RE: Toyota Supra prototype: Driven
Discussion
Mr_Sukebe said:
1500kg. LOL.
How does it make sense for a "sports car" to weigh as much as my estate car?
What new "sports cars" don't weigh 1500kg? I can think of a few, but not many designed to be driven daily. The GT86 is really the only one that would be less expensive than this. This is how much cars weigh now unless they are made of carbon and/or cost £100k+.How does it make sense for a "sports car" to weigh as much as my estate car?
t badge, and the A110 is butt ugly.Paddy78 said:
Mr_Sukebe said:
1500kg. LOL.
How does it make sense for a "sports car" to weigh as much as my estate car?
What new "sports cars" don't weigh 1500kg? I can think of a few, but not many designed to be driven daily. The GT86 is really the only one that would be less expensive than this. This is how much cars weigh now unless they are made of carbon and/or cost £100k+.How does it make sense for a "sports car" to weigh as much as my estate car?
GT86
A110
Evora
SLC
911
Cayman
Mostly either slower or more expensive, though.
Chestrockwell said:
It probably was good back in the day, I don’t doubt that for a second but why are people disappointed in the new model as if the old one was a masterpiece?
I don't think they think it was a masterpiece as such but it was cutting edge at the time, sequential turbos, turbos were light metal matrix composite, it cost £40k in 1993, was known as the lottery winners car, it was truely up there with lots of expensive stuff (it's hard to google old new car prices - does anyone know a good site for this?), be interesting to compare the price to say a 911 Turbo or Aston etc of the same era.The new one is not comparable on that scale (shared platform and not their own engine etc), pitched at the Cayman etc as a competitor per the journalists, probably not going to be 'that' much more expensive than the price from 25 years ago, doesn't make it a bad car, makes it more likely to be a commercial success for Toyota but isn't as cutting edge/high priced as the mkiv was at its introduction that's all I think some are disappointed about?
I like the GT86 and the sound/reports of the Supra, not obsessed with power, trying to give a better feel, less GT more sports car, in a 5-7 years when their used price matches my by then (semi) classic Mkiv I might do a swap!
I think much of the disappointment in on two levels, first being that it doesn't seem to be much like the FT-01 concept that was advertised and second that it seems to be a very different design concept to the MkIV.
I know some guys who went along to the goodwood FoS A90 'launch event' whereby they were able to ask direct questions to the Toyota lead designer.
He mentioned that Toyota had done extensive market research for what typical customers wanted from the MkV - and this was in response to a question about if there was going to be a manual gear-box offering.
And I think its this point about 'market research' that is interesting, because market research is aimed at forecourt sales. Whereby enthusiast sales are a totally different market.
VinWiki youtube channel did a video on this not too long ago.
Dealership forecourt sales for brand new cars attract a very different buyer to driver enthusiast sales which are primarily on the re-sale market after depreciation has taken effect.
So as with many new performance cars they are not aimed at the typical owner who would consider themselves an enthusiast.
New car sales are aimed at corporate profits - simple as that. They build something that will either sell in numbers or create a brand image that will aid other model sales.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the final product looks like and how it sells.
But I think Toyota have already restricted their market by not offering a manual - so my prediction is that sales volumes will be quite low indeed.
Which will then likely restrict production numbers over the following years, and that will likely lead to a bit of a flop for the A90. Hope I'm wrong though, as it would be a shame to see the Supra name die like that.
I wonder though, what the result would have been if these large manufacturers were to do their market research on what the enthusiast wanted instead of the typical new car customer?
(I know Porsche did this to an extent with the 911R, would like to see others doing it)
I know some guys who went along to the goodwood FoS A90 'launch event' whereby they were able to ask direct questions to the Toyota lead designer.
He mentioned that Toyota had done extensive market research for what typical customers wanted from the MkV - and this was in response to a question about if there was going to be a manual gear-box offering.
And I think its this point about 'market research' that is interesting, because market research is aimed at forecourt sales. Whereby enthusiast sales are a totally different market.
VinWiki youtube channel did a video on this not too long ago.
Dealership forecourt sales for brand new cars attract a very different buyer to driver enthusiast sales which are primarily on the re-sale market after depreciation has taken effect.
So as with many new performance cars they are not aimed at the typical owner who would consider themselves an enthusiast.
New car sales are aimed at corporate profits - simple as that. They build something that will either sell in numbers or create a brand image that will aid other model sales.
I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the final product looks like and how it sells.
But I think Toyota have already restricted their market by not offering a manual - so my prediction is that sales volumes will be quite low indeed.
Which will then likely restrict production numbers over the following years, and that will likely lead to a bit of a flop for the A90. Hope I'm wrong though, as it would be a shame to see the Supra name die like that.
I wonder though, what the result would have been if these large manufacturers were to do their market research on what the enthusiast wanted instead of the typical new car customer?
(I know Porsche did this to an extent with the 911R, would like to see others doing it)
Edited by Atomic12C on Thursday 20th September 13:14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OXNHTpkUdA
Autocar's review. At least Toyota have sorted the chassis and it was the guy who sorted the GT86. Also seems to be a Toyota/Lexus gearbox.
This is based similarly to the GT86 and people forget what that is about its about fun and just enough power not to get yourself into to much trouble. This will be similar and that engine is actually a peach with a big powerband and looks wise it definitely has a japan look about it.
I'm a big Toyota fan but will say that the original supra was not actually that sporty it was more a cruiser good on the straights and good grip but on the corners wasn't that balanced or track ready this on the other hand looks to be epic for both track and road.
Looks like Toyota have done it again and are back in the game along with the GRMN Yaris and other Gazoo stuff to come and what they have going on with sportying up the Lexus brand.
Autocar's review. At least Toyota have sorted the chassis and it was the guy who sorted the GT86. Also seems to be a Toyota/Lexus gearbox.
This is based similarly to the GT86 and people forget what that is about its about fun and just enough power not to get yourself into to much trouble. This will be similar and that engine is actually a peach with a big powerband and looks wise it definitely has a japan look about it.
I'm a big Toyota fan but will say that the original supra was not actually that sporty it was more a cruiser good on the straights and good grip but on the corners wasn't that balanced or track ready this on the other hand looks to be epic for both track and road.
Looks like Toyota have done it again and are back in the game along with the GRMN Yaris and other Gazoo stuff to come and what they have going on with sportying up the Lexus brand.
Edited by dufunk on Thursday 20th September 13:27
Mr_Sukebe said:
1500kg. LOL.
How does it make sense for a "sports car" to weigh as much as my estate car?
You ought to ask the industry as a whole rather than Toyota, the number of quick cars that duck under 1500kg is pretty low.How does it make sense for a "sports car" to weigh as much as my estate car?
And 1500kg is good for an estate - I assume it doesn't have a large engine and other beefy components required for going quickly, reliably.
otolith said:
Bankruptcy.
Yeah likely 
But it didn't do Porsche any harm by reintroducing a manual only 911R, which is what the enthusiasts were crying out for.
Although having said that, we're in strange times with the performance car market - the asset bubble created by the 2008 financial crisis has been creating abnormal sales with many snapping up limited models to flip and people buying garage queens to collect in hope they become investments etc.
Atomic12C said:
But I think Toyota have already restricted their market by not offering a manual - so my prediction is that sales volumes will be quite low indeed.
I think not having a manual with have almost zero effect. If you look at competitors for this type of car in the market who offer both manual and an automatic option, be it DCT/DSG/ZF then nearly all of the sales are auto. Of the few that choose manual as preference, some of these would take auto if this was the only option. I'd be surprised if not having a manual even cost them 5% of sales.The Supra has far many other challenges to sell at this price point than gearbox.
Paddy78 said:
What new "sports cars" don't weigh 1500kg? I can think of a few, but not many designed to be driven daily. The GT86 is really the only one that would be less expensive than this. This is how much cars weigh now unless they are made of carbon and/or cost £100k+.
Porsche's being the exception (and the A110), but a 718 S with 350bhp starts above £50k and will option up far higher. otolith said:
Atomic12C said:
I wonder though, what the result would have been if these large manufacturers were to do their market research on what the enthusiast wanted instead of the typical new car customer?
Bankruptcy.seefarr said:
The 2JZ was a legendary engine for tuning, but don't discount BMW straight 6 turbo units. They rev higher, make more power, are more responsive and use less fuel. Win!
And go wrong much more - lose!No argument that the BMW 6 does the numbers but for me one of the main reason I'd buy Japanese is the inherent reliability and in the real world that is worth a lot. Good example is the ISF - most press says it's not quite as good as a contemporary M3 or C63 to drive but honestly what would you buy secondhand and 5 years old?
It’s becoming a crowded space but that is a good thing. I see no problem with people having choice.
As far as price goes, it’s clear that £50k is the new £30k. When I first saw the Alfa 4c I was surprised at the price but that is where everyone is these days.
My only observation is that this will always be on the heavier side as it is starting with a roadster platform - perhaps they could offer a targa to make use of the platform?
Be interesting to see the final design.
As far as price goes, it’s clear that £50k is the new £30k. When I first saw the Alfa 4c I was surprised at the price but that is where everyone is these days.
My only observation is that this will always be on the heavier side as it is starting with a roadster platform - perhaps they could offer a targa to make use of the platform?
Be interesting to see the final design.
JMF894 said:
Looks nice and compact. Agree I hope it is more Toyota than BMW (I own 2 BMWs).
Given its hardware and architecture i'd say 1500kgs isn't disasterous.
It isn't, except small saloon cars are a similar cost and come with 150bhp more. What place is a sports car supposed to occupy?Given its hardware and architecture i'd say 1500kgs isn't disasterous.
Looking good. Toyota will have a new hit on their hands, same as the GT86 that saved the tuning industry in Japan.
Historically the Supra MKIV have never competed with the GTR when the GTR (32, 33, 34) was only available in Japan before the R35. Just look at any Mid Night club or any Yatabe test runs pictures. The GTR have always been the preferred choise or the 911. The Supra have always been a US drag race favorite.
Concerns about the engine are nothing to worry about. Just look what the N55 could handle. The B58 will get loads of power once Top Secret, Amuse, Saurus or Phoenix Power gets their hands on it in Japan or SP Engineering or Titan in the US. Plus BMW tuners like Dinan or Studie AG.
The new Supra with the same enhancements as below with Toyota quality:
http://www.speedhunters.com/2018/05/the-little-mag...
Historically the Supra MKIV have never competed with the GTR when the GTR (32, 33, 34) was only available in Japan before the R35. Just look at any Mid Night club or any Yatabe test runs pictures. The GTR have always been the preferred choise or the 911. The Supra have always been a US drag race favorite.
Concerns about the engine are nothing to worry about. Just look what the N55 could handle. The B58 will get loads of power once Top Secret, Amuse, Saurus or Phoenix Power gets their hands on it in Japan or SP Engineering or Titan in the US. Plus BMW tuners like Dinan or Studie AG.
The new Supra with the same enhancements as below with Toyota quality:
http://www.speedhunters.com/2018/05/the-little-mag...
Edited by KJH on Thursday 20th September 14:13
The Mkiv supra was a GT car. It could fit adults in the back at a push and certainly 3 adults no problem and kids easily, like the R34, R33,R32, 3000GTO and 300ZX.
Somewhere along the line their replacements have offered pathetic tokenistic seats that you can just about chuck a bag in. This has allegedly a shorter wheelbase than the GT86!
If the market wants sub 1500kg ‘sports’ cars, to me the mkiv was a sports car but it seems in the days of pigeon holeing everything it is considered a heavyweight GT car, whatever, it was a high performance car that would embarass contemporary supercars and do it with added practicality.
The 350z was a lame successor to the 300ZX, losing 2 turbos and 2 seats in the process, the GTR thankfully kept the 2+2 layout but sacrificed pretty much all the legroom and headroom. This looks to have gone the same way but it has retained the GTR spirit and character.
This isn’t the same genre car that the outgoing Supra was. It’s not particularly high performance though I accept the aftermarket will change that but personally I wouldn’t bother. For me it falls into the media type/hairdresser lightweight ooh ooh 2 seater hair dryer category that the mx-5, elise, Alfa 4c etc do. It’s not a manly GT car, it’s a lightweight. The GT86 is an emasculated sports car, granted it might have wonderful chassis balance and provide sporty feel at low speed, whoopee, I’d rather be trying to tame a beast. The GT2, 575’s, GTR, C63s, M4, these are cars I would expect a revived Supra to have it’s sights set on. They’ve aimed low and provided a car that’s basically a GT86+ with added gusto.
Nissan at least tackled the GTR with a clean sheet brief and they have sold in vast numbers. That is the market the supra should have been tapping into based on the outgoing model. Toyota can do what they like, I won’t be buying one despite being the perfect owner profile for a proper new supra, it doesn’t even interest me from what I have seen so far, we have two toyotas on the drive currently and neither have equivalent replacements available to the outgoing models. Toyota can go green as they like and keep on producing Priii. They no longer produce cars that interest me, a pity as my local dealer is outstanding and have looked after us for years. Mercedes are now the prospective replacements for this void providing cars that meet the enthusiasts brief and we have two of these already in the stable, shame the dealers and network are not a patch!
Somewhere along the line their replacements have offered pathetic tokenistic seats that you can just about chuck a bag in. This has allegedly a shorter wheelbase than the GT86!
If the market wants sub 1500kg ‘sports’ cars, to me the mkiv was a sports car but it seems in the days of pigeon holeing everything it is considered a heavyweight GT car, whatever, it was a high performance car that would embarass contemporary supercars and do it with added practicality.
The 350z was a lame successor to the 300ZX, losing 2 turbos and 2 seats in the process, the GTR thankfully kept the 2+2 layout but sacrificed pretty much all the legroom and headroom. This looks to have gone the same way but it has retained the GTR spirit and character.
This isn’t the same genre car that the outgoing Supra was. It’s not particularly high performance though I accept the aftermarket will change that but personally I wouldn’t bother. For me it falls into the media type/hairdresser lightweight ooh ooh 2 seater hair dryer category that the mx-5, elise, Alfa 4c etc do. It’s not a manly GT car, it’s a lightweight. The GT86 is an emasculated sports car, granted it might have wonderful chassis balance and provide sporty feel at low speed, whoopee, I’d rather be trying to tame a beast. The GT2, 575’s, GTR, C63s, M4, these are cars I would expect a revived Supra to have it’s sights set on. They’ve aimed low and provided a car that’s basically a GT86+ with added gusto.
Nissan at least tackled the GTR with a clean sheet brief and they have sold in vast numbers. That is the market the supra should have been tapping into based on the outgoing model. Toyota can do what they like, I won’t be buying one despite being the perfect owner profile for a proper new supra, it doesn’t even interest me from what I have seen so far, we have two toyotas on the drive currently and neither have equivalent replacements available to the outgoing models. Toyota can go green as they like and keep on producing Priii. They no longer produce cars that interest me, a pity as my local dealer is outstanding and have looked after us for years. Mercedes are now the prospective replacements for this void providing cars that meet the enthusiasts brief and we have two of these already in the stable, shame the dealers and network are not a patch!
Been waiting for the replacement since I sold my MK IV back in 2004.
Been daily driving for 9 years in an R35 GTR now and came up against a m140 at the lights. So decided to pull away slowly up to about 10 mph to give it a chance then floor it. I am still amazed that the damn thing was only half a car length behind me well into 3rd gear.
The torque to weight of the new Supra is actually slightly better than the GTR and max torque is much lower than 3500RPM so this engine now has my respect.
I’ve owned 3 toyotas and an SC lexus for 9 years and they are utterly reliable which is more than you can say for the wife’s 4 year old merc E350.
I am seriously considering going for it...
Been daily driving for 9 years in an R35 GTR now and came up against a m140 at the lights. So decided to pull away slowly up to about 10 mph to give it a chance then floor it. I am still amazed that the damn thing was only half a car length behind me well into 3rd gear.
The torque to weight of the new Supra is actually slightly better than the GTR and max torque is much lower than 3500RPM so this engine now has my respect.
I’ve owned 3 toyotas and an SC lexus for 9 years and they are utterly reliable which is more than you can say for the wife’s 4 year old merc E350.
I am seriously considering going for it...
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