Smart motorway penalty

[Metallfan]

Hi all,

I was driving on M25, smart motorway just before Dartford tunnel crossing. The two right lanes showed as closed for most of the approach, but the last 'smart signals' before the tunnel showed a speed limit instead of the red X, which made it look as though the lines have just opened. As I switched lanes the speed limits turned to red X again, but I did not have enough time to react anymore as within 2 seconds of them changing I had hard shoulder on my left. I stopped before the tunnel and had to get rescued by the traffic officers. I have a dashcam recording showing that there was no red X as I switched lanes and that the signal changed once it wasn't safe for me anymore to change the lanes. Do I have a case to challenge the fine?

I've posted this question partially because I want to make sure that my understanding of how these motorwaysork is correct. If there is a speed limit displayed oner a lane, that surely means that the lane is open, or would there be any scenario where there is a speed limit displayed over a closed lane? And how much time for a reaction should I get once the signals change? If the signals before showed lane closures and I only switched lanes at the signals which showed speed limit instead of a big red X was I in the right to do so? To be fair a car before me did exactly the same thing and we both got stuck but I don't think he had a dashcam.
I did not get a fine yet, but the traffic officer who rescued me (and was very unprofessional while at it, but that's a separate issue) said I will be getting points so I assume the ticket will be on its way to me by now.
Also, any idea what fine/points can I expect? I read that of you take a pendlty like that to a court and they don't rule in your favour you can end up paying more than the initial fine?

[Dr Interceptor]

If the dashcam footage shows exactly what you describe, you have a pretty good case for getting any fine/points overturned.

Make sure that footage is stored and backed up.

[IanCress]

I can't quite understand from your description what happened to prevent you from pulling left. Were the lanes coned off? Either way, if you've followed the directions given by the overhead gantry then I don't think you've done anything wrong.

However, if you admit that you did see the red X and the dashcam footage shows that you did have time to react but chose not to, it will not go in your favour.

[Metallfan]

Thank you, I've already done that.

[Metallfan]

IanCress said:

I can't quite understand from your description what happened to prevent you from pulling left. Were the lanes coned off? Either way, if you've followed the directions given by the overhead gantry then I don't think you've done anything wrong.

However, if you admit that you did see the red X and the dashcam footage shows that you did have time to react but chose not to, it will not go in your favour.

Hi Ian,

When the signal turned to red X within the next 2-3 seconds I already had a hard shoulder on my left - the 4 lanes became divided into 2 sets of 2 with a hard shoulder in the middle.

[TooMany2cvs]

Upload the footage, or at least some key stills?

MW10 or TS50 offence code, at a guess. Dartford Tunnel isn't actually M25, it's the A282 between the junctions either side.

I presume you were coming up to the point at which it splits into two sets of lanes, one set for each of the actual tunnel bores - and simply couldn't cross back to the other set of lanes?

[Tall_Paul]

IanCress said:

I can't quite understand from your description what happened to prevent you from pulling left. Were the lanes coned off? Either way, if you've followed the directions given by the overhead gantry then I don't think you've done anything wrong.

However, if you admit that you did see the red X and the dashcam footage shows that you did have time to react but chose not to, it will not go in your favour.

The 4 lanes going into the Dartford tunnel split into 2 lanes per tunnel, so the 2 outside lanes then have a barrier to the left.

[essayer]

Preemptively, I would ask Highways England to provide you details of lane closures/speed limits on that stretch for the period in question.

You can submit a FOI request on whatdotheyknow.com

e: ask them to provide a detailed breakdown of the individual states for each sign

Also don’t forget the dart charge

Edited by essayer on Wednesday 19th September 10:57

[Metallfan]

this shows the approach with the right lanes closed and shows that I was in the right lane

[Metallfan]

this is my approach showing all 4 lanes open (I appreciate its not great quality but you can see the signs are NOT red X's

[Metallfan]

and this is the exact point when the signals turned red again, as you can see, I'm just about to enter hard-shoulder territory

[Metallfan]

if ive done something wrong I'm happy to be educated, I'm not here for confirmation bias, but I'm pretty sure I was following the right code and didn't have sufficient time to react without slamming on my breaks or steering right into the traffic to my left. Any thoughts?

[Dr Interceptor]

Metallfan said:

and this is the exact point when the signals turned red again, as you can see, I'm just about to enter hard-shoulder territory

What did the car in front do at this point?

[Metallfan]

Dr Interceptor said:

What did the car in front do at this point?

Followed through. we both got stuck there.

[T5R+]

Education on these new systems is abysmal.

Have been driving on these types of roads what feels like decades. Always use a simple approach

1. if lane shows a "red x" then not to be in it
2. if a lane shows a posted limit, then okay to be in it and at that limit
3. if a lane has a blank board/matrix but adjacent shows a posted limit, then do not exceed the adjacent posted limit

By the way, I am that saddo in the nearside/hard shoulder lane when it is a live lane.

OP, as you describe it, think it would be wrong for you to get ticketed/points/fined........the dashcam may be your saviour here. Sure that there is a grace period between signs changing and enforcement.......your challenge here could be that it was "X" for a long period, then a live lane for a very short stint (when you "rightly" occupied) and then reverted to "X" again but the preset timings work against you?

[Metallfan]

T5R+ said:

Education on these new systems is abysmal.

Have been driving on these types of roads what feels like decades. Always use a simple approach

1. if lane shows a "red x" then not to be in it
2. if a lane shows a posted limit, then okay to be in it and at that limit
3. if a lane has a blank board/matrix but adjacent shows a posted limit, then do not exceed the adjacent posted limit

By the way, I am that saddo in the nearside/hard shoulder lane when it is a live lane.

OP, as you describe it, think it would be wrong for you to get ticketed/points/fined........the dashcam may be your saviour here. Sure that there is a grace period between signs changing and enforcement.......your challenge here could be that it was "X" for a long period, then a live lane for a very short stint (when you "rightly" occupied) and then reverted to "X" again but the preset timings work against you?

This is my thoughts exactly, but when I looked up how much a legal representation would be if I were to challenge this in court, I may be better off just taking it on the chin. What fine/points do you think I'd be looking at here, would they class it as 'dangerous driving'?

Also, could you please explain what do you mean by 'but the preset timings work against you'?

I've already lost night's sleep over it

Thanks

[coldel]

I think you have a case, and surely there is no cost to writing to the agency and stating exactly what happened stating you have video capture footage which you can share. So to be clear, you passed under the gantry showing a speed limit and you didnt see it change, or did it change as you passed under it? Does your cam footage show you passing completely under the gantry with it still as a speed limit?

[TooMany2cvs]

Metallfan said:

Metallfan said:

Metallfan said:

Can you show the full frame for these three, showing the timestamps?

Looks very much as if the limit was a very temporary blip, and the two of you thought "woo-hoo", went for it, only to be caught out as it changed back within a second or three.

That last frame, given that you've only just changed from L2 to L3, you could easily have braked and dipped back left. What limit was showing? It's a 50, even before any reduction, isn't it?

[coldel]

TooMany2cvs said:

Can you show the full frame for these three, showing the timestamps?

Looks very much as if the limit was a very temporary blip, and the two of you thought "woo-hoo", went for it, only to be caught out as it changed back within a second or three.

That last frame, given that you've only just changed from L2 to L3, you could easily have braked and dipped back left. What limit was showing? It's a 50, even before any reduction, isn't it?

I think the second image is key, did that revert to a red X well before you passed under it or did it remain as a speed limit constantly?

[Metallfan]

coldel said:

I think you have a case, and surely there is no cost to writing to the agency and stating exactly what happened stating you have video capture footage which you can share. So to be clear, you passed under the gantry showing a speed limit and you didnt see it change, or did it change as you passed under it? Does your cam footage show you passing completely under the gantry with it still as a speed limit?

Thanks for this!
Which agency would be the right point of contact for this? Traffick Officers fall under police I think? Or would this be England Highways? Or another agency I'm not aware of?
The last capture is exact point when the lights changed, so I was already in that lane. Also, as someone above pointed out - there MUST be some sort of grace period for when the lane closes, right?