That's it, I am no longer defending Cyclists!
Discussion
cb1965 said:
Yes I did, but that's because I am so intelligent, for the less intelligent i.e. the cycling mafia on here, I just wanted to clarify the situation lest they turn on you and flagellate you with their lycra in the name of the Latterday Church of the Militant Cyclists!
Isn't it time you were in bed? The thing is, you might actually be a decent chap, but just get carried away behind a keyboard. However all your comments and wording i.e. 'mafia' 'louts' 'MAMILS' just shows you're a bit dim. Smart stupid maybe, I don't know, one for the therapists?yonex said:
Isn't it time you were in bed? The thing is, you might actually be a decent chap, but just get carried away behind a keyboard. However all your comments and wording i.e. 'mafia' 'louts' 'MAMILS' just shows you're a bit dim. Smart stupid maybe, I don't know, one for the therapists?
And another one bites the dust 
You cycling mafia types are very tetchy aren’t you, maybe some of these criticisms you seem to attract are a little too close to home eh? Anyway bedtime it is, goodnight cb1965 said:
And another one bites the dust You cycling mafia types are very tetchy aren’t you, maybe some of these criticisms you seem to attract are a little too close to home eh?
I don't know anyone who is so wound up about cyclists ; I didn't know it was possible. Most people get irritated occasionally about inconsiderate cyclists but typing even a fraction of the hostile stuff you type when confronted with clear rationale and thought processes from a vast majority of people would be the sign of a very troubled personality and a very unhappy human being, which is no laughing matter. I genuinely hope things improve for you. You cycling mafia types are very tetchy aren’t you, maybe some of these criticisms you seem to attract are a little too close to home eh? nickfrog said:
cb1965 said:
And another one bites the dust You cycling mafia types are very tetchy aren’t you, maybe some of these criticisms you seem to attract are a little too close to home eh?
I don't know anyone who is so wound up about cyclists ; I didn't know it was possible. Most people get irritated occasionally about inconsiderate cyclists but typing even a fraction of the hostile stuff you type when confronted with clear rationale and thought processes from a vast majority of people would be the sign of a very troubled personality and a very unhappy human being, which is no laughing matter. I genuinely hope things improve for you. You cycling mafia types are very tetchy aren’t you, maybe some of these criticisms you seem to attract are a little too close to home eh? No, two things...a sanctimonious, amateur psychologist.....
WestyCarl said:
These threads are funny and are great for identifying "angry" people.
The fact is some cyclists can be idiots (jumping red lights, riding in massive groups), but then so can car drivers (texting whilst driving, speeding, dash cam warriors) and also pedestrians (walking out not looking)
At some point, we have all been an idiot on the road and affected someone else. Just relax............
This pretty muxh sums up my views on it, too. The fact is some cyclists can be idiots (jumping red lights, riding in massive groups), but then so can car drivers (texting whilst driving, speeding, dash cam warriors) and also pedestrians (walking out not looking)
At some point, we have all been an idiot on the road and affected someone else. Just relax............
BobSaunders said:
Welcome to come and borrow my bicycle and see how bad said cycle lanes are from a cyclist perspective, and then realise why the road is used. Usually street cleaning pushes glass, debris etc. onto the cycle path which in turn is never cleaned.
The road is additionally free for all to use. Cycle lanes are optional. Until that changes, legally, then there is no discussion or argument.
I've seen better care given to a pigeon in the road than a cyclist on a bike.
So what is the point of wasting limited resources building cycle lanes when cyclists don't use them? The road is additionally free for all to use. Cycle lanes are optional. Until that changes, legally, then there is no discussion or argument.
I've seen better care given to a pigeon in the road than a cyclist on a bike.
Save the money and build another lane of road that everyone can use, but clean and maintain it properly for everyone seems like a better idea!
nickfrog said:
I don't know anyone who is so wound up about cyclists ; I didn't know it was possible. Most people get irritated occasionally about inconsiderate cyclists but typing even a fraction of the hostile stuff you type when confronted with clear rationale and thought processes from a vast majority of people would be the sign of a very troubled personality and a very unhappy human being, which is no laughing matter. I genuinely hope things improve for you.
You’re really not very good at this are you? 
cb1965 said:
nickfrog said:
I don't know anyone who is so wound up about cyclists ; I didn't know it was possible. Most people get irritated occasionally about inconsiderate cyclists but typing even a fraction of the hostile stuff you type when confronted with clear rationale and thought processes from a vast majority of people would be the sign of a very troubled personality and a very unhappy human being, which is no laughing matter. I genuinely hope things improve for you.
You’re really not very good at this are you? No mirrors n the Frog house, it would seem.
Kuji said:
Have you not seen some of the poor road manners cyclists seem to excel at.
Oh wait, I forgot, you like to ignore all that inconvenient s
te. 
Oh wait, I forgot, you like to ignore all that inconvenient s
te. No of course I've seen the idiots on bicycles, the roads are awash with idiots including people far more vulnerable than cyclists. Why would there be any expectation for cyclists to behave differently?
But this doesn't even begin to explain the opprobrium seen all the time on these threads. Relative to all that happens on the roads, what cyclists get up to is very little. It's us motorists who are responsible for most of the thousands hurt and killed on the roads, it's us that cost each of us 24 hours + of lost time on the roads.
As others have said, it takes far longer to complain about on these threads than the actual time lost on the roads.
Mr Tidy said:
So what is the point of wasting limited resources building cycle lanes when cyclists don't use them?
Save the money and build another lane of road that everyone can use, but clean and maintain it properly for everyone seems like a better idea!
No, the obvious answer is to build cycle lanes that people will use, get millions more cycling and get cars off the road. Save the money and build another lane of road that everyone can use, but clean and maintain it properly for everyone seems like a better idea!
It's extremely easy to build good cycle lanes, just copy the countless miles of them that are on the continent. I would suggest that our s
t ones are unique. On my daily commute I pass many miles of little used pavement, but I'm not going to suggest they should be ripped up and be replaced by road.
I notice that on these threads we never see the haters complaining about the substantial road space lost to, and delays caused by, cars parked on the road or kept overnight on the road.
heebeegeetee said:
Mr Tidy said:
So what is the point of wasting limited resources building cycle lanes when cyclists don't use them?
Save the money and build another lane of road that everyone can use, but clean and maintain it properly for everyone seems like a better idea!
No, the obvious answer is to build cycle lanes that people will use, get millions more cycling and get cars off the road. Save the money and build another lane of road that everyone can use, but clean and maintain it properly for everyone seems like a better idea!
It's extremely easy to build good cycle lanes, just copy the countless miles of them that are on the continent. I would suggest that our s
t ones are unique. On my daily commute I pass many miles of little used pavement, but I'm not going to suggest they should be ripped up and be replaced by road.
I notice that on these threads we never see the haters complaining about the substantial road space lost to, and delays caused by, cars parked on the road or kept overnight on the road.
For most roads mixed use works for all types of road users, trouble is like many things a few end up spoiling it for everyone else.
That's not to say there isnt room for a decent walking and cycling infratsructure in some places
saaby93 said:
ou cant have a cycle lane next every road in the country - it wouldn't be the country
For most roads mixed use works for all types of road users, trouble is like many things a few end up spoiling it for everyone else.
That's not to say there isnt room for a decent walking and cycling infratsructure in some places
Well, what you say can't happen does happen, a lot, and not far away either. For most roads mixed use works for all types of road users, trouble is like many things a few end up spoiling it for everyone else.
That's not to say there isnt room for a decent walking and cycling infratsructure in some places
Imo people who may not want to use or own a car are massively short changed in this country, and it's not right or fair.
As a result of our policy, England is the most congested country in Europe, and we have significant issues with air quality and obesity and so on. It's an extraordinarily expensive policy to follow.
heebeegeetee said:
saaby93 said:
You cant have a cycle lane next every road in the country - it wouldn't be the country
For most roads mixed use works for all types of road users, trouble is like many things a few end up spoiling it for everyone else.
That's not to say there isnt room for a decent walking and cycling infratsructure in some places
Well, what you say can't happen does happen, a lot, and not far away either. For most roads mixed use works for all types of road users, trouble is like many things a few end up spoiling it for everyone else.
That's not to say there isnt room for a decent walking and cycling infratsructure in some places
Imo people who may not want to use or own a car are massively short changed in this country, and it's not right or fair.
As a result of our policy, England is the most congested country in Europe, and we have significant issues with air quality and obesity and so on. It's an extraordinarily expensive policy to follow.
heebeegeetee said:
Imo people who may not want to use or own a car are massively short changed in this country, and it's not right or fair.
DiddumsAs for the rest of your post you’re making hugely conjectuaral leaps with absolutely zero science behind them
Whike cycling/walking no doubt would help with obesity for instance the far larger cause of the issue is diet and the relative high cost of healthy food compared to processed rubbish not to mention education over diet and life/work balance etc. It’s a very complex subject that will not be resolved by some dullard on a forum stamping his foot over cycling opportunities so best leave it to the adults eh?
heebeegeetee said:
Well, what you say can't happen does happen, a lot, and not far away either.
Imo people who may not want to use or own a car are massively short changed in this country, and it's not right or fair.
As a result of our policy, England is the most congested country in Europe, and we have significant issues with air quality and obesity and so on. It's an extraordinarily expensive policy to follow.
What on Earth are you in about now?Imo people who may not want to use or own a car are massively short changed in this country, and it's not right or fair.
As a result of our policy, England is the most congested country in Europe, and we have significant issues with air quality and obesity and so on. It's an extraordinarily expensive policy to follow.
Most of the population of the U.K. reside in towns and cities. Massively short change by this country? It’s not right or fair? Stop deluding yourself with your religious piety and pomposity. You’re the main problem on any cycling thread due to your complete inability to rationalisenor debate like the typical religious loon.
Just how has this country short changed people? By wasting millions on cycle lanes that don’t get used and will never get used. The LA ‘build it they will come’ in a time of austerity has been utterly offensive.
People don’t cycle because they don’t want and they can afford not to. Commerce has adapted rapidly to the cheapness of the private motor car as has society. The cheap car has allowed businesses to set up in the middle of nowhere and for people to live in the middle of nowhere.
Only through changing the price of motoring can you force business and people to revert to the parochial society of the factory town.
And nor are we going to change the topography of the U.K. It is no coincidence that almost all cycle traffic in London is East/West and around a narrow Thames corridor.
Getting millions onto pushbikes? Good luck with that. You’re going to need Pol Pot’s Handbook but then religious lions are no strangers to oppression.
Changing the fabric of a society by building little lanes instead of steering society via a massive and punitive tax and spend program? Good luck with the continued pissing of valuable money down the drain to just favour a few wealthy people who have absolutely no needs.
It’s healthier, people will live longer! Why is that a good thing!! If anyone on this planet has learned anything in the last two decades it is that people living longer is not a good thing and the NHS has been brought to its knees by it.
Cycling is the only solution to traffic congestion! Just how!!!! Taking away tarmac for bicycles has helped increase congestion. Having more blended and less uniform vehicles on roads has helped increase congestion.
But ultimately, all this cycling crap is just another example of pointless, high cost, short term, negative, sticky plaster politics. The solution to congestion and the pollution that it causes is the exact same as the solution to almost all similar social issues and that is less consumption not more.
The only viable solution to road congestion is to tax a significant number of people out of private car ownership. Done at such a rate and pace that the fabric of local society adjust smoothly and creatively to fit. Just building silly little cycle lanes that no one has asked for, no one is using and no one will ever need and wasting all that money along with the endless upkeep is total insanity and those perpetrating this abject waste should be stripped of their assets to help refund and given a sound slap.
Cycling is not the solution to our congestion or pollution woes. It is a hobby for the affluent. Absolutely no money should be spent on specialist infrastructure and instead that money should be spent on removing road users who cannot emotionally cope with the task and responsibility of being on the road.
The cretin who buzzes a cyclist is as much a danger to any other type of road user and instead of the wretched ‘football fan’ mentality of the car v bike simpletons, all road users should be working to get these low functioners and mentally unstable chimps away from our roads.
But then the envangeslist loon who wants the world to cycle and who ignores basic reality and common sense is the other side of the coin and just as much part of the problem.
Cycling is a hobby, mostly for the affluent elite as can be seen by how much money they invest, it is not a viable transport solution. It is not the future of transport. The law should absolutely protect all road users and all road users should have more regard and respect for their more vulnerable fellows and as a society we simply should not tolerate those who fail or are unable to.
But you must try to come to terms with the fact that cycling is not the future. It is not the great saviour. It is not the messiah for all to follow and that those who don’t understand your religion are inferior. Cycling is just a hobby for the rich. That’s all it is. It’s like golf, tennis, rowing and many other enjoyable pastimes. It’s just a hobby for the few. It’s not a religion, it’s not a way of life. It is not the future of transport. It’s just a bit of fun for those who can afford it and wish to do so.
And maybe, just maybe, if you manage to get your head around that you might just start to see why the extremists on the other face of the coin are being triggered.
cb1965 said:
nickfrog said:
I don't know anyone who is so wound up about cyclists ; I didn't know it was possible. Most people get irritated occasionally about inconsiderate cyclists but typing even a fraction of the hostile stuff you type when confronted with clear rationale and thought processes from a vast majority of people would be the sign of a very troubled personality and a very unhappy human being, which is no laughing matter. I genuinely hope things improve for you.
You’re really not very good at this are you? You're right. As always.
DonkeyApple said:
heebeegeetee said:
Well, what you say can't happen does happen, a lot, and not far away either.
Imo people who may not want to use or own a car are massively short changed in this country, and it's not right or fair.
As a result of our policy, England is the most congested country in Europe, and we have significant issues with air quality and obesity and so on. It's an extraordinarily expensive policy to follow.
What on Earth are you in about now?Imo people who may not want to use or own a car are massively short changed in this country, and it's not right or fair.
As a result of our policy, England is the most congested country in Europe, and we have significant issues with air quality and obesity and so on. It's an extraordinarily expensive policy to follow.
Most of the population of the U.K. reside in towns and cities. Massively short change by this country? It’s not right or fair? Stop deluding yourself with your religious piety and pomposity. You’re the main problem on any cycling thread due to your complete inability to rationalisenor debate like the typical religious loon.
Just how has this country short changed people? By wasting millions on cycle lanes that don’t get used and will never get used. The LA ‘build it they will come’ in a time of austerity has been utterly offensive.
People don’t cycle because they don’t want and they can afford not to. Commerce has adapted rapidly to the cheapness of the private motor car as has society. The cheap car has allowed businesses to set up in the middle of nowhere and for people to live in the middle of nowhere.
Only through changing the price of motoring can you force business and people to revert to the parochial society of the factory town.
And nor are we going to change the topography of the U.K. It is no coincidence that almost all cycle traffic in London is East/West and around a narrow Thames corridor.
Getting millions onto pushbikes? Good luck with that. You’re going to need Pol Pot’s Handbook but then religious lions are no strangers to oppression.
Changing the fabric of a society by building little lanes instead of steering society via a massive and punitive tax and spend program? Good luck with the continued pissing of valuable money down the drain to just favour a few wealthy people who have absolutely no needs.
It’s healthier, people will live longer! Why is that a good thing!! If anyone on this planet has learned anything in the last two decades it is that people living longer is not a good thing and the NHS has been brought to its knees by it.
Cycling is the only solution to traffic congestion! Just how!!!! Taking away tarmac for bicycles has helped increase congestion. Having more blended and less uniform vehicles on roads has helped increase congestion.
But ultimately, all this cycling crap is just another example of pointless, high cost, short term, negative, sticky plaster politics. The solution to congestion and the pollution that it causes is the exact same as the solution to almost all similar social issues and that is less consumption not more.
The only viable solution to road congestion is to tax a significant number of people out of private car ownership. Done at such a rate and pace that the fabric of local society adjust smoothly and creatively to fit. Just building silly little cycle lanes that no one has asked for, no one is using and no one will ever need and wasting all that money along with the endless upkeep is total insanity and those perpetrating this abject waste should be stripped of their assets to help refund and given a sound slap.
Cycling is not the solution to our congestion or pollution woes. It is a hobby for the affluent. Absolutely no money should be spent on specialist infrastructure and instead that money should be spent on removing road users who cannot emotionally cope with the task and responsibility of being on the road.
The cretin who buzzes a cyclist is as much a danger to any other type of road user and instead of the wretched ‘football fan’ mentality of the car v bike simpletons, all road users should be working to get these low functioners and mentally unstable chimps away from our roads.
But then the envangeslist loon who wants the world to cycle and who ignores basic reality and common sense is the other side of the coin and just as much part of the problem.
Cycling is a hobby, mostly for the affluent elite as can be seen by how much money they invest, it is not a viable transport solution. It is not the future of transport. The law should absolutely protect all road users and all road users should have more regard and respect for their more vulnerable fellows and as a society we simply should not tolerate those who fail or are unable to.
But you must try to come to terms with the fact that cycling is not the future. It is not the great saviour. It is not the messiah for all to follow and that those who don’t understand your religion are inferior. Cycling is just a hobby for the rich. That’s all it is. It’s like golf, tennis, rowing and many other enjoyable pastimes. It’s just a hobby for the few. It’s not a religion, it’s not a way of life. It is not the future of transport. It’s just a bit of fun for those who can afford it and wish to do so.
And maybe, just maybe, if you manage to get your head around that you might just start to see why the extremists on the other face of the coin are being triggered.
Cycling is not just a hobby for the rich. It's like anything, you can spend a lot of money if you choose to.
I'm not rich and I ride regularly.
DonkeyApple said:
What on Earth are you in about now?
Most of the population of the U.K. reside in towns and cities. Massively short change by this country? It’s not right or fair? Stop deluding yourself with your religious piety and pomposity. You’re the main problem on any cycling thread due to your complete inability to rationalisenor debate like the typical religious loon.
Just how has this country short changed people? By wasting millions on cycle lanes that don’t get used and will never get used. The LA ‘build it they will come’ in a time of austerity has been utterly offensive.
People don’t cycle because they don’t want and they can afford not to. Commerce has adapted rapidly to the cheapness of the private motor car as has society. The cheap car has allowed businesses to set up in the middle of nowhere and for people to live in the middle of nowhere.
Only through changing the price of motoring can you force business and people to revert to the parochial society of the factory town.
And nor are we going to change the topography of the U.K. It is no coincidence that almost all cycle traffic in London is East/West and around a narrow Thames corridor.
Getting millions onto pushbikes? Good luck with that. You’re going to need Pol Pot’s Handbook but then religious lions are no strangers to oppression.
Changing the fabric of a society by building little lanes instead of steering society via a massive and punitive tax and spend program? Good luck with the continued pissing of valuable money down the drain to just favour a few wealthy people who have absolutely no needs.
It’s healthier, people will live longer! Why is that a good thing!! If anyone on this planet has learned anything in the last two decades it is that people living longer is not a good thing and the NHS has been brought to its knees by it.
Cycling is the only solution to traffic congestion! Just how!!!! Taking away tarmac for bicycles has helped increase congestion. Having more blended and less uniform vehicles on roads has helped increase congestion.
But ultimately, all this cycling crap is just another example of pointless, high cost, short term, negative, sticky plaster politics. The solution to congestion and the pollution that it causes is the exact same as the solution to almost all similar social issues and that is less consumption not more.
The only viable solution to road congestion is to tax a significant number of people out of private car ownership. Done at such a rate and pace that the fabric of local society adjust smoothly and creatively to fit. Just building silly little cycle lanes that no one has asked for, no one is using and no one will ever need and wasting all that money along with the endless upkeep is total insanity and those perpetrating this abject waste should be stripped of their assets to help refund and given a sound slap.
Cycling is not the solution to our congestion or pollution woes. It is a hobby for the affluent. Absolutely no money should be spent on specialist infrastructure and instead that money should be spent on removing road users who cannot emotionally cope with the task and responsibility of being on the road.
The cretin who buzzes a cyclist is as much a danger to any other type of road user and instead of the wretched ‘football fan’ mentality of the car v bike simpletons, all road users should be working to get these low functioners and mentally unstable chimps away from our roads.
But then the envangeslist loon who wants the world to cycle and who ignores basic reality and common sense is the other side of the coin and just as much part of the problem.
Cycling is a hobby, mostly for the affluent elite as can be seen by how much money they invest, it is not a viable transport solution. It is not the future of transport. The law should absolutely protect all road users and all road users should have more regard and respect for their more vulnerable fellows and as a society we simply should not tolerate those who fail or are unable to.
But you must try to come to terms with the fact that cycling is not the future. It is not the great saviour. It is not the messiah for all to follow and that those who don’t understand your religion are inferior. Cycling is just a hobby for the rich. That’s all it is. It’s like golf, tennis, rowing and many other enjoyable pastimes. It’s just a hobby for the few. It’s not a religion, it’s not a way of life. It is not the future of transport. It’s just a bit of fun for those who can afford it and wish to do so.
And maybe, just maybe, if you manage to get your head around that you might just start to see why the extremists on the other face of the coin are being triggered.
Most of the population of the U.K. reside in towns and cities. Massively short change by this country? It’s not right or fair? Stop deluding yourself with your religious piety and pomposity. You’re the main problem on any cycling thread due to your complete inability to rationalisenor debate like the typical religious loon.
Just how has this country short changed people? By wasting millions on cycle lanes that don’t get used and will never get used. The LA ‘build it they will come’ in a time of austerity has been utterly offensive.
People don’t cycle because they don’t want and they can afford not to. Commerce has adapted rapidly to the cheapness of the private motor car as has society. The cheap car has allowed businesses to set up in the middle of nowhere and for people to live in the middle of nowhere.
Only through changing the price of motoring can you force business and people to revert to the parochial society of the factory town.
And nor are we going to change the topography of the U.K. It is no coincidence that almost all cycle traffic in London is East/West and around a narrow Thames corridor.
Getting millions onto pushbikes? Good luck with that. You’re going to need Pol Pot’s Handbook but then religious lions are no strangers to oppression.
Changing the fabric of a society by building little lanes instead of steering society via a massive and punitive tax and spend program? Good luck with the continued pissing of valuable money down the drain to just favour a few wealthy people who have absolutely no needs.
It’s healthier, people will live longer! Why is that a good thing!! If anyone on this planet has learned anything in the last two decades it is that people living longer is not a good thing and the NHS has been brought to its knees by it.
Cycling is the only solution to traffic congestion! Just how!!!! Taking away tarmac for bicycles has helped increase congestion. Having more blended and less uniform vehicles on roads has helped increase congestion.
But ultimately, all this cycling crap is just another example of pointless, high cost, short term, negative, sticky plaster politics. The solution to congestion and the pollution that it causes is the exact same as the solution to almost all similar social issues and that is less consumption not more.
The only viable solution to road congestion is to tax a significant number of people out of private car ownership. Done at such a rate and pace that the fabric of local society adjust smoothly and creatively to fit. Just building silly little cycle lanes that no one has asked for, no one is using and no one will ever need and wasting all that money along with the endless upkeep is total insanity and those perpetrating this abject waste should be stripped of their assets to help refund and given a sound slap.
Cycling is not the solution to our congestion or pollution woes. It is a hobby for the affluent. Absolutely no money should be spent on specialist infrastructure and instead that money should be spent on removing road users who cannot emotionally cope with the task and responsibility of being on the road.
The cretin who buzzes a cyclist is as much a danger to any other type of road user and instead of the wretched ‘football fan’ mentality of the car v bike simpletons, all road users should be working to get these low functioners and mentally unstable chimps away from our roads.
But then the envangeslist loon who wants the world to cycle and who ignores basic reality and common sense is the other side of the coin and just as much part of the problem.
Cycling is a hobby, mostly for the affluent elite as can be seen by how much money they invest, it is not a viable transport solution. It is not the future of transport. The law should absolutely protect all road users and all road users should have more regard and respect for their more vulnerable fellows and as a society we simply should not tolerate those who fail or are unable to.
But you must try to come to terms with the fact that cycling is not the future. It is not the great saviour. It is not the messiah for all to follow and that those who don’t understand your religion are inferior. Cycling is just a hobby for the rich. That’s all it is. It’s like golf, tennis, rowing and many other enjoyable pastimes. It’s just a hobby for the few. It’s not a religion, it’s not a way of life. It is not the future of transport. It’s just a bit of fun for those who can afford it and wish to do so.
And maybe, just maybe, if you manage to get your head around that you might just start to see why the extremists on the other face of the coin are being triggered.
To much to respond to, but as I said early in the thread, I just wish people would get out more, because the fact is, the continent of Europe has proved you wrong on just about every point you've made.
And before you respond: no, the continent of Europe is not flat. Even Switzerland can offer significant alternatives to the car, including far greater cycling infrastructure than we can manage.
heebeegeetee said:
To much to respond to, but as I said early in the thread, I just wish people would get out more, because the fact is, the continent of Europe has proved you wrong on just about every point you've made.
And before you respond: no, the continent of Europe is not flat. Even Switzerland can offer significant alternatives to the car, including far greater cycling infrastructure than we can manage.
Netherlands seems to have come to a crossroad though, 2017 was the first year that more cyclists died on the roads than car occupants. Be interesting to see what that will bring. And before you respond: no, the continent of Europe is not flat. Even Switzerland can offer significant alternatives to the car, including far greater cycling infrastructure than we can manage.
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