RE: Advanced driving: Putting Reg Local to the test
Discussion
Gemaeden said:
vonhosen said:
Gemaeden said:
How long has it all been out there? Since the 1920s, 1950s, 1990s?
I'm genuinely surprised that someone would think that there could never be any increase of knowledge about a subject.
It's always been out there, just like the universe has.I'm genuinely surprised that someone would think that there could never be any increase of knowledge about a subject.
As our understanding improves (just like it does about the universe) it opens new doors & poses new questions that need answering/addressing. It can also show that what we were mistaken about what we previously believed to be the case, so we have to go back & try again.
Assuming of course made an ass of me.
What I gather is that the information isn't all together anywhere, and readily accessible, which is a shame.
Some people have more tools at their disposal than others & can help others acquire these tools, they may even be able to help you develop tools for yourself that they don't themselves possess.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
Just on the 'being an evangelist' thing - from a personal perspective, I've long-since realised that not everyone is interested in improving their driving, and of those that are, not all are prepared / able to put the time in to make it happen.
Can you leave room for the possibility that someone is interested in improving their driving but not through a coach? There are probably a dozen different learning styles and you are pretty much saying here that people that don't use yours are not interested.There are quite a few problems with just using yours. The main one is that a didactic style of teaching will never generate a student who is better than the teacher. Crudely speaking didactic teachers generate clones, although pretty efficiently it has to be said.
julian64 said:
Can you leave room for the possibility that someone is interested in improving their driving but not through a coach? There are probably a dozen different learning styles and you are pretty much saying here that people that don't use yours are not interested.
I hope I've not said anything that implies that. I'm happy to be on record stating that almost any form of actively thinking about, reading about or thoughtfully practicing driving is likely to be helpful.There are plenty of books and forum discussions around to stimulate that thinking, and I'd include this one in their number.
However, I'll go on to say that I don't believe it's possible for a driver to do it all on their own. There might be a driving unicorn somewhere that became the finished article after a study of Roadcraft, but that's absolutely not been my experience.
It's very hard for a driver to know what they don't know, and the simplest way to find out is to drive with other people whose opinion you value.
Drivers can get hold of the wrong end of the stick, or be reluctant to challenge their own beliefs and motivations. Working on those kinds of things is much easier with the help of a coach.
julian64 said:
There are quite a few problems with just using yours. The main one is that a didactic style of teaching will never generate a student who is better than the teacher. Crudely speaking didactic teachers generate clones, although pretty efficiently it has to be said.
Again, I'd resist the idea that the only learning style I'd consider involves getting the hairdryer treatment from someone with a gold watch from Hendon. I don't generally get on well with being told what to do, so my favourite people to learn from / with tend to be much less didactic than you assume.
I signed off my IAM associate last night, and over the last few months we've spent as much time stationary talking about his decision making and motivations as we have out on the road.
This seems like a good point to acknowledge the role of a series of posts made by vonhosen a few years back, just after his conversion to the church of coaching. Reading what he wrote (and reading a book by Ian Edwards) led me to some uncomfortable realisations, but hopefully also to a place where I can better assist people to get where they'd like to be.
The enthusiasm of Reg's clients certainly suggests that he's doing something that works with their individual preferred learning style.
S. Gonzales Esq. said:
There might be a driving unicorn somewhere that became the finished article after a study of Roadcraft
Certainly not. Roadcraft is definitely not the be-all and end-all, despite what the faithful like to think.There are other books out there too, with different emphasis and focus.
julian64 said:
Can you leave room for the possibility that someone is interested in improving their driving but not through a coach? There are probably a dozen different learning styles and you are pretty much saying here that people that don't use yours are not interested.
There are quite a few problems with just using yours. The main one is that a didactic style of teaching will never generate a student who is better than the teacher. Crudely speaking didactic teachers generate clones, although pretty efficiently it has to be said.
How does a coach provide a didactic style of teaching?There are quite a few problems with just using yours. The main one is that a didactic style of teaching will never generate a student who is better than the teacher. Crudely speaking didactic teachers generate clones, although pretty efficiently it has to be said.
didactic teaching as a concept is tautological anyway as didactic simply means 'designed or intended to teach'
and coaching is not teaching - yes there is technique within driving (which requires teaching), but a lot of what is being discussed above is about coaching - enabling the individual to move from A to B in their journey as a driver...
a good coach will work with the style of learning best suited to the learner - and that could be as specific as demonstrating how to H&T, or it could be as broad as setting up scenarios which help illustrate / help the learner to understand a particular example...
As I have said before, there is absolutely no need for anyone to progress in their driving - the vast majority of drivers have no interest in improvement, however for those who do wish to - while, any form of progress has to be a good thing, in reality there isn't a driver out there who will get zero benefit from time with a coach - plenty of drivers who believe that, but in reality we all have plenty to learn, and a coach (who is any good) will be able to help them...
and coaches continuously produce those who are way better than them - otherwise, how does anyone at the top of their skill set ever improve further as there is no-one better than them to teach them more... A typical sportsman will take training / coaching from several coaches (each of whom may have different skills with which they can assist), but equally they will have a coach to help push them further - that coach in e.g. Tennis may not be as good a tennis player, but can definitely have better skills in understanding the sportsman and helping them to progress - the individual is rarely the person who can best spot their own issues and work out how to fix them...
Edited by akirk on Friday 11th May 13:04
akirk said:
and coaches continuously produce those who are way better than them
Not sure that's true at all.akirk said:
otherwise, how does anyone at the top of their skill set ever improve further as there is no-one better than them to teach them more.
Practice, if enough natural talent is present.akirk said:
A typical sportsman will take training / coaching from several coaches (each of whom may have different skills with which they can assist
Plenty of sportspeople only have one sports coach. However they may employ the services of a sports psychologist, nutritionist etcakirk said:
but equally they will have a coach to help push them further - that coach in e.g. Tennis may not be as good a tennis player, but can definitely have better skills in understanding the sportsman
Unlikely. Unless the coach knows the player very well. Maybe you mean 'understanding the sportsperson's performance'? What the coach can bring is modern methods of establishing performance baselines and ways to improve individual factors in the players performance that the involved sportsperson may have overlooked or not been aware of.akirk said:
the individual is rarely the person who can best spot their own issues and work out how to fix them...
Generally true, it's certainly a lot easier if someone does the mental work for you. Practice can be time consuming. Is this an appropriate time to mention the Dunning-Kruger effect?
No?
Ok then.
Give me a day or so to respond though - busybusybusy at the moment!
No?
Ok then.
C7 JFW said:
Great thread, good to see the steps being implemented and people benefiting. It's enough to tempt me to drive to Bolton for.
I really enjoyed the humour in the book, it made sense and was easy to follow. I'm guessing a PM may be sufficient to organise a possible 'day'?
Yep. Or via my website www.reglocal.comI really enjoyed the humour in the book, it made sense and was easy to follow. I'm guessing a PM may be sufficient to organise a possible 'day'?
Give me a day or so to respond though - busybusybusy at the moment!
popeyewhite said:
akirk said:
and coaches continuously produce those who are way better than them
Not sure that's true at all.akirk said:
otherwise, how does anyone at the top of their skill set ever improve further as there is no-one better than them to teach them more.
Practice, if enough natural talent is present.akirk said:
A typical sportsman will take training / coaching from several coaches (each of whom may have different skills with which they can assist
Plenty of sportspeople only have one sports coach. However they may employ the services of a sports psychologist, nutritionist etcakirk said:
but equally they will have a coach to help push them further - that coach in e.g. Tennis may not be as good a tennis player, but can definitely have better skills in understanding the sportsman
Unlikely. Unless the coach knows the player very well. Maybe you mean 'understanding the sportsperson's performance'? What the coach can bring is modern methods of establishing performance baselines and ways to improve individual factors in the players performance that the involved sportsperson may have overlooked or not been aware of.akirk said:
the individual is rarely the person who can best spot their own issues and work out how to fix them...
Generally true, it's certainly a lot easier if someone does the mental work for you. Practice can be time consuming. And Andy Murray's restructuring of his serve etc. and coming back to no. 1 is a known event - if you are number 1 technically there is no player higher than you in the world at that time - yet he still has a coach and is still learning...
the parallels for driving are obvious - there are a lot of drivers who feel they have nothing left to learn / lots who feel a coach wouldn't make any difference / lots of drivers who drive at a level well below their self-belief - whether those cohorts overlap is perhaps interesting to explore?!
popeyewhite said:
akirk said:
and coaches continuously produce those who are way better than them
Not sure that's true at all.It's the same in any discipline. The best coaches are never as good as their best students.
edit: A bit late, but still valid.
Reg Local said:
Is this an appropriate time to mention the Dunning-Kruger effect?
No?
Ok then.
Well you can mention the effect but its usually misused as an insult on PH. However if you feel you can spot people who aren't as good at driving as you, but think they are, its still valid I guess.No?
Ok then.
Adamxck said:
popeyewhite said:
akirk said:
and coaches continuously produce those who are way better than them
Not sure that's true at all.It's the same in any discipline. The best coaches are never as good as their best students.
edit: A bit late, but still valid.
Edited by popeyewhite on Friday 11th May 16:26
akirk said:
I don't know all sports, but have been involved at coaching level in several - skiing / sailing / riding / tennis / shooting all being examples - and in every one of those I know multiple examples of coaches who are regularly turning out sportsmen / women who are way above the coach in ability to do the sport.
Seeing as how the coach has often retired that's not hard. akirk said:
I am a qualified tennis coach - and also a tennis referee - and in running competitions, (which I do, to national level), we see a lot of youngsters who are playing at rating levels well above their coaches - the norm for a coach might be an LTA rating of c. 4.1 / 3.2 but with players at 2.1 / 1.2 (scale goes 10.2, 10.1 / 9.2, 9.1 / etc.) so this is the norm, not an exception...
And Andy Murray's restructuring of his serve etc. and coming back to no. 1 is a known event - if you are number 1 technically there is no player higher than you in the world at that time - yet he still has a coach and is still learning...
Andy Murray is more or less the finished article. Any coaching input will be to sharpen a skill he already possesses. As in his serve.And Andy Murray's restructuring of his serve etc. and coming back to no. 1 is a known event - if you are number 1 technically there is no player higher than you in the world at that time - yet he still has a coach and is still learning...
akirk said:
the parallels for driving are obvious - there are a lot of drivers who feel they have nothing left to learn / lots who feel a coach wouldn't make any difference / lots of drivers who drive at a level well below their self-belief - whether those cohorts overlap is perhaps interesting to explore?!
Driving, like any skill, improves mostly with practice. Andy Murray would still be very nearly as good as he is right now with only a tiny bit of coaching input. Because he has a natural talent for tennis, helped by practice. If you coach running you'll know some are born quicker runners than others and any input you give the fast ones will help but it's the icing on the cake. Anyway practice driving - the physical skill - on the road. No coach needed. Driving theory you could learn in front of a screen at home, with a trainer if necessary.
popeyewhite said:
akirk said:
I don't know all sports, but have been involved at coaching level in several - skiing / sailing / riding / tennis / shooting all being examples - and in every one of those I know multiple examples of coaches who are regularly turning out sportsmen / women who are way above the coach in ability to do the sport.
Seeing as how the coach has often retired that's not hard. akirk said:
I am a qualified tennis coach - and also a tennis referee - and in running competitions, (which I do, to national level), we see a lot of youngsters who are playing at rating levels well above their coaches - the norm for a coach might be an LTA rating of c. 4.1 / 3.2 but with players at 2.1 / 1.2 (scale goes 10.2, 10.1 / 9.2, 9.1 / etc.) so this is the norm, not an exception...
And Andy Murray's restructuring of his serve etc. and coming back to no. 1 is a known event - if you are number 1 technically there is no player higher than you in the world at that time - yet he still has a coach and is still learning...
Andy Murray is more or less the finished article. Any coaching input will be to sharpen a skill he already possesses. As in his serve.And Andy Murray's restructuring of his serve etc. and coming back to no. 1 is a known event - if you are number 1 technically there is no player higher than you in the world at that time - yet he still has a coach and is still learning...
akirk said:
the parallels for driving are obvious - there are a lot of drivers who feel they have nothing left to learn / lots who feel a coach wouldn't make any difference / lots of drivers who drive at a level well below their self-belief - whether those cohorts overlap is perhaps interesting to explore?!
Driving, like any skill, improves mostly with practice. Andy Murray would still be very nearly as good as he is right now with only a tiny bit of coaching input. Because he has a natural talent for tennis, helped by practice. If you coach running you'll know some are born quicker runners than others and any input you give the fast ones will help but it's the icing on the cake. Anyway practice driving - the physical skill - on the road. No coach needed. Driving theory you could learn in front of a screen at home, with a trainer if necessary.
Andy Murray would be the first to say that he is nowhere near the finished article - even I (way below him in the rankings) can identify areas where he could still improve...
You may have your beliefs but for the majority of the world they have a different view - proven on the sports field / business board room / racetrack / etc. day in and day out - coaches bring a lot to the game - and without coaching, most would be far less than they are...
akirk said:
Well I think you have proved that if nothing else you know nothing about tennis
Andy Murray would be the first to say that he is nowhere near the finished article - even I (way below him in the rankings) can identify areas where he could still improve...
Not the same thing at all. One can be a world champion and still have faults. Most do. By 'the finished article' do you mean perfect?Andy Murray would be the first to say that he is nowhere near the finished article - even I (way below him in the rankings) can identify areas where he could still improve...
akirk said:
You may have your beliefs but for the majority of the world they have a different view - proven on the sports field / business board room / racetrack / etc. day in and day out - coaches bring a lot to the game - and without coaching, most would be far less than they are...
We're not talking about 'the game', we're discussing the coach's impact on a single player. My contention is that if the player is naturally talented one coach generally only makes a small difference.popeyewhite said:
Anyway practice driving - the physical skill - on the road. No coach needed. Driving theory you could learn in front of a screen at home, with a trainer if necessary.
A driving coach will probably give insights into what the driver is actually doing of which he would otherwise be unaware, and may help the driver work out why he is doing those things. He will suggest where practice may usefully be focused. In training mode he may give a demonstration illustrating what can be achieved far more effectively (and enjoyably) than can be achieved in front of a screen.popeyewhite said:
Anyway practice driving - the physical skill - on the road. No coach needed. Driving theory you could learn in front of a screen at home, with a trainer if necessary.
Do you see any value in coaching? If not, is there anything I might say that could persuade you of the value of coaching?How many really top sports players (eg, Andy Murray) don't have coaches? I can't think of any who are successful. Why do you think that might be?
After all that, if you think I might have a point
I'd suggest you google The Inner Game, or the GROW model of coaching.Good coaches don't tell you what to do. They help you to ask the right questions of yourself.
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