RE: Honda Integra Type R DC2: PH Buying Guide
Discussion
Fancied an elise but recall a box fresh Lotus Elise S1 Type 49 flew up behind me in the damp lights ablazing. I made my impending departure from the lights, but the lotus lurched away tractionless in my mirrors - only to fishtail into third and end up backwards into the railings opposite. Bonded tub a write off. Lightweight mid engined rear wheel drive twitchyness is not always so well received/resolved. I held allegiance with the integra after that.
sege said:
Some horses for courses here...
I had a DC2R for 11 years, swore i'd never sell it and then sold it to make room for an Elise 111R which cost me more than 7 times what i got for the integra.
I remember taking the teg for a warm up drive before someone came around to view it (just to check everything as it had been sitting for a while....) and compared to the Elise that i'd had a month of two, i was struck by how ordinary it felt tootling around like you do 90% of the time. The Elise always feels special to me, the steering, the feel through the seat of the pants. Get some weight transfer happening and it feels incredible and unlike anything I've ever driven or sat in...
I think the DC2R is one of the greatest cars ever, in terms of what it gives a driver. But compared to their reputation i think they are only magical at certain times, they need the right road to shine. They are still better than most other things the rest of the time also, but not necessarily as good as their reputation suggests. Find a flowing, undulating road with good visibility, any surface, rough smooth etc, where you can stretch out 3rd gear and it's fantastic. Other times like tighter rougher roads and they can torque steer in 2nd etc...
Oh! and as soon as you start modifying the suspension of the teg all of that goes out of the window.
Better driving position, engine, gear change, throttle response than the Elise, more approachable, softer edged, more progressive and forgiving handling that the Elise...they're pretty damn good! Overall they are 'better' than the Elise as they are better resolved all around. But they don't really compare in other ways, and the things the Elise does well, it does so well, and those things are so special that it makes it a more involving and exciting experience.
@SidewaysSi I wish i could experience that handling of your Elise. I haven't heard anyone else claim to have it set up so progressive and driftable. Did you ever get the actual specs of your geo? I've love to know.
Sege, I get my geo reset every 12-18 months so will let you know. It is due one soon to be honest. I had a DC2R for 11 years, swore i'd never sell it and then sold it to make room for an Elise 111R which cost me more than 7 times what i got for the integra.
I remember taking the teg for a warm up drive before someone came around to view it (just to check everything as it had been sitting for a while....) and compared to the Elise that i'd had a month of two, i was struck by how ordinary it felt tootling around like you do 90% of the time. The Elise always feels special to me, the steering, the feel through the seat of the pants. Get some weight transfer happening and it feels incredible and unlike anything I've ever driven or sat in...
I think the DC2R is one of the greatest cars ever, in terms of what it gives a driver. But compared to their reputation i think they are only magical at certain times, they need the right road to shine. They are still better than most other things the rest of the time also, but not necessarily as good as their reputation suggests. Find a flowing, undulating road with good visibility, any surface, rough smooth etc, where you can stretch out 3rd gear and it's fantastic. Other times like tighter rougher roads and they can torque steer in 2nd etc...
Oh! and as soon as you start modifying the suspension of the teg all of that goes out of the window.
Better driving position, engine, gear change, throttle response than the Elise, more approachable, softer edged, more progressive and forgiving handling that the Elise...they're pretty damn good! Overall they are 'better' than the Elise as they are better resolved all around. But they don't really compare in other ways, and the things the Elise does well, it does so well, and those things are so special that it makes it a more involving and exciting experience.
@SidewaysSi I wish i could experience that handling of your Elise. I haven't heard anyone else claim to have it set up so progressive and driftable. Did you ever get the actual specs of your geo? I've love to know.
Tales of fishtailing Elises are much like those of 911s and we don't talk of 997 GT3s crashing for no reason. Drive it like a complete t
t and an early car will bite if on P Zero tyres and a factory set up. But we don't live in 1996 any more and most cars are driven by enthusiasts who appreciate the need to upgrade bits as they wear out. The cars can be made to drive how you want them to, such is the range of adjustment.Mine is on Nitron 450/525 1 way dampers with a 110/120 ride height and 340R settings. With the Quaife LSD, flywheel and gearset, it is incredibly predictable and slideable. A sorted Elise is quite a few rungs up the excitement and interaction ladder than any FWD car.
Of course if you want safe and easy, a FWD car would be better e.g. the chap above but surely most of us like to develop and expand our driving skillset, don't we?
SidewaysSi said:
But we don't live in 1996 any more and most cars are driven by enthusiasts who appreciate the need to upgrade bits as they wear out.
A sorted Elise is quite a few rungs up the excitement and interaction ladder than any FWD car.
Do you not think the same applies to any DC2 owners then? Decent ones are also enthusiast owned nowadaysA sorted Elise is quite a few rungs up the excitement and interaction ladder than any FWD car.
Sure many are leggy &/or cheaply modded without careful thought- but good ones still exist.
A sorted Elise IS better no doubt. Somewhat stating the obvious there chap....
I had my dc2 totally broadside on an uphill tight lefthand climb whilst on it, yet miraculously remained on the blacktop without losing too much time. Defying the laws of physics and losing courage I lifted momentarily and remember the diff bite hard and pull me round as I corrected. It was enough excitement. I think a Spoon modded dc2 would keep most cars honest on track.
chrismc1977 said:
SidewaysSi said:
But we don't live in 1996 any more and most cars are driven by enthusiasts who appreciate the need to upgrade bits as they wear out.
A sorted Elise is quite a few rungs up the excitement and interaction ladder than any FWD car.
Do you not think the same applies to any DC2 owners then? Decent ones are also enthusiast owned nowadaysA sorted Elise is quite a few rungs up the excitement and interaction ladder than any FWD car.
Sure many are leggy &/or cheaply modded without careful thought- but good ones still exist.
A sorted Elise IS better no doubt. Somewhat stating the obvious there chap....
As for stating the obvious...Not really old mucker. The Honda is known to be pretty much optimised out of the box so doesn't need sharpening but plenty of other cars come alive with the right tweaks, which improve them considerably.
The Lotus is one but so are various older BMWs, Porsche 911s, Alfas e.g. the 147 GTA etc.
Alpinestars said:
Agree that it’s nothing like a Caterham. But an equally great car. MR2 is ok imv. Fun, but not on the same level as the DC2.
I wouldn't knock the MR2. OK its slower and the engine isn't as good, but its RWD, mid engined and convertible, it is absolutely as much fun in its own way.Now, an MR2 with the same engine would be in another league entirely.
SidewaysSi said:
The Honda is known to be pretty much optimised out of the box so doesn't need sharpening but plenty of other cars come alive with the right tweaks, which improve them considerably.
The Lotus is one but so are various older BMWs, Porsche 911s, Alfas e.g. the 147 GTA etc.
...and I think that's a key point.The Lotus is one but so are various older BMWs, Porsche 911s, Alfas e.g. the 147 GTA etc.
Some people don't want to have to modify a car to enjoy it fully...they expect the engineers to have done the hard work for them. With the DC2 that is most definitely the case, whereas with some other "driver's cars" it's surprisingly not.
The struggle for me in deciding whether to get another (if funds / driveway space / wife permit) is finding one that, as noted above, doesn't need a good few £k spent on it. They've all spent too long languishing near the bargain-basement territory and many have been unnecessarily / badly modded (blame the Jap scene).
havoc said:
...and I think that's a key point.
Some people don't want to have to modify a car to enjoy it fully...they expect the engineers to have done the hard work for them. With the DC2 that is most definitely the case, whereas with some other "driver's cars" it's surprisingly not.
The struggle for me in deciding whether to get another (if funds / driveway space / wife permit) is finding one that, as noted above, doesn't need a good few £k spent on it. They've all spent too long languishing near the bargain-basement territory and many have been unnecessarily / badly modded (blame the Jap scene).
Have to agree, the teg was one of the few cars I didn't feel the need to modify. Was really sorted out of the box.Some people don't want to have to modify a car to enjoy it fully...they expect the engineers to have done the hard work for them. With the DC2 that is most definitely the case, whereas with some other "driver's cars" it's surprisingly not.
The struggle for me in deciding whether to get another (if funds / driveway space / wife permit) is finding one that, as noted above, doesn't need a good few £k spent on it. They've all spent too long languishing near the bargain-basement territory and many have been unnecessarily / badly modded (blame the Jap scene).
TameRacingDriver said:
havoc said:
...and I think that's a key point.
Some people don't want to have to modify a car to enjoy it fully...they expect the engineers to have done the hard work for them. With the DC2 that is most definitely the case, whereas with some other "driver's cars" it's surprisingly not.
The struggle for me in deciding whether to get another (if funds / driveway space / wife permit) is finding one that, as noted above, doesn't need a good few £k spent on it. They've all spent too long languishing near the bargain-basement territory and many have been unnecessarily / badly modded (blame the Jap scene).
Have to agree, the teg was one of the few cars I didn't feel the need to modify. Was really sorted out of the box.Some people don't want to have to modify a car to enjoy it fully...they expect the engineers to have done the hard work for them. With the DC2 that is most definitely the case, whereas with some other "driver's cars" it's surprisingly not.
The struggle for me in deciding whether to get another (if funds / driveway space / wife permit) is finding one that, as noted above, doesn't need a good few £k spent on it. They've all spent too long languishing near the bargain-basement territory and many have been unnecessarily / badly modded (blame the Jap scene).
I used TGM through to service mine but the one upgrade I asked them about was removing the PAS but in the end it wasn't deemed wise unfortunately.
SidewaysSi said:
Thank God some sense has returned. Here I was thinking the Integra was deemed to be better than a Caterham, Elise, F40, Zonda...
As for stating the obvious...Not really old mucker. The Honda is known to be pretty much optimised out of the box so doesn't need sharpening but plenty of other cars come alive with the right tweaks, which improve them considerably.
The Lotus is one but so are various older BMWs, Porsche 911s, Alfas e.g. the 147 GTA etc.
But then you aren’t comparing apples with apples. An Integra vs an Elise or a Caterham isn’t a hugely fair comparison. FWD 1100kgs vs RWD sports cars weighing considerably less. A pretty obvious conclusion. The fact others mention them in the same breath is praise enough..As for stating the obvious...Not really old mucker. The Honda is known to be pretty much optimised out of the box so doesn't need sharpening but plenty of other cars come alive with the right tweaks, which improve them considerably.
The Lotus is one but so are various older BMWs, Porsche 911s, Alfas e.g. the 147 GTA etc.
Maybe compare the Integra to its contemporary tin top offerings of the late 90’s at the same price point?
As for being optimised- Honda clearly did a better job out of the box than its rivals-delivering something you could happily drive daily and then go & have real fun on track without any need to tweak to make it ‘come alive’.
No different to anything else in that you can improve performance if so desired. Not cheap & very much subject to the law of diminishing returns but doable nonetheless
chrismc1977 said:
But then you aren’t comparing apples with apples. An Integra vs an Elise or a Caterham isn’t a hugely fair comparison. FWD 1100kgs vs RWD sports cars weighing considerably less. A pretty obvious conclusion. The fact others mention them in the same breath is praise enough..
[b]Maybe compare the Integra to its contemporary tin top offerings of the late 90’s at the same price point?
[/b]
As for being optimised- Honda clearly did a better job out of the box than its rivals-delivering something you could happily drive daily and then go & have real fun on track without any need to tweak to make it ‘come alive’.
No different to anything else in that you can improve performance if so desired. Not cheap & very much subject to the law of diminishing returns but doable nonetheless
A proper twin test with the Toyota TRD Sport M would be a great test to read[b]Maybe compare the Integra to its contemporary tin top offerings of the late 90’s at the same price point?
[/b]
As for being optimised- Honda clearly did a better job out of the box than its rivals-delivering something you could happily drive daily and then go & have real fun on track without any need to tweak to make it ‘come alive’.
No different to anything else in that you can improve performance if so desired. Not cheap & very much subject to the law of diminishing returns but doable nonetheless
Probably the most similar car on paper I'd say - fwd, LSD, revvy engine good for 8k, bucket seats, prepped shell and special bits
A test over country roads not just on track like Best Motoring did
A Z3 2.8 or E46 325/328 can and did post similar times on a fast smooth track but I don't see them as competitors to be fair
I've been enjoying reading this debate about the Integra this weekend. I blame Pistonheads for stirring this up again. It seems like a continuation of where we left off around this time back in 2017. For anyone not aware, here is the link https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Doesn't seem like individual opinions have changed much. I love it though, the DC2 forum seems a bit quiet nowadays so long may the debate continue on Pistonheads to keep the Integra alive in the minds of driving enthusiasts old and new!
Doesn't seem like individual opinions have changed much. I love it though, the DC2 forum seems a bit quiet nowadays so long may the debate continue on Pistonheads to keep the Integra alive in the minds of driving enthusiasts old and new!
chrismc1977 said:
SidewaysSi said:
Thank God some sense has returned. Here I was thinking the Integra was deemed to be better than a Caterham, Elise, F40, Zonda...
As for stating the obvious...Not really old mucker. The Honda is known to be pretty much optimised out of the box so doesn't need sharpening but plenty of other cars come alive with the right tweaks, which improve them considerably.
The Lotus is one but so are various older BMWs, Porsche 911s, Alfas e.g. the 147 GTA etc.
But then you aren’t comparing apples with apples. An Integra vs an Elise or a Caterham isn’t a hugely fair comparison. FWD 1100kgs vs RWD sports cars weighing considerably less. A pretty obvious conclusion. The fact others mention them in the same breath is praise enough..As for stating the obvious...Not really old mucker. The Honda is known to be pretty much optimised out of the box so doesn't need sharpening but plenty of other cars come alive with the right tweaks, which improve them considerably.
The Lotus is one but so are various older BMWs, Porsche 911s, Alfas e.g. the 147 GTA etc.
Maybe compare the Integra to its contemporary tin top offerings of the late 90’s at the same price point?
As for being optimised- Honda clearly did a better job out of the box than its rivals-delivering something you could happily drive daily and then go & have real fun on track without any need to tweak to make it ‘come alive’.
No different to anything else in that you can improve performance if so desired. Not cheap & very much subject to the law of diminishing returns but doable nonetheless
I must try to dig out the original road tests at the time...I don't remember them being amazingly glowing to be fair.
s m - do you have any to hand?
SidewaysSi said:
I must try to dig out the original road tests at the time...I don't remember them being amazingly glowing to be fair.
I think the core criticisms were:-- Ride, which in the context of the present day is laughable, and reflects the amateurish nature of many journalists - I always found the secondary ride very good, and the primary ride is clearly better than a 2005 Golf GTi on the optional 18"s.
- Torque, or rather lack thereof. Which is fair, but to me misses the point of the car. A torquier engine would have added weight in the nose (bigger capacity or FI, plus more robust gearbox, plus the vicious circle to deal with it).
- "Too raw", which again both misses the point and in the context of the present day is laughable.
I think in many ways it (like the 964RS) was ahead of its' time. And I'd suggest that it's even more relevant today than it was 20 years ago. There's probably an element of rose-tints in that, but I drove mine initially in-period and 10-5 years ago and I still haven't experienced anything (Caterham and exotica wholly excepted) which genuinely eclipses it.
SidewaysSi said:
I think it was some deluded posters earlier in the thread who compared them. Not people who actually know about cars and driving.
I must try to dig out the original road tests at the time...I don't remember them being amazingly glowing to be fair.
s m - do you have any to hand?
Nothing beats real life experience. Journalists are there to drum up interest, how cars feel is not objective, you’d be looking at contemporary reviews, which with the benefit of hindsight don’t stack up. I must try to dig out the original road tests at the time...I don't remember them being amazingly glowing to be fair.
s m - do you have any to hand?
As I said earlier, I can’t think of a better fwd drivers’ car unless it’s another Honda. I’ve owned all sorts including R26R, FRS’, Clios, Puma Racing, 205s, VAGs etc.
havoc said:
I think the core criticisms were:-
- Ride, which in the context of the present day is laughable, and reflects the amateurish nature of many journalists - I always found the secondary ride very good, and the primary ride is clearly better than a 2005 Golf GTi on the optional 18"s.
- Torque, or rather lack thereof. Which is fair, but to me misses the point of the car. A torquier engine would have added weight in the nose (bigger capacity or FI, plus more robust gearbox, plus the vicious circle to deal with it).
- "Too raw", which again both misses the point and in the context of the present day is laughable.
I think in many ways it (like the 964RS) was ahead of its' time. And I'd suggest that it's even more relevant today than it was 20 years ago. There's probably an element of rose-tints in that, but I drove mine initially in-period and 10-5 years ago and I still haven't experienced anything (Caterham and exotica wholly excepted) which genuinely eclipses it.
^This.- Ride, which in the context of the present day is laughable, and reflects the amateurish nature of many journalists - I always found the secondary ride very good, and the primary ride is clearly better than a 2005 Golf GTi on the optional 18"s.
- Torque, or rather lack thereof. Which is fair, but to me misses the point of the car. A torquier engine would have added weight in the nose (bigger capacity or FI, plus more robust gearbox, plus the vicious circle to deal with it).
- "Too raw", which again both misses the point and in the context of the present day is laughable.
I think in many ways it (like the 964RS) was ahead of its' time. And I'd suggest that it's even more relevant today than it was 20 years ago. There's probably an element of rose-tints in that, but I drove mine initially in-period and 10-5 years ago and I still haven't experienced anything (Caterham and exotica wholly excepted) which genuinely eclipses it.
‘Torque’. Rev it!! Yes it might only have ~130lbs/ft, but it’s light on its toes & very aerodynamic. It never ever feels flat. There isn’t a sweeter N/A motor to rev out in any case. So it revs a bit higher at cruising speeds- get used to it- it’s a Honda. It also revs higher than most N/A engines & thrives on them. A Ford CVH it is not....
‘Too raw’- absolute rubbish. Yeah it’s a bit vocal in the engine department due to the revs, but hardly requiring ear defenders. It’s a good noise!
Comes back to my point about the journos. Laughable indeed!!!!
SidewaysSi said:
I think it was some deluded posters earlier in the thread who compared them. Not people who actually know about cars and driving.
I must try to dig out the original road tests at the time...I don't remember them being amazingly glowing to be fair.
s m - do you have any to hand?
After testing 15 brilliant front-drivers, the Integra tops the list and the concluding comments are as follows: " it's a car sweet and all-consuming as any I've experienced at any price, and as pure and focused in its own way as any Porsche RS. Forget the accolade of greatest front - wheel - drive car. The Integra Type-R ranks as one of the truly great drivers' cars of any kind"I must try to dig out the original road tests at the time...I don't remember them being amazingly glowing to be fair.
s m - do you have any to hand?
Excerpts taken from Evo magazine, The Thrill of Driving, issue 95, Sept 2006
leonintegra36 said:
Fancied an elise but recall a box fresh Lotus Elise S1 Type 49 flew up behind me in the damp lights ablazing. I made my impending departure from the lights, but the lotus lurched away tractionless in my mirrors - only to fishtail into third and end up backwards into the railings opposite. Bonded tub a write off. Lightweight mid engined rear wheel drive twitchyness is not always so well received/resolved. I held allegiance with the integra after that.
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