Horses shouldn't be allowed on the country roads
Discussion
Tannedbaldhead said:
Fault lay with the organizers for no advanced signage or no warning signage at the time.
Umm, no.It's not down to other road users to make allowance for people racing on the road, which is what signage implies. It's down to those racing to apply the same road sense as they would if they were going to the shops or work.
Buggyjam said:
Tannedbaldhead said:
Racers race. The consequences of this are what they are. Competitors, spectators and the wrong people in the wrong place die let alone horses getting spooked. It is the job of the organizers to mitigate against this.
Totally missing the point. Racers race but on race tracks or closed roads at events. Cycling has an alleviation to use open public highways but with a lot of caveats..That's not to say the cyclists aren't to blame, just that the organisers should expect it and do something to prevent it. One of those things where you have to deal with reality, rather than just pointing at the rulebook.
As someone who took part in a triathlon on sunday on open roads (not that one) that cycling is disgraceful. As well as breaching the rules of the road theres clear draughting going on as well, most of those riders should be disqualified for that alone.
To be honest if people were properly following the rules with regards to draughting that situation should never have arose in the first place. Absolute idiots.
I think the rules around draughting are basically what stops it being a race and turns it into a time trial therefore making it legal on a road.
In my race on sunday in the last mile of the ride I hit heavy traffic in the last mile or so, i could have easily have shot down the outside of the traffic and saved myself a minute or two. I chose not to because not getting myself killed is more important than a minute in a race I am never going to win anyway.
To be honest if people were properly following the rules with regards to draughting that situation should never have arose in the first place. Absolute idiots.
I think the rules around draughting are basically what stops it being a race and turns it into a time trial therefore making it legal on a road.
In my race on sunday in the last mile of the ride I hit heavy traffic in the last mile or so, i could have easily have shot down the outside of the traffic and saved myself a minute or two. I chose not to because not getting myself killed is more important than a minute in a race I am never going to win anyway.
ED209 said:
As someone who took part in a triathlon on sunday on open roads (not that one) that cycling is disgraceful. As well as breaching the rules of the road theres clear draughting going on as well, most of those riders should be disqualified for that alone.
To be honest if people were properly following the rules with regards to draughting that situation should never have arose in the first place. Absolute idiots.
I think the rules around draughting are basically what stops it being a race and turns it into a time trial therefore making it legal on a road.
In my race on sunday in the last mile of the ride I hit heavy traffic in the last mile or so, i could have easily have shot down the outside of the traffic and saved myself a minute or two. I chose not to because not getting myself killed is more important than a minute in a race I am never going to win anyway.
Isnt a time trial where riders set off at regular intervals so they cant do draughting or peloton forming?To be honest if people were properly following the rules with regards to draughting that situation should never have arose in the first place. Absolute idiots.
I think the rules around draughting are basically what stops it being a race and turns it into a time trial therefore making it legal on a road.
In my race on sunday in the last mile of the ride I hit heavy traffic in the last mile or so, i could have easily have shot down the outside of the traffic and saved myself a minute or two. I chose not to because not getting myself killed is more important than a minute in a race I am never going to win anyway.
There'll still be the pressure to under/overtake slow traffic though
saaby93 said:
Isnt a time trial where riders set off at regular intervals so they cant do draughting or peloton forming?
There'll still be the pressure to under/overtake slow traffic though
Well that happens in some triathlons which have staggered starts, even without a staggered start the riders should still be separated and not in a peloton firstly because its against the rules and also because after swimming 2.4/1.2 miles the field is well separated anyway..There'll still be the pressure to under/overtake slow traffic though
I cannot excuse that behaviour though in any way.
If we could just go back to when these people took their rage out on black people or women I think all these new issues would go away. These people are clearly struggling since the bans on traditional hating and no one is stepping up to help them. They’ve been abandoned by the State.
Imagine being a kid today and growing up in a society where there is no chosen group to naturally hate and blame for everything that you mess up in your life? It must be how it was back in the 40s when they stopped being able to hate and blame Jews, the Nazis had created jobs for women and before they were saved by all the West Indians arriving. Those must have been bleak days for the neurotic hater community.
Imagine being a kid today and growing up in a society where there is no chosen group to naturally hate and blame for everything that you mess up in your life? It must be how it was back in the 40s when they stopped being able to hate and blame Jews, the Nazis had created jobs for women and before they were saved by all the West Indians arriving. Those must have been bleak days for the neurotic hater community.
DonkeyApple said:
If we could just go back to when these people took their rage out on black people or women I think all these new issues would go away. These people are clearly struggling since the bans on traditional hating and no one is stepping up to help them. They’ve been abandoned by the State.
Imagine being a kid today and growing up in a society where there is no chosen group to naturally hate and blame for everything that you mess up in your life? It must be how it was back in the 40s when they stopped being able to hate and blame Jews, the Nazis had created jobs for women and before they were saved by all the West Indians arriving. Those must have been bleak days for the neurotic hater community.
Which thread are you in?Imagine being a kid today and growing up in a society where there is no chosen group to naturally hate and blame for everything that you mess up in your life? It must be how it was back in the 40s when they stopped being able to hate and blame Jews, the Nazis had created jobs for women and before they were saved by all the West Indians arriving. Those must have been bleak days for the neurotic hater community.
CrutyRammers said:
That's not to say the cyclists aren't to blame, just that the organisers should expect it and do something to prevent it. One of those things where you have to deal with reality, rather than just pointing at the rulebook.
The organisers should foresee that and take steps to mitigate it, not just say "well it's up to the competitors to behave properly", because it's completely predictable that some of them wont.
I’ve already discussed this exact point more than once on previous posts. I mentioned that organisers have a responsibility to work with the authorities portraying and assessing risks associated with their planned event. The organisers should foresee that and take steps to mitigate it, not just say "well it's up to the competitors to behave properly", because it's completely predictable that some of them wont.
However...
This is not to be confused with the choices, actions and culpability of a rider.
I was responded to this in context. I noticed cyclists being characterised as some collective group of racers, divorced from the isolated responsibility that any road user accepts. This is where you should point at the rule book. All else builds form there. The very existence of racing on roads relies on an understanding of the obligations. Cyclists on the road accept full ownership for their personal actions under the road traffic act exactly the same as any road user, regardless of the seperate responsibilities of organisers.
CrutyRammers said:
I think his point is that, if you are going to organise a race, you must expect that the competitors will behave as if it's a race, regardless of what they should do.
There is no formal training, testing, or expectation for other road users to have a working knowledge of various forms of hobby racing or actions its various participants might do within that sport. Rather drive defensively and be prepared, the same as any situation on the road. Rather than divorcing from the rules citing “real world”, this is why triangulating back to the rules is crucial to avoid scenarios such as the one being discussed. Clearly in “the real world” misunderstanding regarding culpability and acceptable behaviour on the road manifests in cycle racing.
TooMany2cvs said:
Umm, no.
It's not down to other road users to make allowance for people racing on the road, which is what signage implies. It's down to those racing to apply the same road sense as they would if they were going to the shops or work.
I assume if there were traffic lights on that road they would all have gone though on a red light. That seems to be the norm in London from regular cyclists going to the shops or work. It's not down to other road users to make allowance for people racing on the road, which is what signage implies. It's down to those racing to apply the same road sense as they would if they were going to the shops or work.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Check this out. Normally driving flat out on loose surfaces at crowds of people would be considered as unacceptable behaviour. Listening to Colin McRae speak to his co-driver there is no doubt he is fully aware of the dangers of his situation yet he continues to drive at full speed. In spite of this, had he killed someone his innocence would have been absolute as would be the organizers' guilt.
Racers race. The consequences of this are what they are. Competitors, spectators and the wrong people in the wrong place die let alone horses getting spooked. It is the job of the organizers to mitigate against this.
What a stupid thing to say.Racers race. The consequences of this are what they are. Competitors, spectators and the wrong people in the wrong place die let alone horses getting spooked. It is the job of the organizers to mitigate against this.
Buggyjam said:
There is no formal training, testing, or expectation for other road users to have a working knowledge of various forms of hobby racing or actions its various participants might do within that sport. Rather drive defensively and be prepared, the same as any situation on the road.
Rather than divorcing from the rules citing “real world”, this is why triangulating back to the rules is crucial to avoid scenarios such as the one being discussed. Clearly in “the real world” misunderstanding regarding culpability and acceptable behaviour on the road manifests in cycle racing.
I don't think we're disagreeing really - a number of people seemed to be having a go at tannedballedhead but I think he's largely right. The riders are culpable, definately. But if you put people in a racing situation, some of them will always take extra risks to go faster. Organisers should understand and expect this.Rather than divorcing from the rules citing “real world”, this is why triangulating back to the rules is crucial to avoid scenarios such as the one being discussed. Clearly in “the real world” misunderstanding regarding culpability and acceptable behaviour on the road manifests in cycle racing.
CrutyRammers said:
Buggyjam said:
There is no formal training, testing, or expectation for other road users to have a working knowledge of various forms of hobby racing or actions its various participants might do within that sport. Rather drive defensively and be prepared, the same as any situation on the road.
Rather than divorcing from the rules citing “real world”, this is why triangulating back to the rules is crucial to avoid scenarios such as the one being discussed. Clearly in “the real world” misunderstanding regarding culpability and acceptable behaviour on the road manifests in cycle racing.
I don't think we're disagreeing really - a number of people seemed to be having a go at tannedballedhead but I think he's largely right. The riders are culpable, definately. But if you put people in a racing situation, some of them will always take extra risks to go faster. Organisers should understand and expect this.Rather than divorcing from the rules citing “real world”, this is why triangulating back to the rules is crucial to avoid scenarios such as the one being discussed. Clearly in “the real world” misunderstanding regarding culpability and acceptable behaviour on the road manifests in cycle racing.
I'm not stating the cyclists are right doing what they did I'm say racers will do what they do once in the red mist of competition. Race organizers need to take this into account when making risk assessments and compile method statements accordingly.
TooMany2cvs said:
[q It's down to those racing to apply the same road sense as they would if they were going to the shops or work.
Thing is..... They don't. I don't know whether you have raced (be it cars, karts, motorcycles, mountain or road bikes) or not. If you have you will realise that at wheel to wheel, shoulder to shoulder level common sense goes out the window. If you haven't you just don't get it.
CrutyRammers said:
I don't think we're disagreeing really - a number of people seemed to be having a go at tannedballedhead but I think he's largely right. The riders are culpable, definately. But if you put people in a racing situation, some of them will always take extra risks to go faster. Organisers should understand and expect this.
That’s it, I do agree on the point of mitigation with regard to the planning stage: that’s very important. As I mentioned before, an honest appraisal and risk assessment is meant to be carried out with the Police to determine if the road remain open to public use. Of course “after the horse has bolted” figuratively speaking and the event is in motion, the choices and behaviour of the riders rest firmly in the hands of the individuals involved.
Tannedbaldhead said:
Thing is..... They don't.
I don't know whether you have raced (be it cars, karts, motorcycles, mountain or road bikes) or not. If you have you will realise that at wheel to wheel, shoulder to shoulder level common sense goes out the window. If you haven't you just don't get it.
Yeah I think everyone is largely singing off a similar hymn sheet regarding organisational responsibilities. It’s mentioned in the regs: at the planning stage they’re provide correct details to the Police and risk assessments made. Crucially an honest portrayel is required.I don't know whether you have raced (be it cars, karts, motorcycles, mountain or road bikes) or not. If you have you will realise that at wheel to wheel, shoulder to shoulder level common sense goes out the window. If you haven't you just don't get it.
However satisfying that does not mute the next issue. Cyclists “doing what they do” on a public road whilst pursuing a facet of their hobby.
Within road cycle racing communities there seems a cultural tolerance for inappropriate behaviour on public roads. Whether psychologically attributable to pack mentality, or bias cultivated from identifying as “a racer” is unclear.
Regardless, the cycling racing community needs to address the issue. This shouldn’t be left hanging in the wind as an acceptable paradigm.
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