Are cars actually getting better as the years go on?

Are cars actually getting better as the years go on?

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Discussion

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
An age old discussion, but the constant slanging of models like the Qashqai got me thinking.

I drove a 2015 Qashqai for a day and it was very nice to drive, comfortable (leather seats) and it was loaded with tech.

Then I had a few days in a CR-V AWD which was another very good car, lovely seats and a decent steering feel.

Now I’ve got a 2018 Murano for a week and it’s a great car. I was supposed to get a Hellcat from Turo but at $375/day and 1000km cap the Murano at $50/day from Enterprise with nav upgrade, damage waiver, unlimited miles and being able to drop it off wherever was a much better proposition. A Quattroporte is waiting when I return the Murano wink. The Murano which I was previously slagging off left me seriously thinking about p/x my IS300h for a good spec Qashqai (because there is no UK Murano) next. It does the job and it left me seriously impressed.


The Murano got me thinking - PH’ers claim that “x modern car” is the worst thing since deep fried butter but really? I would much rather be in a 3008 than a Talbot Samba. I’ve also driven a 3008 and it was fine to drive and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. The interior felt solid and premium and it had all the bells and whistles as standard.

The worst car I’ve ever driven was a LDV Convoy - it was shockingly st. By comparison a new Transit or Sprinter is leagues ahead.

Can we just come to a conclusion that modern cars are not all about no driving aids and 0-60 times - today’s cars are the cream of the crop. Next decade’s cars will be too, and so on.



HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
In my view manufacturers were pretty good at making cars by about 20 years ago.

Since then it’s been all about incremental improvements in safety and efficiency, plus building in a load of gimmicky technology (because that’s what the consumer at large appears to be impressed by)

Cars haven’t got any more expensive so manufacturers are having to make everything for less and less money

My feeling is that cars have got bigger, heavier and more bloated, with more features than ever... the consumer is getting ‘more car for their money’, but I miss the time she a car was a car, not a 66mpg smartphone docking station with WiFi hotspot, Bluetooth, radar parking assistance and 20” rims.

Certainly if you spoke to people who worked on cars you might find that the 90s car is in many ways better at the basic task of being a car. Easier to work on, sensibly screwed together, better access for repairs and maintenance etc.

daniel1920

310 posts

117 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
Well it depends how you define better.

Take a mk3 golf diesel and a mk7.
Compare the mpg.
Compare the nvh.
Compare the acceleration.
Compare the ride.
Compare the technology.
And finish it off by doing 40mph into a wall.
There is almost no situations they are objectively worse.

Of course this is all better for the buying public, but we are all PHs so why I have a ‘94 mx5.

Writing that made me also think, compare the rust at 10years old tongue out

jamei303

2,996 posts

155 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
I remember our old rotary landline phone. Solid and well put together, excellent call quality, easy to disassemble for fun and put back together again.

C.A.R.

3,967 posts

187 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
Some modern cars are still genuinely horrendous. You mention Peugeot - have you ever driven a 2008? Awful thing. Recently I've had a few hire cars following a non-fault accident. One of these was a Renault Captur. I didn't know it was possible to make a far this bad in 2018. Drove it 5 miles before returning it for something else!

On the flipside I had to return my Hyundai i30 and was sad to see it go. It was great- certainly as good if not slightly better than the brand new Ford Focus I currently have...

So yes, it is still possible to build a crap car in 2018, just ask the French laugh

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
daniel1920 said:
Well it depends how you define better.

Take a mk3 golf diesel and a mk7.
Compare the mpg.
Compare the nvh.
Compare the acceleration.
Compare the ride.
Compare the technology.
And finish it off by doing 40mph into a wall.
There is almost no situations they are objectively worse.

Of course this is all better for the buying public, but we are all PHs so why I have a ‘94 mx5.

Writing that made me also think, compare the rust at 10years old tongue out
Compare an E36 BMW (this week's favourite PH car) against a new F30.

Compare the agility
Compare the mechanical toughness
Compare the steering feel
Compare the handling
Compare the ease of oversteer
Compare the ride
Compare the weight
Compare the simplicity and ease of fixing when things go wrong
Compare the green credentials (if such things matter to you).

There are almost no situations where the new car is better.

Though it is no doubt more flashy to most people and would survive better at 40mph when you crash as you were fiddling with your I Drive and bored senseless by the artificial steering feel.

That's why I don't drive a new car. Though new BMWs are better than most. A lot of new cars are horrendous to drive.


Edited by SidewaysSi on Saturday 21st July 07:44

anonymous-user

Original Poster:

53 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
This fits in with my thinking that nowadays there’s no such thing as a “bad car”. They all start every day without fail, they will all do motorway speeds, they all have aircon, electric windows, good mpg, are pretty safe in a crash, they’re put together ok, most have soft touch plastics etc etc etc.

There are however cars which I wouldn’t be seen dead in, or wouldn’t spend money on. It just boils down to taste.

Cars nowadays are infinitely better than they were. I think cars started getting “good” in the modern sense of the word in about 1995. I.e. all of my above criteria started appearing in even the least desirable cars. Before 1995, the difference between a good car and a st car was absolutely huge. Today that difference is mainly in refinement, and not whether it is reliable or not.

G13NVL

2,732 posts

83 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
SidewaysSi said:
daniel1920 said:
Well it depends how you define better.

Take a mk3 golf diesel and a mk7.
Compare the mpg.
Compare the nvh.
Compare the acceleration.
Compare the ride.
Compare the technology.
And finish it off by doing 40mph into a wall.
There is almost no situations they are objectively worse.

Of course this is all better for the buying public, but we are all PHs so why I have a ‘94 mx5.

Writing that made me also think, compare the rust at 10years old tongue out
Compare an E36 BMW (this week's favourite PH car) against a new F30.

Compare they agility
Compare the mechanical toughness
Compare the steering feel
Compare the handling
Compare the ease of oversteer
Compare the ride
Compare the weight
Compare the simplicity and ease of fixing when things go wrong
Compare the green credentials (if such things matter to you).

There are almost no situations where the new car is better. Though it is no doubt more flashy to most people and would survive better at 40mph when you crash as you were fiddling with your I Drive and bored senseless by the artificial steering feel.

That's why I don't drive a new car. Though new BMWs are better than most. A lot of new cars are horrendous to drive.
But most of these are all things for ‘drivers’ who like cars for pleasure things that most people who buy cars couldn’t care less about they want a good, reliable, safe mode of transport/ family carrier which modern cars are far better at providing.

Wooda80

1,743 posts

74 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
HustleRussell is right to recognise that there seemed to be a tremendous uplift in the quality of cars around 20 years ago. The best example I think of is the original Ford Focus compared to the last Ford Escort.

At the time people would have recognised the massive leap that the Focus represented in terms of performance, economy, safety, comfort and economy when compared to a Mark 2 Escort 20 years previously.

Other people would have looked at those 2 cars and lamented the massive increase in weight from 8-900kg to 11-1300kg, the corruption of the steering by FWD, the difficulty of working on the jam-packed engine bay all kinds of ECUs and everything hidden behind pointless plastic covers, the needless gimmicks such as electric operation for windows, mirrors and lock, bluetooth, navigation - and parking beepers: if only they designed it with a great big window instead of that letterbox then you wouldnt need those fancy fashion accessories.

Looking at the latest Focus, I can see a similar leap forward in the all of those areas too. The absorption of the extra cost is all the more remarkable when you consider that if I was buying by size rather than model name then I'd be buying a Fiesta not a Focus.

Would it be uncharitable of me if I suggested that the main criticism of moden cars comes amateur mechanics frustrated that they are no longer able to meddle with the cars?

ETA: For SidewaysSi: When it came out people made exactly the same criticisms of the E36 when it came out in comparison with the E21 smile

Edited by Wooda80 on Saturday 21st July 07:56

SidewaysSi

10,742 posts

233 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
G13NVL said:
SidewaysSi said:
daniel1920 said:
Well it depends how you define better.

Take a mk3 golf diesel and a mk7.
Compare the mpg.
Compare the nvh.
Compare the acceleration.
Compare the ride.
Compare the technology.
And finish it off by doing 40mph into a wall.
There is almost no situations they are objectively worse.

Of course this is all better for the buying public, but we are all PHs so why I have a ‘94 mx5.

Writing that made me also think, compare the rust at 10years old tongue out
Compare an E36 BMW (this week's favourite PH car) against a new F30.

Compare they agility
Compare the mechanical toughness
Compare the steering feel
Compare the handling
Compare the ease of oversteer
Compare the ride
Compare the weight
Compare the simplicity and ease of fixing when things go wrong
Compare the green credentials (if such things matter to you).

There are almost no situations where the new car is better. Though it is no doubt more flashy to most people and would survive better at 40mph when you crash as you were fiddling with your I Drive and bored senseless by the artificial steering feel.

That's why I don't drive a new car. Though new BMWs are better than most. A lot of new cars are horrendous to drive.
But most of these are all things for ‘drivers’ who like cars for pleasure things that most people who buy cars couldn’t care less about they want a good, reliable, safe mode of transport/ family carrier which modern cars are far better at providing.
Agree and goes without saying. I would question modern car reliability though (well outside the warranty/lease period anyway!). If I was looking for something newish, boring and non-enthusiast orientated, I personally would not buy a non Japanese (or even Korean) car without a decent warranty. Just not worth the hassle.

Orillion

177 posts

164 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
C.A.R. said:
Some modern cars are still genuinely horrendous. You mention Peugeot - have you ever driven a 2008? Awful thing. Recently I've had a few hire cars following a non-fault accident. One of these was a Renault Captur. I didn't know it was possible to make a far this bad in 2018. Drove it 5 miles before returning it for something else!
Could you tell us what was so bad about these cars? I don't have an axe to grind, as I have never driven either of these vehicles.

Big GT

1,798 posts

91 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
From an engineering perspective cars have got better as a tool from getting from A to B. Reliability, quality, safety, technology is leptons ahead of 20 years ago.

From this perspective a 4 series is leaps ahead of a E36, a Golf MK7.5 / Mk2, Focus / Escort etc

But as for excitement, handling, feel, looks, road presence then no things have moved backwards. Cars like F40's, 959's, Tuscans, Intergrale's, Quattro's, mad things, dangerous things, poster cars are becoming rarer and rarer.

So better? Depends on our viewpoint.





Justin Case

2,195 posts

133 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
In many ways cars are better than ever. They are well screwed together, safer for both occupants and other roadusers (eg pedestrians), more economical and less harmful to the environment. On the other hand, they are compromised in many ways by being seemingly aimed at the most shallow and vain in society (see a lot of the advertising) Oversize wheels and rubber band tyres, tacky DRLs, useless gimmicks that mean touchscreen that are less easy to navigate than a few well-place buttons and dials, and controls designed to eliminate all feedback, why can't feedback be engineered into an EPS system. The other main way in which they are worse is that they are designed to be assembled by robots, with little thought as to how they can be repaired. Yes, I would probably buy a new car given the choice, but I think I would b better off with the most basic model in the range, yet which would still have the same standard features, air-con, etc as the pricier versions,

Edited by Justin Case on Saturday 21st July 08:31


Edited by Justin Case on Saturday 21st July 09:15

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
Cars as white goods are getting better and better.

Cars of a few decades ago are better for different reasons

NDNDNDND

2,001 posts

182 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
Wooda80 said:
HustleRussell is right to recognise that there seemed to be a tremendous uplift in the quality of cars around 20 years ago. The best example I think of is the original Ford Focus compared to the last Ford Escort.

At the time people would have recognised the massive leap that the Focus represented in terms of performance, economy, safety, comfort and economy when compared to a Mark 2 Escort 20 years previously.

Other people would have looked at those 2 cars and lamented the massive increase in weight from 8-900kg to 11-1300kg, the corruption of the steering by FWD, the difficulty of working on the jam-packed engine bay all kinds of ECUs and everything hidden behind pointless plastic covers, the needless gimmicks such as electric operation for windows, mirrors and lock, bluetooth, navigation - and parking beepers: if only they designed it with a great big window instead of that letterbox then you wouldnt need those fancy fashion accessories.

Looking at the latest Focus, I can see a similar leap forward in the all of those areas too. The absorption of the extra cost is all the more remarkable when you consider that if I was buying by size rather than model name then I'd be buying a Fiesta not a Focus.

Would it be uncharitable of me if I suggested that the main criticism of moden cars comes amateur mechanics frustrated that they are no longer able to meddle with the cars?

ETA: For SidewaysSi: When it came out people made exactly the same criticisms of the E36 when it came out in comparison with the E21 smile

Edited by Wooda80 on Saturday 21st July 07:56
I think you need to do some more research...

Firstly, the E36 superseded the E30.

Secondly, the mk4 escort was fwd, as had been the mk3, and was widely considered to be completely st. The focus was a massively better car, especially in how it drove.

Cloudy147

2,705 posts

182 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
On the whole, I think yes, cars are getting better.

A few years ago I bought a 1997 Audi A4 for a bit of shedding. The dashboard was nice to touch, but everything was of its time. The roofline was low, the seats were unsupportive and it wasn't as quiet as new cars. A new focus is miles better.

My Cayenne is 13 years old. I drove one when they were new and it felt like the poshest thing on the market to me. Now, the interior design looks old as design and quality have improved all the time.

Loads of other examples but I think newer cars are better. Design, comfort, quality, driving and performance. Its exciting to see what manufacturers can come up with next. They don't always get the design right (Honda Civic! Goodness me what were they thinking?!), but overall, developments are fab.

Love lots of old cars, but for day to day driving, newer stuff is best in my view.

LuS1fer

41,086 posts

244 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
My first car, in 1977, was a 13 year old Austin A40 which was rusty, full of filler, pumped out 48hp and did 37mpg. It was light, got lighter by the day, as did most 70s cars and I loved the heavy steering, cross-ply tyres and constant maintenance.
30 plus cars later, I have a 5 year old Fiesta ST that has nigh on 200 hp, also does 38 mpg, has no rust...well, you get the idea.

Similarly, I have never suffered the tint of rose that comes from age. A good modern car is better than a good old car, in general, even if it has lost character in the process. I recently had Ford Ka+ on holiday. A more dull, banal and uninspiring car would be hard to find but it's better than an Allegro or Morris Marina and will last 10 times longer than an Alfasud.

The "rub" is that, in past times, car enthusiasts were forged from having to maintain and repair your own car. Manufacturers know the money is in servicing so have striven to turn cars into white goods and have used various means to dissuade any DIY by covering the engine, using Torx fasteners and electronics. I do miss the simplicity of older cars but nobody is going to break into your car to nick your radio, any more and, in general, everything will work for the next 10 years.

In summary, even modern bad cars are pretty good. While there have been some iconic beacons, in the past, the truth is that they were few and far between and most cars were very humdrum, if better styled.

Wooda80

1,743 posts

74 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
NDNDNDND said:
I think you need to do some more research...

Firstly, the E36 superseded the E30.

Secondly, the mk4 escort was fwd, as had been the mk3, and was widely considered to be completely st. The focus was a massively better car, especially in how it drove.
I was comparing the E36 and the Mk 1 Focus with their predecessors of 20 years prior, rather than their immediate predecessors.

So 90s E36 vs 70s E21, 1998 Mk1 Focus vs 1975 Mk2 Escort. I accept that the Focus was regarded as one of the best FWD hatchbacks of its time ( as was the Mark 3 Escort when it was new incidentally ) but there were always luddites who would say they preferred the simple RWD of 20 years prior!

rxe

6,700 posts

102 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
Cars as transport vs cars as fun .... and at what price level?

Cheap cars as transport are immeasurably better. They start, they go, they handle (well enough). Yes, they're inert, have no soul and aren't pined after when they are gone but they are better.

Some expensive cars are better. Technology has given us 500 HP saloons that can be driven by a muppet and not put in a hedge, well, as long as they keep the traction control on.

Second hand cars are way better and cheaper. In 1991 I paid £2000 for an Alfetta GTV - you could see the road if you lifted the carpet. I was spannering it every weekend, and still have it. In 2017, I paid £300 for an Alfa 156 that with £1000 of mods outhandles and out accelerates the Alfetta, while having a nice leather interior, working air-con, a working heater and some chance of survivability in a crash. By any measure the younger car is better. I still have the Alfetta, and it is great at what it is, but it has its limits.

I think the ability to spanner is a diversion. Anyone moderately determined can spanner a modern car as long as they pick the manufacturer carefully. I know Alfas, and I've got full dealer level diagnostics for everything up to the Giulia - the Giulia is about 50% available and more is coming with every release of the software that costs £50. Clearly it is possible to pick a manufacturer that makes this impossible - so don't pick these cars as spannering propositions.

vikingaero

10,256 posts

168 months

Saturday 21st July 2018
quotequote all
I was behind a new 2018 Polo in a lane to turn left. A new 2018 Golf pulled up in the lane next to us and I swear there was nothing in it width wise. So on this basis the next Golf is going to be a Fatso.