RE: BMW exposes X3 and X4 M to the world
Discussion
soupdragon1 said:
This is wrong. Its what people 'think' these cars will be like - but until you drive one, you'll always think that. Then you'll know you are wrong once you get behind the wheel and try it for yourself. The engineering is pretty amazing.....
You keep making the wrong assumption.Daaaveee said:
Why do people care so much about what others drive?!
Because this is Pistonheads. No 'incorrect' badging
No slightly different numberplates
No bad parking
No black wheels
No German cars unless they are 20plus year old classic M cars or AMGs before Mercedes bought them out.
No Japanese tat
No diesels
Etc. etc.
You will be assimilated and you must conform! Freedom of choice is not allowed and if you dare deviate from the norm you will be ridiculed by every true Ph'er because their taste is better than yours!
Ares said:
It's not the joke I'm chuckling at. 
If an X3 makes you feel like you're as high as a bus you're argumentative or an idiot.
Sheer weight...usually less than 10% more than the estate, and feeling nice in corners is different from driving at 10/10ths, clipping the apex in your pursuit for a lap record. Feeling nice in corners is often due to comfort, and often enhanced by the weight.
If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work.
But if you only try and nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses, and shut yourself off from the benefits, your attitude is the bugger issue in liking a car outside of your comfort zone.
Gaping hole in logic is not "nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses". At this point I could ask how you arrived at the 10% difference (i.e. what cars did you compare?) I could point out that 10 or 15% doesn't sound too much, until you realize it's 10-15% of 2 tonnes. I could easily get to work on the "weight enhances comfort" malarky.If an X3 makes you feel like you're as high as a bus you're argumentative or an idiot.
Sheer weight...usually less than 10% more than the estate, and feeling nice in corners is different from driving at 10/10ths, clipping the apex in your pursuit for a lap record. Feeling nice in corners is often due to comfort, and often enhanced by the weight.
If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work.
But if you only try and nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses, and shut yourself off from the benefits, your attitude is the bugger issue in liking a car outside of your comfort zone.
But I'm not gonna do that. Every SUV discussion looks the same. From time to time I bite hoping someone will be able to convince me, or at least offer a decent argument, but every time SUV owners/fans use the same arguments and fail to convince me SUVs are better than estates.
And this is because the SUV crowd tries to justify an illogical decision with logical argument. Or pick the specific circumstances where offroader/suv will be the better choice.
Funny thing is, the best argument you could use would be one not based on logic - just say "Because I want one". Just don't make mental gymnastics convincing yourself and (failing to convince) others that it is a logical choice.
As a parting shot though - "If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work." - what's the point of X3M/X4M then? Aren't M cars supposed to be for driving fun?
Bladedancer said:
As a parting shot though - "If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work." - what's the point of X3M/X4M then? Aren't M cars supposed to be for driving fun?
I've put the important bit in bold there. You can have something fun AND an SUV, but likely not as fun as an outright sports car (but a lot more practical).corcoran said:
Hoofy said:
Excellent.With all the potholes round SW London, I sometimes feel like I'm doing the Paris-Dakar just to get to Tesco.
E65Ross said:
Bladedancer said:
As a parting shot though - "If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work." - what's the point of X3M/X4M then? Aren't M cars supposed to be for driving fun?
I've put the important bit in bold there. You can have something fun AND an SUV, but likely not as fun as an outright sports car (but a lot more practical).Subaru kinda has that market dominated at the moment with the likes of the cooking Forester but I'm sure with the right pricing and marketing X3M would compete well. The main thing would be getting it off the 20" alloys and whang something else that can handle a bit more abuse with some sensible tyres that do well in mud or loose surfaces. I think what puts a lot of people off these vehicles is the factory wheel and tyre setup does not hint at any potential for use in anything other than a urban street/fast road context which becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, most owners aren't going to consider changing the wheels and going green-laning any time soon.
Bladedancer said:
soupdragon1 said:
This is wrong. Its what people 'think' these cars will be like - but until you drive one, you'll always think that. Then you'll know you are wrong once you get behind the wheel and try it for yourself. The engineering is pretty amazing.....
You keep making the wrong assumption.Bladedancer said:
Ares said:
It's not the joke I'm chuckling at.
If an X3 makes you feel like you're as high as a bus you're argumentative or an idiot.
Sheer weight...usually less than 10% more than the estate, and feeling nice in corners is different from driving at 10/10ths, clipping the apex in your pursuit for a lap record. Feeling nice in corners is often due to comfort, and often enhanced by the weight.
If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work.
But if you only try and nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses, and shut yourself off from the benefits, your attitude is the bugger issue in liking a car outside of your comfort zone.
Gaping hole in logic is not "nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses". At this point I could ask how you arrived at the 10% difference (i.e. what cars did you compare?) I could point out that 10 or 15% doesn't sound too much, until you realize it's 10-15% of 2 tonnes. I could easily get to work on the "weight enhances comfort" malarky.If an X3 makes you feel like you're as high as a bus you're argumentative or an idiot.
Sheer weight...usually less than 10% more than the estate, and feeling nice in corners is different from driving at 10/10ths, clipping the apex in your pursuit for a lap record. Feeling nice in corners is often due to comfort, and often enhanced by the weight.
If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work.
But if you only try and nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses, and shut yourself off from the benefits, your attitude is the bugger issue in liking a car outside of your comfort zone.
But I'm not gonna do that. Every SUV discussion looks the same. From time to time I bite hoping someone will be able to convince me, or at least offer a decent argument, but every time SUV owners/fans use the same arguments and fail to convince me SUVs are better than estates.
And this is because the SUV crowd tries to justify an illogical decision with logical argument. Or pick the specific circumstances where offroader/suv will be the better choice.
Funny thing is, the best argument you could use would be one not based on logic - just say "Because I want one". Just don't make mental gymnastics convincing yourself and (failing to convince) others that it is a logical choice.
As a parting shot though - "If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work." - what's the point of X3M/X4M then? Aren't M cars supposed to be for driving fun?
10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers. Or the difference between a 3 and a 5. No-one complains about the 'sheer weight' of a 5-series. We're not talking about the titanic here. 'Sheer weight'
For me, an SUV would be a league ahead of an estate car, without question the logical choice for me. For you not isn't. Difference is, I don't just list everything the estate car is poorer at, then decry anyone for justifying an estate as in anyway logical.
Parting shot....an M car is the spicier version of that range. The X3M/X4M will hit that mark square on.
Different people like different things, that we can all agree on. So therefore some people will like these SUVs. Are they wrong to like them, no. Should we stop people from buying them, no of course not. Choice is a wonderful thing. If you dont like 1 type of car then dont buy it, buy another type. Easy really.
Ares said:
It is when you only ignore the logic of the SUV, and only look at the 'logic' of not doing so.
10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers.
I was really impressed that the stelvio only weighs around 1500kg in fairness. The current X3 30d weighs 1895kg which seems about the norm for this sized SUV. My Merc GLC350d is 1890kg too. 10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers.
Alfa have worked wonders with their SUV for sure. ETA. Just had a quick look and they're around 1650kg which is still mighty impressive.
Edited by cerb4.5lee on Tuesday 18th September 18:55
cerb4.5lee said:
Ares said:
It is when you only ignore the logic of the SUV, and only look at the 'logic' of not doing so.
10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers.
I was really impressed that the stelvio only weighs around 1500kg in fairness. The current X3 30d weighs 1895kg which seems about the norm for this sized SUV. My Merc GLC350d is 1890kg too. 10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers.
Alfa have worked wonders with their SUV for sure. ETA. Just had a quick look and they're around 1650kg which is still mighty impressive.
Edited by cerb4.5lee on Tuesday 18th September 18:55
"Alfa's "Q4" all wheel drive system, which is normally rear drive but sends up to 50% of power to the front in low-grip conditions, is standard on all trim levels, except an entry level turbo petrol version. The Stelvio weighs 1,660 kg (3,660 lb) with fluids, 145 kg (320 lb) less than an equivalent BMW X3 and 185 kg (408 lb) less than a 4-cyl Porsche Macan.[11]"
So its lighter, but not half a tonne lighter.
J4CKO said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Ares said:
It is when you only ignore the logic of the SUV, and only look at the 'logic' of not doing so.
10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers.
I was really impressed that the stelvio only weighs around 1500kg in fairness. The current X3 30d weighs 1895kg which seems about the norm for this sized SUV. My Merc GLC350d is 1890kg too. 10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers.
Alfa have worked wonders with their SUV for sure. ETA. Just had a quick look and they're around 1650kg which is still mighty impressive.
Edited by cerb4.5lee on Tuesday 18th September 18:55
"Alfa's "Q4" all wheel drive system, which is normally rear drive but sends up to 50% of power to the front in low-grip conditions, is standard on all trim levels, except an entry level turbo petrol version. The Stelvio weighs 1,660 kg (3,660 lb) with fluids, 145 kg (320 lb) less than an equivalent BMW X3 and 185 kg (408 lb) less than a 4-cyl Porsche Macan.[11]"
So its lighter, but not half a tonne lighter.
soupdragon1 said:
Bladedancer said:
soupdragon1 said:
This is wrong. Its what people 'think' these cars will be like - but until you drive one, you'll always think that. Then you'll know you are wrong once you get behind the wheel and try it for yourself. The engineering is pretty amazing.....
You keep making the wrong assumption.Ares said:
Bladedancer said:
Ares said:
It's not the joke I'm chuckling at.
If an X3 makes you feel like you're as high as a bus you're argumentative or an idiot.
Sheer weight...usually less than 10% more than the estate, and feeling nice in corners is different from driving at 10/10ths, clipping the apex in your pursuit for a lap record. Feeling nice in corners is often due to comfort, and often enhanced by the weight.
If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work.
But if you only try and nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses, and shut yourself off from the benefits, your attitude is the bugger issue in liking a car outside of your comfort zone.
Gaping hole in logic is not "nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses". At this point I could ask how you arrived at the 10% difference (i.e. what cars did you compare?) I could point out that 10 or 15% doesn't sound too much, until you realize it's 10-15% of 2 tonnes. I could easily get to work on the "weight enhances comfort" malarky.If an X3 makes you feel like you're as high as a bus you're argumentative or an idiot.
Sheer weight...usually less than 10% more than the estate, and feeling nice in corners is different from driving at 10/10ths, clipping the apex in your pursuit for a lap record. Feeling nice in corners is often due to comfort, and often enhanced by the weight.
If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work.
But if you only try and nit-pick on the SUVs theoretic weaknesses, and shut yourself off from the benefits, your attitude is the bugger issue in liking a car outside of your comfort zone.
But I'm not gonna do that. Every SUV discussion looks the same. From time to time I bite hoping someone will be able to convince me, or at least offer a decent argument, but every time SUV owners/fans use the same arguments and fail to convince me SUVs are better than estates.
And this is because the SUV crowd tries to justify an illogical decision with logical argument. Or pick the specific circumstances where offroader/suv will be the better choice.
Funny thing is, the best argument you could use would be one not based on logic - just say "Because I want one". Just don't make mental gymnastics convincing yourself and (failing to convince) others that it is a logical choice.
As a parting shot though - "If you are only buying a car for driving fun, an SUV is never going to work." - what's the point of X3M/X4M then? Aren't M cars supposed to be for driving fun?
10%....comparing car weights X3 to 3-series etc. And it's of c1500kg, not 2-tonnes, so 150kg, or a couple off passengers. Or the difference between a 3 and a 5. No-one complains about the 'sheer weight' of a 5-series. We're not talking about the titanic here. 'Sheer weight'
For me, an SUV would be a league ahead of an estate car, without question the logical choice for me. For you not isn't. Difference is, I don't just list everything the estate car is poorer at, then decry anyone for justifying an estate as in anyway logical.
Parting shot....an M car is the spicier version of that range. The X3M/X4M will hit that mark square on.
Higher driving position doesn't appeal to me, I'm not too broken to get in and out of the car and don't have problem to put the kids in or take them out, plus my older one has no problem climbing into the car on his own (and I do dare say it's slightly easier for him in an estate that it would be in a SUV), 7 seats aren't that common SUVs, so circumstantial argument at best (no BMW SUV to date has them AFAIK), chunky tyres were good once, but sadly these days SUVs have ridiculously large wheels and thin tyres.
The 2 tonne thing - fair enough, I was thinking M5 vs X5M, because most recent M estate was an M5. It's trickier with a beemer because there are no estate Ms anymore, and E60 M5 estate was something around 1850kg vs same period X5M at what, 2200-ish?
I actually did (and still do) complain (not on here if you were going to look) about sheer weight of the 5 series, especially M5, which is ridiculous 2 tonnes.
I also think that S4/RS4 weighting close to 1.8 tonnes is also silly.
Also, M3 seems to be 1650 kgs while X3M will be 1885kg, so 15% difference. Or in other words - 2+2 family in the car.
Also, M cars used to be a lot more than just spicier versions. Times move on I guess.
Edited by Bladedancer on Wednesday 19th September 09:35
Bladedancer said:
soupdragon1 said:
Bladedancer said:
soupdragon1 said:
This is wrong. Its what people 'think' these cars will be like - but until you drive one, you'll always think that. Then you'll know you are wrong once you get behind the wheel and try it for yourself. The engineering is pretty amazing.....
You keep making the wrong assumption.
But if we're talking sports SAV's in particular (which is what I've been referencing in my posts, considering that in my driveway is a X6 with the sports suspension option added and with torque vectoring) then I will also say you're assumptions still remain as incorrect.
This is what you said:
.......'So while taking a roundabout at 35-ish mph (in a 60 zone) in a normal, well sorted car weighting, oh I don't know, 1.2-1.5 tonnes, is perfectly normal and won't cause any issues, any tire squeel, doing the same in a 2.5 tonne 1.6+ m high behemoth will take it to the limit, and quite possible, beyond it.'......
I can categorically say, your assumption still remains incorrect (IMO of course) When taking such roundabouts, with a suspension that's way too stiff in all honesty, the car has very little lean, the torque vectoring system drives extra torque to the front and rear left wheels to support the cornering, and with 315 width tyres on the rear, it corners with so much ease, its actually quite surreal.
Bladedancer said:
I'm not ignoring anything, as you keep assuming. I'm weighting the logical reasons for and against and the problem is the logic of getting them that doesn't convince me. Logic isn't something you can bargain with, as many of you try.
You are weighing the logical reasons for you, not absolute logic. It's subjective. You therefore cannot say another persons choice is illogical, just because it doesn't conform to your ideas/ideals.Edited by Bladedancer on Wednesday 19th September 09:35
I've had both estate cars and SUVs, although own neither now. For me, the 100% logical choice is an SUV between the two.
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