carcinogenic, CO will kill you before you knew it, CO2 are major contributor to greenhouse effect
NOx and PM could be carcinogenic and respiratory problem
hence, diesel and petrol are equally polluted, however, no matter diesel or petrol the pollution from vehicle are fraction compare the emission from factories and powerplant
and may be in the future EV is going to get blame, pollution from battery etc

[Evanivitch]

Ninja59 said:

Even ev's there is questions around the extra weight causing more particulate production from tyres and brakes.

Except all modern EVs use regenerative braking for almost all scenarios.

[thiscocks]

Because thick people believe the government

[A900ss]

It’s all total bullst this petrol vs diesel.

It’s like arguing which is better, knife crime or gun crime. Both petrol and diesel are bad for the environment and our health but this is the world we live in. If the car hadn’t been invented and was submitted before government today, it would be outlawed.

Where we have gone wrong is that the government incentivised the public to buy diesels even though they didn't need them. Lowering CO2 was the aim.

Diesel is low CO2,a global issue.

Diesel is high NOx, a local issue.

Petrol isn’t really that much better but it is more refined for transport.

Pre 1990, if you weren’t using a car for work/high miles, very few people had diesel and that is where it will go back to. It will find its natural level.

My only hope is that when diesel declines, so does the stupid public desire for SUV's when the true cost of running a petrol SUV hits home. Long live the estate car!!!

PS - I have a diesel car and so does my wife and we do a combined 45/50k a year in them, 99% outside of cities. These are 'transport'. I also have a petrol 4.5 V8 for pleasure. All three vehicles are suited to their roles which I can’t say for the majority of diesel cars in my street.

PPS - I do genuinely believe that cleaning up the NOx in diesels is easier than lowering the CO2 in petrols so I think diesel will win in the end until a viable hydrogen cell is available.

Edited by A900ss on Thursday 26th April 23:34

[Mr Tidy]

I don't hate diesels, but I'm glad I don't have one any more.

In 2005 I bought my first 4 cylinder turbo-diesel because I was taking a car allowance and getting fuel paid for business miles, and the HMRC mileage payment would have meant me subsidising business travel if I had opted for petrol.

It was Euro 4 so had no DPF, so when you floored it you got a cloud of horrors like a 2-stroke!

I replaced it in 2008 with another 4 pot TD which was Euro 5 so no clouds out of the exhaust, but it had the BMW N47 ticking time-bomb!

But I did average about 14K miles a year in both of those so probably enough to justify diesel.

Anyway by 2014 I was no longer doing business miles so I bought a petrol straight 6 - what a revelation in terms of smoothness and engine noise!

I'm now on numbers 3 and 4 straight 6 petrols, and now I no longer commute I'm getting mid 30s mpg out of them. Yes it's less than the TDs, but just so much more pleasant!

Maybe 2 Band K cars for RFL isn't great for the environment in terms of CO2, but I'm paying for my vice every year! And I only use 1 at a time.

[RobDickinson]

Nasty stinky poisonous st.

Never liked them, never owned one, never will.

Sooner they are all off the roads the better.

[RobDickinson]

Evanivitch said:

Ninja59 said:

Even ev's there is questions around the extra weight causing more particulate production from tyres and brakes.

Except all modern EVs use regenerative braking for almost all scenarios.

Yep brakes last 4 times as long on an ev typically.

As for extra weight that's marginal already Tesla model 3 doesn't weigh much more than the equivalent BMW 340.