Discussion
Pommy said:
Whilst i understand your point i think you may have missed mine.
Previous hot golfs, Audi 3's etc have always been subtle so the current crop is an expected continuation of the 'look'. And i wouldnt disagree they are bland.
RS have generally always been a lot more 'visible'than their bread and butter counterparts.
Its not so much the RS is blander than its peers, its just blander than its own heritage.
The MK2 RS was very different to say an ST, I agree.Previous hot golfs, Audi 3's etc have always been subtle so the current crop is an expected continuation of the 'look'. And i wouldnt disagree they are bland.
RS have generally always been a lot more 'visible'than their bread and butter counterparts.
Its not so much the RS is blander than its peers, its just blander than its own heritage.
However, the MK1 RS was hardly worlds apart from an ST?
When I bought my MK2 RS new in 2010, I was laughed at for buying an "ST in a dress" and was told the MK1 was "THE ONE" to have. Now I have a MK3, everyone is saying the MK2 is "THE ONE" to have. When it come's to Fast Ford's, it appears they get very little appreciation until a newer model comes out
PS. I'm no fan boy either, I personally think the Golf R is a better all rounder than both the MK2 & MK3
For the majority of people their cars are essentially white goods. They crave fun or excitement in their cars the way you and I would a new tumble dryer.
This is good for petrol-heads. It means that lots of older 2nd hand interesting cars are virtually no money. Cars that you lusted after back in the day can now be had for a couple of months take home salary.
Most non-car people get more excited about the fact that their new car has a USB socket or Bluetooth integration than what the gear box is like to use or what the turn-in feels like.
I'm off to see how cheaply I could buy an interesting 300bhp+ car
This is good for petrol-heads. It means that lots of older 2nd hand interesting cars are virtually no money. Cars that you lusted after back in the day can now be had for a couple of months take home salary.
Most non-car people get more excited about the fact that their new car has a USB socket or Bluetooth integration than what the gear box is like to use or what the turn-in feels like.
I'm off to see how cheaply I could buy an interesting 300bhp+ car
E65Ross said:
My old man has a supercharged 5 litre V8 F Type R. That definitely isn't boring. Always puts a smile on my face every time I drive it or am even a passenger! Fun cars are certainly still out there! Isn't the gt86 meant to be good to drive? New mx5? New Lotus cars are meant to be good (exige for example).
I've also heard a lamborghini Huracan Performante is meant to be good too
There are the odd exceptions and of course most supercars aren't going to be bland...except the Audi R8 which is definitely boring.I've also heard a lamborghini Huracan Performante is meant to be good too
Tuvra said:
Pommy said:
Whilst i understand your point i think you may have missed mine.
Previous hot golfs, Audi 3's etc have always been subtle so the current crop is an expected continuation of the 'look'. And i wouldnt disagree they are bland.
RS have generally always been a lot more 'visible'than their bread and butter counterparts.
Its not so much the RS is blander than its peers, its just blander than its own heritage.
The MK2 RS was very different to say an ST, I agree.Previous hot golfs, Audi 3's etc have always been subtle so the current crop is an expected continuation of the 'look'. And i wouldnt disagree they are bland.
RS have generally always been a lot more 'visible'than their bread and butter counterparts.
Its not so much the RS is blander than its peers, its just blander than its own heritage.
However, the MK1 RS was hardly worlds apart from an ST?
When I bought my MK2 RS new in 2010, I was laughed at for buying an "ST in a dress" and was told the MK1 was "THE ONE" to have. Now I have a MK3, everyone is saying the MK2 is "THE ONE" to have. When it come's to Fast Ford's, it appears they get very little appreciation until a newer model comes out
PS. I'm no fan boy either, I personally think the Golf R is a better all rounder than both the MK2 & MK3
It doesnt have to be 'pick one' - i see a new RS and feel nothing. Thats quite sad.
OpulentBob said:
I'd probably have a heart attack if I ever bought a 320d.
my E91 318d estate I think has bags of character, (well) alot more that the current F'series, which looks like a bloated Nissan Primera, mine is the ES spec so nothing at all, very spartan, and i find that quite refreshing in a sea of cars with very busy dashboards, and can still wrench on it quite easily, plus handles great on its bottle top / un-fashionable 16" wheels when i push on.My 1966 beetle has bags of character!! Noisey, smells of fuel and doesn't want to start all the time
Edited by DailyHack on Wednesday 18th July 11:06
Edited by DailyHack on Wednesday 18th July 11:07
SaggyOstrich said:
E65Ross said:
My old man has a supercharged 5 litre V8 F Type R. That definitely isn't boring. Always puts a smile on my face every time I drive it or am even a passenger! Fun cars are certainly still out there! Isn't the gt86 meant to be good to drive? New mx5? New Lotus cars are meant to be good (exige for example).
I've also heard a lamborghini Huracan Performante is meant to be good too
There are the odd exceptions and of course most supercars aren't going to be bland...except the Audi R8 which is definitely boring.I've also heard a lamborghini Huracan Performante is meant to be good too
Most people associate character with either lots of noise and drama (things most people don't want....people want something quiet and refined), something which has odd quirks (again, most people want things to just work) etc. Car manufacturers are in the business to make money. That's what businesses strive to do. If they don't make products people want, they don't become profitable, and they don't succeed. One cannot blame the manufacturers for making stuff that people buy.
You go back a number of years.....Mk3 golf (even the GTI) was pretty bland in many respects, the most common 3 series (318i?) was bland, the Audi A3/4 were bland, a Ford Escort was bland. Yes, there were some great cars too, but there are today too
E65Ross said:
Yes, there are exceptions, but if you go back 20 years there were still an awful lot of bland cars back then too! Cars are, overall, far, far better than they were as being cars. Which is what 99.9% of the market want.
There have always been bland cars but 20 years ago it was easier to get a cheap, non-boring car. All the interesting cars from yesteryear have shot up in price and there haven't really been replacements up until recently. There was a huge lull in interesting cars during the 00's.E65Ross said:
FakeConcern said:
E65Ross said:
FakeConcern said:
E65Ross said:
Erm....don't buy an SUV? There are good looking cars still out there; although a better knowledge of aerodynamics coupled with safety regs does tighten the leash on designs a little.
What sort of car niche/type do you feel you would like where there isn't a good looking example?
Well ok I have an ageing warm hatch that looks interesting both inside and out. I can't think of an equivalent new car that looks as interesting to me (I do appreciate that beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc.). In fact I would like a few suggestions as really I could do with a new car.What sort of car niche/type do you feel you would like where there isn't a good looking example?
Sticking with French, I quite like the Peugeot 208 GTI
small, good fun, pretty funky looks (I like that orange colour they do).Cars I've considered as replacements are (in no particular order)
DS3 Racing
Volvo C30 T5
VW Scirocco
I use to think old cars were better but I've gone the other way. Pay your PCP or HP every month and have something that works properly.
In truth even a modern Vauxhall Astra will be a far better ownership proposition (for every day) than some of the apparent 'classics' and retro cars. It'll handle better, be easier on the wallet and be more refined for every day use.
In truth even a modern Vauxhall Astra will be a far better ownership proposition (for every day) than some of the apparent 'classics' and retro cars. It'll handle better, be easier on the wallet and be more refined for every day use.
Plenty of older cars can be used daily and are probably a damn sight more interesting than the equivalent modern. Particularly with a few modifications or some restoration. To name a few off the top of my head:
- BMW E36/E46 (arguably more fun than a new 3)
- Volvo V70
- Saab 9-5
- Mercedes W124 (more comfortable and better made than a new E)
- Porsche 993/996/968 (more fun than a new 991)
- Lexus LS400/430
- Clio 182 (more fun than a new Clio)
- Integra DC2 (better than a new Civic?)
I have used a few of these as dailies in the past few years with no issues whatsoever.
- BMW E36/E46 (arguably more fun than a new 3)
- Volvo V70
- Saab 9-5
- Mercedes W124 (more comfortable and better made than a new E)
- Porsche 993/996/968 (more fun than a new 991)
- Lexus LS400/430
- Clio 182 (more fun than a new Clio)
- Integra DC2 (better than a new Civic?)
I have used a few of these as dailies in the past few years with no issues whatsoever.
Ls400.... Character? Are you having a laugh!?
W124..... I'm sorry, I love those old barges but a while ago I was considering getting something nice but cheaper to run than my E65 7 series. It was comfy but it wallowed about like a yacht, the brakes were pretty awful, the economy was not much better than my V8 (it was a 300E) and it was surprisingly noisy inside in terms of wind noise. Same applies for the E36 and to a lesser extent the E46. The W124, E36/E46, from a daily driver perspective, are NOT as good as the current crop of cars. I'd be willing to bet my house on this: if those cars went on sale today brand new and cost the same as the new cars, and the new models were also available, that every single one of the old cars would be remaining in the dealers..... Except maybe to 0.0000001% of the population who find them more interesting or to prove a point.
W124..... I'm sorry, I love those old barges but a while ago I was considering getting something nice but cheaper to run than my E65 7 series. It was comfy but it wallowed about like a yacht, the brakes were pretty awful, the economy was not much better than my V8 (it was a 300E) and it was surprisingly noisy inside in terms of wind noise. Same applies for the E36 and to a lesser extent the E46. The W124, E36/E46, from a daily driver perspective, are NOT as good as the current crop of cars. I'd be willing to bet my house on this: if those cars went on sale today brand new and cost the same as the new cars, and the new models were also available, that every single one of the old cars would be remaining in the dealers..... Except maybe to 0.0000001% of the population who find them more interesting or to prove a point.
SidewaysSi said:
- Mercedes W124 (more comfortable and better made than a new E)
But you are trying to be subjective about something objective. Consumers who are actually buying new Mercedes etc will keep them for 3 to 4 years on PCP before they are either auctioned or sold as approved used. As long as they are reliable for this duration then they would be considered 'well made' by the industry and real buyers i.e quality is fitness for intended purpose and no one is going to give a rats arse about the reliability of an 18 plate E Class beyond year 2025.Edited by BeirutTaxi on Wednesday 18th July 20:41
Maybe a W124 is more comfortable.... Better though?
Better in the sense that it rolls around like a boat (not exactly confidence inspiring), doesn't brake as well, slower (model for model), less fuel efficient, less inside tech and creature comforts much more road and wind noise.... List goes on. Ultimately for what just about every new E class owners wants, the new car is better.
Better in the sense that it rolls around like a boat (not exactly confidence inspiring), doesn't brake as well, slower (model for model), less fuel efficient, less inside tech and creature comforts much more road and wind noise.... List goes on. Ultimately for what just about every new E class owners wants, the new car is better.
E65Ross said:
Ls400.... Character? Are you having a laugh!?
W124..... I'm sorry, I love those old barges but a while ago I was considering getting something nice but cheaper to run than my E65 7 series. It was comfy but it wallowed about like a yacht, the brakes were pretty awful, the economy was not much better than my V8 (it was a 300E) and it was surprisingly noisy inside in terms of wind noise. Same applies for the E36 and to a lesser extent the E46. The W124, E36/E46, from a daily driver perspective, are NOT as good as the current crop of cars. I'd be willing to bet my house on this: if those cars went on sale today brand new and cost the same as the new cars, and the new models were also available, that every single one of the old cars would be remaining in the dealers..... Except maybe to 0.0000001% of the population who find them more interesting or to prove a point.
All of this goes without saying, no? But not the point of the thread.W124..... I'm sorry, I love those old barges but a while ago I was considering getting something nice but cheaper to run than my E65 7 series. It was comfy but it wallowed about like a yacht, the brakes were pretty awful, the economy was not much better than my V8 (it was a 300E) and it was surprisingly noisy inside in terms of wind noise. Same applies for the E36 and to a lesser extent the E46. The W124, E36/E46, from a daily driver perspective, are NOT as good as the current crop of cars. I'd be willing to bet my house on this: if those cars went on sale today brand new and cost the same as the new cars, and the new models were also available, that every single one of the old cars would be remaining in the dealers..... Except maybe to 0.0000001% of the population who find them more interesting or to prove a point.
After all, most PHers, like the general population would take a 991S over a 2.8 RSR after all.
"PH - Refinement matters".
SidewaysSi said:
After all, most PHers, like the general population would take a 991S over a 2.8 RSR after all.
Maybe most PHers, but the general population - doubt it. Secondly, why are you comparing an RSR to an S? should be a GT2 RS or something, no? That'd be like me arguing I'd rather a current Audi RS4 over a 20 year old 2.0 petrol A4 (which I would, but doesn't really give a fair comparison)Normally I get the train to work but today I drove in and with this thread in mind I decided to count how many 'interesting' cars I saw. The drive is about 50 odd miles with 30 of that being on a motorway so I passed (and got passed by) lots of cars.
Out of the sea of grey, black or white mainly German cars, there were only 4 cars that were somewhat interesting. One of which was a Porsche 911 GT3 to be fair which I certainly didn't expect.
Pointless exercise I know and not all that surprising seeing as most people commuting probably drive something boring/economical for a reason but still pretty low numbers.
Out of the sea of grey, black or white mainly German cars, there were only 4 cars that were somewhat interesting. One of which was a Porsche 911 GT3 to be fair which I certainly didn't expect.
Pointless exercise I know and not all that surprising seeing as most people commuting probably drive something boring/economical for a reason but still pretty low numbers.
Everyone so far says cars currently on sale today are bland and in bland resale colours, agreed older cars have more character .
Id make the most of it as they are about to get blander with the introduction of electric cars with a disconnected driving experience, twice as worse self driving cars I cant get any enthusiasm at all for these literally dull boxes , petrolheads on borrowed time .
Id make the most of it as they are about to get blander with the introduction of electric cars with a disconnected driving experience, twice as worse self driving cars I cant get any enthusiasm at all for these literally dull boxes , petrolheads on borrowed time .
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