Mechanical Sympathy.Thing of the past.
Discussion
Mave said:
66mpg said:
Another point to consider: since the demise of brake pads with asbestos the friction material wears the disks much faster. We’re all going to be buying more disks than we used to.
It's probably been 20 years since they stopped putting asbestos into brake pads so I think we should be used to it by now! :-) On a slightly different slant, I was at Tatton Park at the weekend where, every so often, someone in the "Dream Cars" tent would start an almost-new Lamborghini of some kind and, a few seconds later, rev it repeatedly until it was bouncing off the rev limiter.
Should I have made a note of the VIN and make sure I never buy it, or do modern engines cope with that kind of stuff now?
Should I have made a note of the VIN and make sure I never buy it, or do modern engines cope with that kind of stuff now?
colonel c said:
Looking at my recent service invoice for my Defender. I see an advice note stating ‘rear brake discs required next pad change’.
Nothing unusual there. However it got me thinking. In forty odd years of motoring I have never had to replace disks before. Very rarely pads and never a clutch. I like to think this is down to some extent of driving with a scene of mechanical Sympathy. Is this another part of driving that will fall by the wayside as EVs and sophisticated hybrids takeover from the conventional internal combustion engine and mechanical power train?
My M135i needed new rear pads at 32k.Nothing unusual there. However it got me thinking. In forty odd years of motoring I have never had to replace disks before. Very rarely pads and never a clutch. I like to think this is down to some extent of driving with a scene of mechanical Sympathy. Is this another part of driving that will fall by the wayside as EVs and sophisticated hybrids takeover from the conventional internal combustion engine and mechanical power train?
Road car not tracked or abused.
The discs were OK but ideally would be changed.
Back in the day brakes were rubbish and didn't work so of course nowadays they are used more... people generally go faster.
I find most people to be generally mechanically sympathetic in that they tend not to rag their cars.
Reg Local said:
RobM77 said:
It's something I often think of and I'm not sure if it's strictly mechanical sympathy or not... Like I suspect you do, if I'm doing 50mph in a 50 limit and see a 30 limit coming up, I try to judge where I can back off so that I'm doing 30mph when I enter that limit without braking. Likewise, if there's a bend coming up I judge the turn-in speed I want in a similar fashion. Same for junctions, traffic lights (cold or hot etc) etc. I've noticed that most people don't do this, and I've often wondered why. Is it all the cycling I do and how that gives me an appreciation of energy and momentum? Or is it mechanical sympathy? I'm not really sure.
One interesting result of this is that despite driving very quickly, I record pretty high mpg figures. The downside is that when I'm a passenger and people are actively driving their car towards a red light it makes me squirm a bit.
One thing it might be is simply looking and thinking further ahead... Most of the driving problems that certain bad drivers I know have simply boil down to not looking far enough ahead. This also shows on motorways, where I'd hazard I guess you can stick to a speed and flow in and out of lanes appropriately, whereas others seem to be constantly slowing for lorries and then accelerating to pass them - this isn't mechanical sympathy, just thinking ahead.
Completely agree.One interesting result of this is that despite driving very quickly, I record pretty high mpg figures. The downside is that when I'm a passenger and people are actively driving their car towards a red light it makes me squirm a bit.
One thing it might be is simply looking and thinking further ahead... Most of the driving problems that certain bad drivers I know have simply boil down to not looking far enough ahead. This also shows on motorways, where I'd hazard I guess you can stick to a speed and flow in and out of lanes appropriately, whereas others seem to be constantly slowing for lorries and then accelerating to pass them - this isn't mechanical sympathy, just thinking ahead.
I’ve been driving for 32 years & well in excess of a million miles & I’ve never had to replace a clutch. I’ve had my current car from almost new - it’s close to 40,000 miles now on it’s first set of brake pads & they’re absolutely nowhere near ready for replacing. And no, I don’t drive it slowly (see my Youtubes!).
A friend has had his car from new & it’s now on 240,000 miles & still on its first clutch.
An anticipatory driving style translates automatically into a mechanically sympathetic driving style (and a more fuel efficient style).
Mrs Local, on the other hand...
IME by far the biggest factor is modern stability control systems. The early ones basically just cut engine power. The more modern clever systems use a lot more braking for stability, especially the rear brakes.
On the plus side, cuts down on tyre wear which may ultimately be cheaper if you’re running 265 section tyres.
But Regardless of rear brakes and stability control, if agree that mechanical sympathy seems to be a thing of the past. In reality I think it’s more of a case of smashing over speed bumps at 40 mph. Never checking oil levels, tyre pressures, tread depth etc
Potentially because the perceived costs of cars have dropped massively (eg for many it’s gone from the second most expensive purchase you make to a monthly cost) , combined with massively more competent cars - the abuse they can take is huge so people have less and less interest in the details of motoring and just hop in and turn the key/press the button etc
On the plus side, cuts down on tyre wear which may ultimately be cheaper if you’re running 265 section tyres.
But Regardless of rear brakes and stability control, if agree that mechanical sympathy seems to be a thing of the past. In reality I think it’s more of a case of smashing over speed bumps at 40 mph. Never checking oil levels, tyre pressures, tread depth etc
Potentially because the perceived costs of cars have dropped massively (eg for many it’s gone from the second most expensive purchase you make to a monthly cost) , combined with massively more competent cars - the abuse they can take is huge so people have less and less interest in the details of motoring and just hop in and turn the key/press the button etc
Edited by survivalist on Tuesday 21st August 20:17
Reg Local said:
RobM77 said:
It's something I often think of and I'm not sure if it's strictly mechanical sympathy or not... Like I suspect you do, if I'm doing 50mph in a 50 limit and see a 30 limit coming up, I try to judge where I can back off so that I'm doing 30mph when I enter that limit without braking. Likewise, if there's a bend coming up I judge the turn-in speed I want in a similar fashion. Same for junctions, traffic lights (cold or hot etc) etc. I've noticed that most people don't do this, and I've often wondered why. Is it all the cycling I do and how that gives me an appreciation of energy and momentum? Or is it mechanical sympathy? I'm not really sure.
One interesting result of this is that despite driving very quickly, I record pretty high mpg figures. The downside is that when I'm a passenger and people are actively driving their car towards a red light it makes me squirm a bit.
One thing it might be is simply looking and thinking further ahead... Most of the driving problems that certain bad drivers I know have simply boil down to not looking far enough ahead. This also shows on motorways, where I'd hazard I guess you can stick to a speed and flow in and out of lanes appropriately, whereas others seem to be constantly slowing for lorries and then accelerating to pass them - this isn't mechanical sympathy, just thinking ahead.
Completely agree.One interesting result of this is that despite driving very quickly, I record pretty high mpg figures. The downside is that when I'm a passenger and people are actively driving their car towards a red light it makes me squirm a bit.
One thing it might be is simply looking and thinking further ahead... Most of the driving problems that certain bad drivers I know have simply boil down to not looking far enough ahead. This also shows on motorways, where I'd hazard I guess you can stick to a speed and flow in and out of lanes appropriately, whereas others seem to be constantly slowing for lorries and then accelerating to pass them - this isn't mechanical sympathy, just thinking ahead.
I’ve been driving for 32 years & well in excess of a million miles & I’ve never had to replace a clutch. I’ve had my current car from almost new - it’s close to 40,000 miles now on it’s first set of brake pads & they’re absolutely nowhere near ready for replacing. And no, I don’t drive it slowly (see my Youtubes!).
A friend has had his car from new & it’s now on 240,000 miles & still on its first clutch.
An anticipatory driving style translates automatically into a mechanically sympathetic driving style (and a more fuel efficient style).
Mrs Local, on the other hand...
My mate sold his 7.5ton Merc Recovery truck with IIRC 300,000 miles on it
The buyer asked when it had last had a clutch
He was surprised to find out it had never had one.
He wasn't sure whether to be pleased that it had been treated so well or upset at the thought that a 300k clutch was still fitted.
The buyer asked when it had last had a clutch
He was surprised to find out it had never had one.
He wasn't sure whether to be pleased that it had been treated so well or upset at the thought that a 300k clutch was still fitted.
Lorry clutches are built to take the strain. Most cars with clutch problems actually have had a dual mass flywheel failure. Incidentally I was warned by a garage that my DMF was about to fail about four years and 50k miles ago, it still hasn't failed and isn't any worse than it was then.
Cars are heavier than they used to be so suspension wears faster, also roads are in a poor state so it exacerbates the problem.
Cars are heavier than they used to be so suspension wears faster, also roads are in a poor state so it exacerbates the problem.
Regarding high mileage clutches, it's obviously going to depend on how the car is used, lots of motorway work and theoretically it'll last forever, stop start town driving will wear it out a lot quicker. I had to fit a new clutch to my Mondeo a while back, at nearly 150k the friction plate was barely worn (it still had the little grooves in it), the dmf was checked as per the manufacturers specs and found to be barely worn (so it stayed where it was!) but the slave cylinder had disintegrated. I also had to do the rear discs on the e39 for it's mot earlier in the year, it wouldn't have surprised me if it was the first time it had had rear discs judging by the fun I had getting one of them off!
Edited by njw1 on Tuesday 21st August 20:59
RobM77 said:
It's something I often think of and I'm not sure if it's strictly mechanical sympathy or not... Like I suspect you do, if I'm doing 50mph in a 50 limit and see a 30 limit coming up, I try to judge where I can back off so that I'm doing 30mph when I enter that limit without braking. Likewise, if there's a bend coming up I judge the turn-in speed I want in a similar fashion. Same for junctions, traffic lights (cold or hot etc) etc. I've noticed that most people don't do this, and I've often wondered why. Is it all the cycling I do and how that gives me an appreciation of energy and momentum? Or is it mechanical sympathy? I'm not really sure.
One interesting result of this is that despite driving very quickly, I record pretty high mpg figures. The downside is that when I'm a passenger and people are actively driving their car towards a red light it makes me squirm a bit.
One thing it might be is simply looking and thinking further ahead... Most of the driving problems that certain bad drivers I know have simply boil down to not looking far enough ahead. This also shows on motorways, where I'd hazard I guess you can stick to a speed and flow in and out of lanes appropriately, whereas others seem to be constantly slowing for lorries and then accelerating to pass them - this isn't mechanical sympathy, just thinking ahead.
I am a train driver, InterCity. This is how we like to drive trains, with anticipation and margin. It is more comfortable, more frugal and safer. This driving style comes under the umbrella terms "defensive driving" or "eco driving." This is also a more engaging way to drive as you can always improve. Mechanical sympathy go hand in hand with passenger comfort and I enjoy it very much. That said I am not mechanically sympathetic in my car beyond letting the oils get off the stops before increasing my rev range.One interesting result of this is that despite driving very quickly, I record pretty high mpg figures. The downside is that when I'm a passenger and people are actively driving their car towards a red light it makes me squirm a bit.
One thing it might be is simply looking and thinking further ahead... Most of the driving problems that certain bad drivers I know have simply boil down to not looking far enough ahead. This also shows on motorways, where I'd hazard I guess you can stick to a speed and flow in and out of lanes appropriately, whereas others seem to be constantly slowing for lorries and then accelerating to pass them - this isn't mechanical sympathy, just thinking ahead.
TooMany2cvs said:
Mave said:
66mpg said:
Another point to consider: since the demise of brake pads with asbestos the friction material wears the disks much faster. We’re all going to be buying more disks than we used to.
It's probably been 20 years since they stopped putting asbestos into brake pads so I think we should be used to it by now! :-) Test driver said:
spookly said:
Driving in a way to conserve brake pads and disks makes Jack a dull boy.
Exactly. Rolling road blocks ffs; shameful.I think DMF failure is often people doing things like labouring the car in the wrong (too high) gear which causes juddering or vibration.
I think regular good, hard application of the brakes is good for them, rear callipers especially are a sod for seizing on most cars, simply because they don't move enough. Modern car brakes are so good you never really brake really heavily as you'd ingest a kidney or something, so I usually pull the hand brake up and down a few times, or drive with it a few clicks on.
I think regular good, hard application of the brakes is good for them, rear callipers especially are a sod for seizing on most cars, simply because they don't move enough. Modern car brakes are so good you never really brake really heavily as you'd ingest a kidney or something, so I usually pull the hand brake up and down a few times, or drive with it a few clicks on.
Why would you not want to use your brakes?? Given that they are there, and consumables, why wouldn’t you want use the vehicle as hard as possible within the given limits?
a). It’s more fun
b). The money you save is irrelevant inside the total cost of vehicle ownership
c). It’s still more fun
I ride motorcycles so would say my reading ahead and planning is better than most car drivers but I would still wait until the 30 sign before I started slowing down, even though I probably saw it aaaaages ago
I wouldn’t say I was an especially sympathetic person though, mechanically or otherwise, I just don’t really care. I enjoy the sensation of acceleration and don’t really mind if it means having to replace bits here and there.
a). It’s more fun
b). The money you save is irrelevant inside the total cost of vehicle ownership
c). It’s still more fun
I ride motorcycles so would say my reading ahead and planning is better than most car drivers but I would still wait until the 30 sign before I started slowing down, even though I probably saw it aaaaages ago
I wouldn’t say I was an especially sympathetic person though, mechanically or otherwise, I just don’t really care. I enjoy the sensation of acceleration and don’t really mind if it means having to replace bits here and there.
I think a lot of it also has to do with a changing ownership model. Not to start the PH hot topic of PCP vs lease vs outright purchase but in the past with the vast majority of people buying cars outright, they tended to keep them for a longer period and with less refined components, they would last as long.
Now when people have a fixed term agreement such as 24k miles over 3 years most of these components will last the initial ownership period and as such aren’t given as much consideration in daily driving.
Now when people have a fixed term agreement such as 24k miles over 3 years most of these components will last the initial ownership period and as such aren’t given as much consideration in daily driving.
Mechanical sympathy is about smooth control inputs, letting the vehicle warm up and not riding the clutch.
Component longevity is about how and where you use the vehicle: Drive mainly on the motorway and brakes, clutches and suspension will last forever. Drive mainly in urban traffic and they won't.
Component longevity is about how and where you use the vehicle: Drive mainly on the motorway and brakes, clutches and suspension will last forever. Drive mainly in urban traffic and they won't.
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