RE: Honda Integra Type R DC2: PH Buying Guide
Discussion
leonintegra36 said:
I found the earlier 98 spec UK cars more hardcore as rumour has it they were hand prepped on the line, but the later ones that came complete with momo steering wheels, were more civilised to use daily from experience.
This is interesting. I have a 98 banger, and a 99 (relatively) low miles car, having had a later very low miles car, which was immaculate, but which I sold - and regret it.The best car of the 3 to drive is my banger (earlier car). It does feel more raw, especially the diff. The two newer cars don't feel as aggressive, generally, but I might be confusing looseness of the banger against the tightness of the newer car. I do know that I definitely prefer the banger.
dc2rr07 said:
Seem to recall something like the first 50 cars had no radios and were different but not sure how exactly.
I know some of the early press cars didn’t have a radio/clock & I think A/C was an option (but doubtless not fitted) but aside from that I can’t think of any mechanical variationsI’ve driven 4 & all have felt pretty much the same from memory.
Mine shall be getting a lighter flywheel next week & a JDM 98 manifold & cat to finish it off. No other tweaks planned or necessary for me :-)
chrismc1977 said:
I know some of the early press cars didn’t have a radio/clock & I think A/C was an option (but doubtless not fitted) but aside from that I can’t think of any mechanical variations
I’ve driven 4 & all have felt pretty much the same from memory.
Mine shall be getting a lighter flywheel next week & a JDM 98 manifold & cat to finish it off. No other tweaks planned or necessary for me :-)
Yes the JDM manifold will certainly improve the car, not sure why the UK got stuck with that heavy lump.I’ve driven 4 & all have felt pretty much the same from memory.
Mine shall be getting a lighter flywheel next week & a JDM 98 manifold & cat to finish it off. No other tweaks planned or necessary for me :-)
leonintegra36 said:
Has to be Championship white on a dc2. Rust shouldn't be a factor on a weekend only example dc2. I believe £20k plus isn't unrealistic in the current climate for a top example dc2 as there are only a few top ones left. I found the earlier 98 spec UK cars more hardcore as rumour has it they were hand prepped on the line, but the later ones that came complete with momo steering wheels, were more civilised to use daily from experience. Engines were hand ported and polished, so all had an individual character. EVO mag have rated them since day one; I remember it caned a Ford Racing Puma on a wet handling test in EVO and they perceived it to be one of the greatest handling cars period. A Clio trophy doesn't have anywhere near the same engineering integrity in the drivetrain as a dc2. It really is a class above, like having a Caterham with a roof.
Caterham with a roof?! Sorry but nowhere near!And I don't remember the press saying it was that amazing at the time.
SidewaysSi said:
And I don't remember the press saying it was that amazing at the time.
? I thought all the reviews were pretty glowing about the DC2...They certainly ain’t for everyone-they were aimed at a niche market, - but as a focussed road going N/A fwd driving machine I don’t think it has been equalled.
When I drive mine I’m constantly reminded what a precise & capable tool it is in comparison to our family mk7 Golf GTD. Still utterly brilliant & hugely capable
My first championship white integra was fabulous but very raw and very raucous, so very quickly became a weekend car only. However it was a real weapon when in the mood and seemed shorter geared and generally less insulated than my subsequent dc2s', which were more civilised and smoother.
They are very good, no doubt but whilst the press liked it, it tended to be a "4 star" car ie. Very good but not truly amazing. It seems to have gained it's higher status around 2009 ish when EVO declared it best FWD car. However I did note that it did later lose to the Clio Trophy and, I believe, 205 GTI in their top 100 so I am not sure whether their opinions should be taken as gospel.
In comparison to a Golf, it will be sharp but not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
In comparison to a Golf, it will be sharp but not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
SidewaysSi said:
They are very good, no doubt but whilst the press liked it, it tended to be a "4 star" car ie. Very good but not truly amazing. It seems to have gained it's higher status around 2009 ish when EVO declared it best FWD car. However I did note that it did later lose to the Clio Trophy and, I believe, 205 GTI in their top 100 so I am not sure whether their opinions should be taken as gospel.
In comparison to a Golf, it will be sharp but not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
More fun than the Meganes in my view. Can’t think of anything fwd that’s better, that doesn’t have a Honda badge on it. In comparison to a Golf, it will be sharp but not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
Edited by Alpinestars on Friday 11th May 20:20
SidewaysSi said:
They are very good, no doubt but whilst the press liked it, it tended to be a "4 star" car ie. Very good but not truly amazing. It seems to have gained it's higher status around 2009 ish when EVO declared it best FWD car. However I did note that it did later lose to the Clio Trophy and, I believe, 205 GTI in their top 100 so I am not sure whether their opinions should be taken as gospel.
In comparison to a Golf, it will be sharp but not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
Press views varied- but then your average press man wouldn’t be used to something needing 6k+ revs all the time & driving it to within an inch of its life. Not all ‘got it’ I think. For me that’s it’s exact charm.In comparison to a Golf, it will be sharp but not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
As for the other cars mentioned, yeah all ‘very good’ as well. Everyone has favourites.
The diff, driving position, & especially the peach of a motor pip it over a Trophy or 205 for me.
Things have moved on for sure. Modern hyper hatches are miles quicker, but the vast majority are getting on for twice the power.
Give a DC2 a decent stretch of varied road & wearing some proper rubber a well-pedalled example will still loom in the mirrors of many technically ‘better’ machines though
The driver is likely to be having an absolute blast as well.
No it isn’t a Caterham or a tweaked Elise S1, but then neither of those are a supercharged Ariel Atom. Comparisons need to be fair....
Folk have of course brought Performance up to more modern levels by going K20 in the DC2....
Edited by chrismc1977 on Friday 11th May 20:21
Alpinestars said:
SidewaysSi said:
Caterham with a roof?! Sorry but nowhere near!
And I don't remember the press saying it was that amazing at the time.
Not many better fwd cars than one of these. And I don't remember the press saying it was that amazing at the time.
My MR2 Roadster is probably just as much, if not more fun as the Integra. The teg is much faster, and is an awesome car. It has a much better engine. It’s light and it handles very well. But it is a pretty big car, a tin top, and is much heavier than my MR2 let alone a Caterham. And its FWD, a RWD car of any description is still considerably different to drive (in a good way).
The teg really feels like a fairly large (but fairly), old school, very good hot hatch with a fairly insane engine. A sports car just has a totally different feel.
If I were to be given a choice between my DC2 and my current MR2 it would be a tough choice as they are both great, but totally different. The ITR was a bit of a weapon for its power, but the MR2 is just such good fun despite its relatively average engine. However, as a second car for the road or track I can’t imagine either car really be much like a Caterham. There is nothing really like those and an ITR is nothing like (but still extremely enjoyable and much more practical most of the time).
TameRacingDriver said:
I agree, it’s nowhere near a Caterham with a roof, in any respect.
My MR2 Roadster is probably just as much, if not more fun as the Integra. The teg is much faster, and is an awesome car. It has a much better engine. It’s light and it handles very well. But it is a pretty big car, a tin top, and is much heavier than my MR2 let alone a Caterham. And its FWD, a RWD car of any description is still considerably different to drive (in a good way).
The teg really feels like a fairly large (but fairly), old school, very good hot hatch with a fairly insane engine. A sports car just has a totally different feel.
If I were to be given a choice between my DC2 and my current MR2 it would be a tough choice as they are both great, but totally different. The ITR was a bit of a weapon for its power, but the MR2 is just such good fun despite its relatively average engine. However, as a second car for the road or track I can’t imagine either car really be much like a Caterham. There is nothing really like those and an ITR is nothing like (but still extremely enjoyable and much more practical most of the time).
Agree that it’s nothing like a Caterham. But an equally great car. MR2 is ok imv. Fun, but not on the same level as the DC2. My MR2 Roadster is probably just as much, if not more fun as the Integra. The teg is much faster, and is an awesome car. It has a much better engine. It’s light and it handles very well. But it is a pretty big car, a tin top, and is much heavier than my MR2 let alone a Caterham. And its FWD, a RWD car of any description is still considerably different to drive (in a good way).
The teg really feels like a fairly large (but fairly), old school, very good hot hatch with a fairly insane engine. A sports car just has a totally different feel.
If I were to be given a choice between my DC2 and my current MR2 it would be a tough choice as they are both great, but totally different. The ITR was a bit of a weapon for its power, but the MR2 is just such good fun despite its relatively average engine. However, as a second car for the road or track I can’t imagine either car really be much like a Caterham. There is nothing really like those and an ITR is nothing like (but still extremely enjoyable and much more practical most of the time).
I'm only 5 months into the ownership of my DC2, and am more impressed each time I drive it.
The chassis feels properly special and I really don't think it's steering is miles off an Elise S1 which I had as a daily driver for 2 years.
What is different is the confidence it gives you to push on. I can't see the average driver keeping up with a DC2 on a damp twisty B road.
Mine is a lovely 1 previous owner car with just 56,000 miles and I had intended to try it and move on, but I think it will be staying with me for a while yet.
I wouldn't say Caterham with a roof quite (I had one of those for 2 years too) but I don't think the comparison is totally ridiculous.
I still see them as under-valued too, but that's surely down to it being relatively unknown. Non-petrol-heads have absolutely no idea what it is or what it can do, unlike a Golf GTI or Focus RS etc.
The chassis feels properly special and I really don't think it's steering is miles off an Elise S1 which I had as a daily driver for 2 years.
What is different is the confidence it gives you to push on. I can't see the average driver keeping up with a DC2 on a damp twisty B road.
Mine is a lovely 1 previous owner car with just 56,000 miles and I had intended to try it and move on, but I think it will be staying with me for a while yet.
I wouldn't say Caterham with a roof quite (I had one of those for 2 years too) but I don't think the comparison is totally ridiculous.
I still see them as under-valued too, but that's surely down to it being relatively unknown. Non-petrol-heads have absolutely no idea what it is or what it can do, unlike a Golf GTI or Focus RS etc.
The paired back drivercentric ethos of the integra is similar to a Caterham if not in a wholly literal sense; simplify then add lightness. There is an inherent balance and tactility that makes an integra feel right after the first 100 yards due to the control weights feeling just so. The pedals are perfect for heel and toe and the gearchange has a rifle bolt mechanical quality. On a tight twisty b road there is not much to touch an integra flat out, even cars with twice the power. I prefer mine to have the airbox removed to have the banshee visceral noise closing in on 9000 revs.
SidewaysSi said:
...not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
I took mine to test-drive an S2 111R. Got back in the 'teg afterwards and aside from a lower power/weight ratio, I didn't really feel I was missing anything vs the Elise. That alone sealed me getting the NSX to run alongside the 'teg. DC2's powertrain is definitely better than ANY 4-pot Lotus engine except possibly the s'charged lump, chassis balance is on my limited experience pretty equal (and the 'teg is clearly friendlier around the limit), driving position is better, seat is MUCH better, control weights are more consistent, visibility is better. Oh, and little stuff like the HVAC actually works properly...And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
An S1 may be more focused / involving than an S2, but I think I'd still struggle to pick one over a DC2, certainly stock-for-stock.
A Caterham though...that's a different matter. Give me a Roadsport with the R300 engine and the better rear axle and I'd be happy as a pig in sh't. Or just an R300 with a full screen and different seats, maybe...utterly telepathic cars!
PS - RS Renault wouldn't get a look-in. Clio Trophy may have an equivalent chassis and torquier engine but the driving position, gearchange and build quality/reliability are all about two steps behind the 'teg. R26.R would be a hell of a track car but (a) it's turbocharged; and (b) rear seats?!?
We all have different standards but the steering was the worst part of the Integra. Really quite poor until you had some decent force through the diff when it became OK.
As I said I like them and have driven them extensively on road and track but think some people are getting somewhat carried away to think they are anywhere near as engaging as a Lotus/Caterham etc. If you are used to a Golf diesel then they must seem like a racing car. As a tintop they are good fun but, for example, I think most people will agree an R26R is a better car.
Saying journos didn't have the experience to rev past 6k and so didn't see how great they were when launched is skating on thin ice IMO. But we all believe what we want to...
Next you will be telling me that they are rawer than an F40..
As standard I was a little disappointed by them but I think a properly modded one could be a great old bus.
As I said I like them and have driven them extensively on road and track but think some people are getting somewhat carried away to think they are anywhere near as engaging as a Lotus/Caterham etc. If you are used to a Golf diesel then they must seem like a racing car. As a tintop they are good fun but, for example, I think most people will agree an R26R is a better car.
Saying journos didn't have the experience to rev past 6k and so didn't see how great they were when launched is skating on thin ice IMO. But we all believe what we want to...
Next you will be telling me that they are rawer than an F40..
As standard I was a little disappointed by them but I think a properly modded one could be a great old bus.
havoc said:
SidewaysSi said:
...not sure I would take one over an RS Renault. And particularly for the same money, I think a Megane would be the more fun.
And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
I took mine to test-drive an S2 111R. Got back in the 'teg afterwards and aside from a lower power/weight ratio, I didn't really feel I was missing anything vs the Elise. That alone sealed me getting the NSX to run alongside the 'teg. DC2's powertrain is definitely better than ANY 4-pot Lotus engine except possibly the s'charged lump, chassis balance is on my limited experience pretty equal (and the 'teg is clearly friendlier around the limit), driving position is better, seat is MUCH better, control weights are more consistent, visibility is better. Oh, and little stuff like the HVAC actually works properly...And comparisons to Caterhams are ridiculous. And yes, I ran a DC2 for 5 years on road and track. And had a Caterham and modified Elise S1 at the same time.
It was a nice collection but if I wanted a good fun blast, not once did I think of taking the Honda over the others.
An S1 may be more focused / involving than an S2, but I think I'd still struggle to pick one over a DC2, certainly stock-for-stock.
A Caterham though...that's a different matter. Give me a Roadsport with the R300 engine and the better rear axle and I'd be happy as a pig in sh't. Or just an R300 with a full screen and different seats, maybe...utterly telepathic cars!
PS - RS Renault wouldn't get a look-in. Clio Trophy may have an equivalent chassis and torquier engine but the driving position, gearchange and build quality/reliability are all about two steps behind the 'teg. R26.R would be a hell of a track car but (a) it's turbocharged; and (b) rear seats?!?
The drivetrain of the Honda is certainly lovely though - I quite fancy an EG Civic with a K20
As for Lotuses, they are quite different depending on engine (height and mass) and geo set up. My S1 has a relatively punchy K Series wih Hurricane induction, Larini exhaust, lightweight flywheel, LSD and ultra close ratio straight cut 'box. Somewhat unfair but I would pick it over the Honda
. And it drifts with ease...Steering wise, a Caterham is a RR in comparison. Maybe I should reacquaint myself with the old Honda at some point, though think an FD2 maybe more my sort of fun family shopper these days.
Some horses for courses here...
I had a DC2R for 11 years, swore i'd never sell it and then sold it to make room for an Elise 111R which cost me more than 7 times what i got for the integra.
I remember taking the teg for a warm up drive before someone came around to view it (just to check everything as it had been sitting for a while....) and compared to the Elise that i'd had a month of two, i was struck by how ordinary it felt tootling around like you do 90% of the time. The Elise always feels special to me, the steering, the feel through the seat of the pants. Get some weight transfer happening and it feels incredible and unlike anything I've ever driven or sat in...
I think the DC2R is one of the greatest cars ever, in terms of what it gives a driver. But compared to their reputation i think they are only magical at certain times, they need the right road to shine. They are still better than most other things the rest of the time also, but not necessarily as good as their reputation suggests. Find a flowing, undulating road with good visibility, any surface, rough smooth etc, where you can stretch out 3rd gear and it's fantastic. Other times like tighter rougher roads and they can torque steer in 2nd etc...
Oh! and as soon as you start modifying the suspension of the teg all of that goes out of the window.
Better driving position, engine, gear change, throttle response than the Elise, more approachable, softer edged, more progressive and forgiving handling that the Elise...they're pretty damn good! Overall they are 'better' than the Elise as they are better resolved all around. But they don't really compare in other ways, and the things the Elise does well, it does so well, and those things are so special that it makes it a more involving and exciting experience.
@SidewaysSi I wish i could experience that handling of your Elise. I haven't heard anyone else claim to have it set up so progressive and driftable. Did you ever get the actual specs of your geo? I've love to know.
I had a DC2R for 11 years, swore i'd never sell it and then sold it to make room for an Elise 111R which cost me more than 7 times what i got for the integra.
I remember taking the teg for a warm up drive before someone came around to view it (just to check everything as it had been sitting for a while....) and compared to the Elise that i'd had a month of two, i was struck by how ordinary it felt tootling around like you do 90% of the time. The Elise always feels special to me, the steering, the feel through the seat of the pants. Get some weight transfer happening and it feels incredible and unlike anything I've ever driven or sat in...
I think the DC2R is one of the greatest cars ever, in terms of what it gives a driver. But compared to their reputation i think they are only magical at certain times, they need the right road to shine. They are still better than most other things the rest of the time also, but not necessarily as good as their reputation suggests. Find a flowing, undulating road with good visibility, any surface, rough smooth etc, where you can stretch out 3rd gear and it's fantastic. Other times like tighter rougher roads and they can torque steer in 2nd etc...
Oh! and as soon as you start modifying the suspension of the teg all of that goes out of the window.
Better driving position, engine, gear change, throttle response than the Elise, more approachable, softer edged, more progressive and forgiving handling that the Elise...they're pretty damn good! Overall they are 'better' than the Elise as they are better resolved all around. But they don't really compare in other ways, and the things the Elise does well, it does so well, and those things are so special that it makes it a more involving and exciting experience.
@SidewaysSi I wish i could experience that handling of your Elise. I haven't heard anyone else claim to have it set up so progressive and driftable. Did you ever get the actual specs of your geo? I've love to know.
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