RE: Geely plans ?1.5bn Lotus investment
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
Agree. The Evora doesn’t seem to be any lighter than the Cayman. In the world of sports cars many people have become better at playing the Lotus cars than Lotus have. They’ve downsized engines, used clever engineering, removed a lot of weight, applied excellent handling and because they own the finance houses and control the used values they are cheaper. .
Getting lighter has become harder and more expensive. In the old days they could eliminate equipment (and NVH materials etc) and make compromises on some aspects of structure. Lots more legislation driven equipment and structure, and some of the very lightweight materials are expensive (and complex) to develop / tool / industrialize.
It’s very hard for a poorly financed company to compete on that front with the big boys (even if the big boys are motivated by efficiency more than dynamics).
I’d say it’s remakable how good a car the Evora is. Viery limited resources, not very light, but a fabulous drivers car.
Hungrymc said:
Getting lighter has become harder and more expensive. In the old days they could eliminate equipment (and NVH materials etc) and make compromises on some aspects of structure.
Lots more legislation driven equipment and structure, and some of the very lightweight materials are expensive (and complex) to develop / tool / industrialize.
It’s very hard for a poorly financed company to compete on that front with the big boys (even if the big boys are motivated by efficiency more than dynamics).
I’d say it’s remakable how good a car the Evora is. Viery limited resources, not very light, but a fabulous drivers car.
The Evora GT430 goes to show what Lotus can do with an Evora when they focus on making it as light as possibleLots more legislation driven equipment and structure, and some of the very lightweight materials are expensive (and complex) to develop / tool / industrialize.
It’s very hard for a poorly financed company to compete on that front with the big boys (even if the big boys are motivated by efficiency more than dynamics).
I’d say it’s remakable how good a car the Evora is. Viery limited resources, not very light, but a fabulous drivers car.
Wayoftheflower said:
DonkeyApple said:
You have to feel a bit sorry for Gales who passionately busted his balls on a huge turd sandwich to deliver some great cars, pull the business back together and keep it from failing to have been disposed of as part of the long term plan to invest properly in Lotus.
I wonder if he was binned because he disagreed with the proposed new products?
Is that the same Gales who after decimating the engineering and product development departments released nothing but bodykits and sticker packs for three years?I wonder if he was binned because he disagreed with the proposed new products?
He was there to make the books look good enough to lure a new investor and lucked out when Geely wanted control of Proton and Lotus was part of the bigger deal.
His accomplishments total less than that of caretaker Aslam Farikullah, a rare skill.
Before Gales
Elise 1.8 - roadster
Exige 1.8 - coupe
Evora 2+2 v6 coupe
Gales
Elise 1.6 - roadster & Coupe
Exige v6 - roadster & coupe
Evora 2+2 v6 coupe - where is the roadster
It’s unfortunate that you chose to lead with a photo of a Lotus next to a couple of old sheds. Is that an attempt to reinforce the old view that they are knocked together by Norfolk turnip farmers?
Back on topic, I think this is great news. At the very least it ensures Lotus have a future. As much as I’d like to see Lotus sticking to the lightweight sportscars that they are best at, I accept that to survive and thrive they have to make what the wider public want.
My hope is that they continue to make cars that appeal to the pure driving enthusiast, while making profits from SUVs and fast 4-seaters. Platform sharing could see Lotus making their own version of everything in the Volvo range, while still making the cars that are true to their DNA, just as Porsche do within the VAG group.
I don’t think Lotus should be going up against Porsche directly by matching them model for model. Aston Martin are doing well by selling to the same market sector as Porsche, but with a very different model line-up. BMW are also overlapping with the 6 and 8 series. And then there is McLaren with the Sports series. It’s a crowded market, but Lotus need to make cars that buyers will consider as serious alternatives when spending similar money.
Back on topic, I think this is great news. At the very least it ensures Lotus have a future. As much as I’d like to see Lotus sticking to the lightweight sportscars that they are best at, I accept that to survive and thrive they have to make what the wider public want.
My hope is that they continue to make cars that appeal to the pure driving enthusiast, while making profits from SUVs and fast 4-seaters. Platform sharing could see Lotus making their own version of everything in the Volvo range, while still making the cars that are true to their DNA, just as Porsche do within the VAG group.
I don’t think Lotus should be going up against Porsche directly by matching them model for model. Aston Martin are doing well by selling to the same market sector as Porsche, but with a very different model line-up. BMW are also overlapping with the 6 and 8 series. And then there is McLaren with the Sports series. It’s a crowded market, but Lotus need to make cars that buyers will consider as serious alternatives when spending similar money.
DonkeyApple said:
If Lotus is about ‘adding lightness’ then Lotus should be able to have an absolute field day in the SUV segment. It’s a segment that absolutely everything Chapman stood for and believed in could be brought to bear on. It’s fat, it clumsy, it’s thirsty and it’s over priced. Lotus ethics can make it light, nimble, efficient and cheaper.
Perhaps 15 years ago that's true, but with the heavy focus on difficult emissions targets, weight has become the enemy of all production cars... People like Volvo, VAG, Ford, BMW etc are all spending hundreds of millions on research into lightweight design without compromising safety.Imho a Lotus SUV will be badge engineering to shift units, trying to ape what Porsche did with the Cayenne.
saaby93 said:
Wayoftheflower said:
DonkeyApple said:
You have to feel a bit sorry for Gales who passionately busted his balls on a huge turd sandwich to deliver some great cars, pull the business back together and keep it from failing to have been disposed of as part of the long term plan to invest properly in Lotus.
I wonder if he was binned because he disagreed with the proposed new products?
Is that the same Gales who after decimating the engineering and product development departments released nothing but bodykits and sticker packs for three years?I wonder if he was binned because he disagreed with the proposed new products?
He was there to make the books look good enough to lure a new investor and lucked out when Geely wanted control of Proton and Lotus was part of the bigger deal.
His accomplishments total less than that of caretaker Aslam Farikullah, a rare skill.
Before Gales
Elise 1.8 - roadster
Exige 1.8 - coupe
Evora 2+2 v6 coupe
Gales
Elise 1.6 - roadster & Coupe
Exige v6 - roadster & coupe
Evora 2+2 v6 coupe - where is the roadster
Gales Sept 2015 said:
I had the U.S. in mind when I came (to Lotus); that was one of my first projects. The Roadster is first. It’s going to appear in summer 2016.
source This shows the breadth of his failure in running Lotus.
With limited resources he tightened everything up in Hethel. The Exige 410 that beat the well regarded Cayman GTS in this month's Evo was developed under his watch. The brand is in a better place now. Many of these biweekly models have faired very well in group tests. Good platform for Geely to launch from.
Ironically Bahar's crazy plans might have been viable if they'd had that sort of investment available at the time.
It does seem that Geely are going to try to turn Lotus in their own Porsche... pursuing volume sales in the "mainstream sporty" market places with actual sports cars presumably becoming a sideline to help the brand sell barges and SUVs. It'll be interesting to see whether it works.
It does seem that Geely are going to try to turn Lotus in their own Porsche... pursuing volume sales in the "mainstream sporty" market places with actual sports cars presumably becoming a sideline to help the brand sell barges and SUVs. It'll be interesting to see whether it works.
Edited by kambites on Friday 10th August 10:48
Krikkit said:
DonkeyApple said:
If Lotus is about ‘adding lightness’ then Lotus should be able to have an absolute field day in the SUV segment. It’s a segment that absolutely everything Chapman stood for and believed in could be brought to bear on. It’s fat, it clumsy, it’s thirsty and it’s over priced. Lotus ethics can make it light, nimble, efficient and cheaper.
Perhaps 15 years ago that's true, but with the heavy focus on difficult emissions targets, weight has become the enemy of all production cars... People like Volvo, VAG, Ford, BMW etc are all spending hundreds of millions on research into lightweight design without compromising safety.Imho a Lotus SUV will be badge engineering to shift units, trying to ape what Porsche did with the Cayenne.
That’s why I mentioned above that the only way to add ‘real’ Lotus is to remove all the heavy life support stuff that modern consumers demand but I suspect that the average consumer would find it abhorrent to move a seat themselves or that their steering wheel doesn’t heat up.
Arguably the whole problem with the Lotus brand is that only about a thousand people on the planet each year are interested in lightness or simplicity. Whereas this year 81.5 million consumers will focus on ICE systems, programmed seats, millions of buttons and settings, competitive finance packages and what their purchase says to the public about them. And if Lotus want to sell non sports cars then those are the things that they have to start focusing on if they want to attract any of those 81.5m consumers.
To be honest the most crucial thing Geely need to change with Lotus is the brand image because if that stays as it is then no one is going to be buying any Lotus SUVs or estates without having to slash the profit margins away to attract consumers by price rather than by brand. Which obviously defeats the entire point of entering the highly lucrative SUV market.
What does the Lotus brand mean to the atypical consumer? Is portraying an image of success or power, style, cool, trend leader? If we live ok at how premium goods are sold in the modern consumer market place is the message from Lotus inline with any of this? And if there were a viable global business in not being with the pack and selling the brand in the exact same way then firms would already be doing it. But to sell premium products in size you need to key ingredients, competitive finance and an aspirational product. You need the atypical consumer to be under the impression that the Lotus brand on his completely generic and identail, utility transport box is of importance and transmits a message to the wider society that this consumer is a premium consumer.
It’s all tremendously sad but we all know that to sell in bulk you have to either be cheap or be aspirational and that if you want to meet the latter then you need to match your product to what the largest consumer demographic currently values as aspirational. Which is horrific.
DonkeyApple said:
What does the Lotus brand mean to the atypical consumer? Is portraying an image of success or power, style, cool, trend leader? If we live ok at how premium goods are sold in the modern consumer market place is the message from Lotus inline with any of this? And if there were a viable global business in not being with the pack and selling the brand in the exact same way then firms would already be doing it. But to sell premium products in size you need to key ingredients, competitive finance and an aspirational product. You need the atypical consumer to be under the impression that the Lotus brand on his completely generic and identail, utility transport box is of importance and transmits a message to the wider society that this consumer is a premium consumer.
don't agree. with investment things can be aspirational quite quickly, esp markets in the east.20 yrs ago Burberry just made raincoats. a short time after the new ceo joined it was an expensive global brand. then the baseball caps...
I say this in an objective manner. personally i love the light Lotus. The Elise may be 25 years old, but it's still unbeaten as the the civilised track car (i just created a segment there. civilised above a Caterham, but still light and fun below a Porsche). However, from a business pov i do not expect the new Elise to be as tactile or focused. it has to get flabby to sell.
I'm glad to see that the investment is there for Lotus. As a fan of the brand (and having had 2 Elise's as company cars many years ago) it can only be good news. Proper development of new products is needed fo sure, rather than just another [slightly different power & stickers] limited edition of a current car.
No doubting that the SUV market is still growing, and probably will for some years to come, so its not a bad shout. China is a market where sports cars struggle as it is a "driven" culture, not a driver's culture, and has huge potential, but what must not be forgotten about is the brand itself. What does it mean to the different markets of the world? Here in the UK and Europe (and probably a bit of the US to be fair) Lotus is renowned for lightweight sports cars, and therefore has many fans and owners. Those owners who need the other car in the household to be a practical one will obviously look at an SUV wearing the same badge as their fun car. However, outside this market, will there be enough non-enthusiasts to justify the numbers probably required? If you were to ask a potential SUV buyer in India (another fast-developing market) or Asia would they consider a Lotus, would the brand mean anything to them? Porsche did it with the Cayenne because it is a very established brand as will Ferrari when/if they bring one to market. I just wonder if this might be a move too far for them? If you live under the same parental umbrella as a company like Volvo who can build this type of car and sell it well, is it not better to concentrate on what you are good at and develop a range of sports cars that compete in different segments and do them well rather than move into new ones and do it just 'OK-ish'? As much as the Bahar era was a bit bizarre and, maybe, a bit far-fetched, to have a range like he proposed (Boxster/Cayman beater in Elise/Evora, track weapon in Exige, proper 2+2 911-like car in Elan and flagship supercar in Esprit (maybe the 4 door to rival Panamera/Rapide) did make a bit more sense.
Maybe I'm just a bit of a cynic, but I remember questioning the reason for badging the Rapide as an Aston Martin and not (as tradition dictated) a Lagonda when I worked there, and this was purely down to the Lagonda brand not really meaning anything in new markets they were trying to get into. You can see now that they are starting to market it and build a following, but that will take time.
No doubting that the SUV market is still growing, and probably will for some years to come, so its not a bad shout. China is a market where sports cars struggle as it is a "driven" culture, not a driver's culture, and has huge potential, but what must not be forgotten about is the brand itself. What does it mean to the different markets of the world? Here in the UK and Europe (and probably a bit of the US to be fair) Lotus is renowned for lightweight sports cars, and therefore has many fans and owners. Those owners who need the other car in the household to be a practical one will obviously look at an SUV wearing the same badge as their fun car. However, outside this market, will there be enough non-enthusiasts to justify the numbers probably required? If you were to ask a potential SUV buyer in India (another fast-developing market) or Asia would they consider a Lotus, would the brand mean anything to them? Porsche did it with the Cayenne because it is a very established brand as will Ferrari when/if they bring one to market. I just wonder if this might be a move too far for them? If you live under the same parental umbrella as a company like Volvo who can build this type of car and sell it well, is it not better to concentrate on what you are good at and develop a range of sports cars that compete in different segments and do them well rather than move into new ones and do it just 'OK-ish'? As much as the Bahar era was a bit bizarre and, maybe, a bit far-fetched, to have a range like he proposed (Boxster/Cayman beater in Elise/Evora, track weapon in Exige, proper 2+2 911-like car in Elan and flagship supercar in Esprit (maybe the 4 door to rival Panamera/Rapide) did make a bit more sense.
Maybe I'm just a bit of a cynic, but I remember questioning the reason for badging the Rapide as an Aston Martin and not (as tradition dictated) a Lagonda when I worked there, and this was purely down to the Lagonda brand not really meaning anything in new markets they were trying to get into. You can see now that they are starting to market it and build a following, but that will take time.
CABC said:
With limited resources he tightened everything up in Hethel. The Exige 410 that beat the well regarded Cayman GTS in this month's Evo was developed under his watch. The brand is in a better place now. Many of these biweekly models have faired very well in group tests. Good platform for Geely to launch from.
The Exige 410 starts at £85K. It should knock the Cayman into next week.moonigan said:
CABC said:
With limited resources he tightened everything up in Hethel. The Exige 410 that beat the well regarded Cayman GTS in this month's Evo was developed under his watch. The brand is in a better place now. Many of these biweekly models have faired very well in group tests. Good platform for Geely to launch from.
The Exige 410 starts at £85K. It should knock the Cayman into next week.
with £85k to spend he/she wont be buying the Cayman..they'll be buying its bigger brother.Therein lies the problem..
Have to be honest..in the New Forest area I very rarely (hardly ever !!!) see a new Exige or new Evora on the road. I see plenty other brand-spankin NEW exotica.
Time for a major rethink imo...
spagbogdog said:
moonigan said:
CABC said:
With limited resources he tightened everything up in Hethel. The Exige 410 that beat the well regarded Cayman GTS in this month's Evo was developed under his watch. The brand is in a better place now. Many of these biweekly models have faired very well in group tests. Good platform for Geely to launch from.
The Exige 410 starts at £85K. It should knock the Cayman into next week. with £85k to spend he/she wont be buying the Cayman..they'll be buying its bigger brother.Therein lies the problem..
Have to be honest..in the New Forest area I very rarely (hardly ever !!!) see a new Exige or new Evora on the road. I see plenty other brand-spankin NEW exotica.
Time for a major rethink imo...
DonkeyApple said:
Onehp said:
Despite rumours to the opposite, modern cars are getting lighter at least technologically seen. Otherwise with all the safety, comfort and kit and ever growing size, cars would weigh 500kg more on average if no advances were made in material and production tech. A fairly barren, not too big Evora S is 1500kg (weighed by the same standard as any other normal car). Don't expect Lotus SUV's to be magically massively lighter...
Agree. The Evora doesn’t seem to be any lighter than the Cayman. In the world of sports cars many people have become better at playing the Lotus cars than Lotus have. They’ve downsized engines, used clever engineering, removed a lot of weight, applied excellent handling and because they own the finance houses and control the used values they are cheaper. Edited by Onehp on Thursday 9th August 19:55
But the SUV segment does still have a huge amount of fat in it as most a built as mobile life support systems for fat, lazy and weak people who require hundreds of heavy motors to help them do anything more complex and taxing than breathing.
Lotus won’t ever do it but I would love to see a super light SUV, focussed on B road use. Smaller engine with a simplified drivetrain and the bare minimum of life support systems and pile warmers.
DonkeyApple said:
Agree. The Evora doesn’t seem to be any lighter than the Cayman.
Hardly a fair comparison given that the Evora is designed to be a 2+2. Mind you the Evora isn't massively lighter than the 911 either (about 100kg I think comparing current models. Edited by kambites on Friday 10th August 13:48
Has this been reposted recently? Oddly fitting 
.
Regarding the article: good news, no? Quite a substantial investment, and not a small risk for Geely IMO. Which would indicate they really want this to succeed and hopefully realise this will take years if it works out at all.
At any rate -- I think it's the first time Lotus is owned by a large automaker that is more or less compatible + patient + understands what they bought.
Half tongue in cheek -- how much more likely is a 35k Elise Mk4 now? Where can they save and how much?
.Regarding the article: good news, no? Quite a substantial investment, and not a small risk for Geely IMO. Which would indicate they really want this to succeed and hopefully realise this will take years if it works out at all.
At any rate -- I think it's the first time Lotus is owned by a large automaker that is more or less compatible + patient + understands what they bought.
Half tongue in cheek -- how much more likely is a 35k Elise Mk4 now? Where can they save and how much?
- (Much) better purchasing power and better access to China
- Outsourcing production steps to China (e.g. chassis bonding, body parts) and to Volvo (drivetrain)
- Potentially replace GRP clams with mass produceable thermoplastic parts à la Smart (they could afford the tooling now)
- Switch to Volvo drive train which should be much cheaper for them
- ...
CABC said:
don't agree. with investment things can be aspirational quite quickly, esp markets in the east.
20 yrs ago Burberry just made raincoats. a short time after the new ceo joined it was an expensive global brand. then the baseball caps...
I say this in an objective manner. personally i love the light Lotus. The Elise may be 25 years old, but it's still unbeaten as the the civilised track car (i just created a segment there. civilised above a Caterham, but still light and fun below a Porsche). However, from a business pov i do not expect the new Elise to be as tactile or focused. it has to get flabby to sell.
Burberry was an extremely expensive, high quality and aspirational product that was very easy to leverage other products off the back of. Same with Porsche. Lotus’s modern issue is that it is none of these. That’s what Geely need to overcome with their money and time. They aren’t starting with a premium brand but have to make it aspirational to the masses. 20 yrs ago Burberry just made raincoats. a short time after the new ceo joined it was an expensive global brand. then the baseball caps...
I say this in an objective manner. personally i love the light Lotus. The Elise may be 25 years old, but it's still unbeaten as the the civilised track car (i just created a segment there. civilised above a Caterham, but still light and fun below a Porsche). However, from a business pov i do not expect the new Elise to be as tactile or focused. it has to get flabby to sell.
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