Smart motorway penalty
Discussion
Yes, you could have braked and got back left - however that's not the safest manoeuvre in the world, and requires time to indicate, check mirror/blind spot etc before starting to move left.
Your footage shows an error in the gantry signalling, which caused doubt and confusion, there's no way I'd let a penalty stand.
Your footage shows an error in the gantry signalling, which caused doubt and confusion, there's no way I'd let a penalty stand.
The grace period is a bit of a myth, some say its true, some not, some say you get two signs grace some say 2 seconds.
If you saw that sign changed to a X whilst it was what it looks like, around 30-40 metres down the road and in full view, how comes you changed into that lane anyway? Or at least not attempt to stay left? Just playing devils advocate as I would imagine anyone you complain to would ask the same thing? Please do correct me if I misunderstood!
If you saw that sign changed to a X whilst it was what it looks like, around 30-40 metres down the road and in full view, how comes you changed into that lane anyway? Or at least not attempt to stay left? Just playing devils advocate as I would imagine anyone you complain to would ask the same thing? Please do correct me if I misunderstood!
TooMany2cvs said:
Can you show the full frame for these three, showing the timestamps?
Looks very much as if the limit was a very temporary blip, and the two of you thought "woo-hoo", went for it, only to be caught out as it changed back within a second or three.
That last frame, given that you've only just changed from L2 to L3, you could easily have braked and dipped back left. What limit was showing? It's a 50, even before any reduction, isn't it?
Just to clarify, the first image is from a different signal point, I just included it to show what this looks like, the signal point in question though, I have never seen go from red to speed limit, it was showing just the speed limit from when I saw it, so must have been a blip of more than a few seconds. Looks very much as if the limit was a very temporary blip, and the two of you thought "woo-hoo", went for it, only to be caught out as it changed back within a second or three.
That last frame, given that you've only just changed from L2 to L3, you could easily have braked and dipped back left. What limit was showing? It's a 50, even before any reduction, isn't it?
This is time stamp from when I first saw the signals, and as small as it is on this image, you can see its not a red X it's a speed limit (40)
TooMany2cvs said:
Can you show the full frame for these three, showing the timestamps?
Looks very much as if the limit was a very temporary blip, and the two of you thought "woo-hoo", went for it, only to be caught out as it changed back within a second or three.
That last frame, given that you've only just changed from L2 to L3, you could easily have braked and dipped back left. What limit was showing? It's a 50, even before any reduction, isn't it?
I take it you've never driven near or around London, the second you move over the car behind would be on the gas or the car in lane one would be changing lanes so changing back without looking or a quick glance is very likely to lead to spinning cars.Looks very much as if the limit was a very temporary blip, and the two of you thought "woo-hoo", went for it, only to be caught out as it changed back within a second or three.
That last frame, given that you've only just changed from L2 to L3, you could easily have braked and dipped back left. What limit was showing? It's a 50, even before any reduction, isn't it?
Looking at that footage I think their system is at fault not you, you did nothing wrong, lanes reopen and you cross a broken white line
wack said:
I take it you've never driven near or around London
Well, apart from having commuted daily round the south circular for my student years, then living/work umpteen other places around the M25 culminating in living a mile off a junction for 15 years before I escaped to civilisation...coldel said:
The grace period is a bit of a myth, some say its true, some not, some say you get two signs grace some say 2 seconds.
If you saw that sign changed to a X whilst it was what it looks like, around 30-40 metres down the road and in full view, how comes you changed into that lane anyway? Or at least not attempt to stay left? Just playing devils advocate as I would imagine anyone you complain to would ask the same thing? Please do correct me if I misunderstood!
It's a fair question - when the lights changed I was already in that lane, the manoeuvre was completed. Also, the Gantry is bit further up than the last 'point of return' would have been, the distance from the signs is not representative of where the decision had to be made. If you saw that sign changed to a X whilst it was what it looks like, around 30-40 metres down the road and in full view, how comes you changed into that lane anyway? Or at least not attempt to stay left? Just playing devils advocate as I would imagine anyone you complain to would ask the same thing? Please do correct me if I misunderstood!
Metallfan said:
Also, could you please explain what do you mean by 'but the preset timings work against you'?
Cannot ever definitely remember seeing the duration of grace-period when the sign is illuminated/changes - many think that it is 10seconds.Think about it - if you are virtually at a gantry and it illuminates at say 60 and you travelling at say 80 - do you stamp on the brakes. Think of the consequences and multiple pile ups. Thus, suspect that a grace period surely exists.
In your case - it went from "X" to "Posted Limit" to "X". Suspect that you entered when a live lane (so all good) but "got stuck" when reverted to "X" and so must have been there a lot longer than our mythical 10second grace period. Make sure that you do overwrite the dashcam, Do not just accept the points and fines.
On a sidenote I see a lot of inconsistencies on the managed motorways regularly. Humans in the control rooms can make mistakes leading to errors.
Have nothing to do with the HA - simply another smuck who covers 30K/annum across our motorway networks.
Really obvious that some people have zero idea over managed motorway driving - given the number of posts on PH and poor advice/direction given by some posters.
Looking at the screenshots he'll commit an offence regardless of decision made.
If he continues down the closed lane - offence.
If he moves left onto the open lane - it looks like he's already approaching solid white line and hatchings so shouldn't be crossing them.
If you put the whole video up people might be able to advise better.
You could argue that the sign only applies AFTER you've passed it, the same as with speed limit signs so it's risky, but if I got legal advice and they said I had a chance I'd win, I'd probably go to court. Technically I guess you did drive in a closed lane as it was closed from the last gantry up to the next gantry that had a limit on it.
If he continues down the closed lane - offence.
If he moves left onto the open lane - it looks like he's already approaching solid white line and hatchings so shouldn't be crossing them.
If you put the whole video up people might be able to advise better.
You could argue that the sign only applies AFTER you've passed it, the same as with speed limit signs so it's risky, but if I got legal advice and they said I had a chance I'd win, I'd probably go to court. Technically I guess you did drive in a closed lane as it was closed from the last gantry up to the next gantry that had a limit on it.
Edited by ashleyman on Wednesday 19th September 12:44
T5R+ said:
Cannot ever definitely remember seeing the duration of grace-period when the sign is illuminated/changes - many think that it is 10seconds.
Think about it - if you are virtually at a gantry and it illuminates at say 60 and you travelling at say 80 - do you stamp on the brakes. Think of the consequences and multiple pile ups. Thus, suspect that a grace period surely exists.
In your case - it went from "X" to "Posted Limit" to "X". Suspect that you entered when a live lane (so all good) but "got stuck" when reverted to "X" and so must have been there a lot longer than our mythical 10second grace period. Make sure that you do overwrite the dashcam, Do not just accept the points and fines.
On a sidenote I see a lot of inconsistencies on the managed motorways regularly. Humans in the control rooms can make mistakes leading to errors.
Have nothing to do with the HA - simply another smuck who covers 30K/annum across our motorway networks.
Really obvious that some people have zero idea over managed motorway driving - given the number of posts on PH and poor advice/direction given by some posters.
Just to clarify, this particular signal was never red since I first saw it. It's a previous signal that was red. So it's not like I saw red, than speed limit and just change lanes at that point.Think about it - if you are virtually at a gantry and it illuminates at say 60 and you travelling at say 80 - do you stamp on the brakes. Think of the consequences and multiple pile ups. Thus, suspect that a grace period surely exists.
In your case - it went from "X" to "Posted Limit" to "X". Suspect that you entered when a live lane (so all good) but "got stuck" when reverted to "X" and so must have been there a lot longer than our mythical 10second grace period. Make sure that you do overwrite the dashcam, Do not just accept the points and fines.
On a sidenote I see a lot of inconsistencies on the managed motorways regularly. Humans in the control rooms can make mistakes leading to errors.
Have nothing to do with the HA - simply another smuck who covers 30K/annum across our motorway networks.
Really obvious that some people have zero idea over managed motorway driving - given the number of posts on PH and poor advice/direction given by some posters.
coldel said:
If you saw that sign changed to a X whilst it was what it looks like, around 30-40 metres down the road and in full view, how comes you changed into that lane anyway? Or at least not attempt to stay left? Just playing devils advocate as I would imagine anyone you complain to would ask the same thing? Please do correct me if I misunderstood!
Surely the 'smart' element is that the sign updates according to the latest conditions and the driver obeys the necessary regulations, not that they outsmart the driver who is not looking 2 signs ahead.Metallfan said:
Just to clarify, this particular signal was never red since I first saw it. It's a previous signal that was red. So it's not like I saw red, than speed limit and just change lanes at that point.
I'd originally read it as if you'd seen red->speed limit.I guess they were in the process of closing the lanes then. To avoid what happened to you happening to everybody, they must set it red at the previous gantry first, then once traffic has cleared that section set the next one to red too.
But it's a bit of a broken system though, as you found out. Having the gantry some way down a road with no escape route is only going to go wrong as far as I can see... The gantry needs to be at the last point you can safely change lanes, not after that - then you'd either be past the gantry and it doesn't matter if it changes, or there's time to change lanes and avoid it once it changes red.
I've no idea how you were supposed to know that the lane was in the process of closing rather than it had opened again, especially as so many of those closures/speed limits are for one section only and often for no immediately obvious reason.
Metallfan said:
Just to clarify, this particular signal was never red since I first saw it. It's a previous signal that was red. So it's not like I saw red, than speed limit and just change lanes at that point.
But technically would that have been wrong too? Surely if the sign immediately ahead changes, it's only relevant what it says when you passed it, with a grace period.jfire said:
Metallfan said:
Just to clarify, this particular signal was never red since I first saw it. It's a previous signal that was red. So it's not like I saw red, than speed limit and just change lanes at that point.
But technically would that have been wrong too? Surely if the sign immediately ahead changes, it's only relevant what it says when you passed it, with a grace period.Technically it is a type of race hazard, you cannot turn that sign red on until all of the traffic in that lane between it and the previous gantry has flowed through because the traffic cannot move left as they get close to it. You have to set the previous gantry to red and wait for the intermediate traffic to clear, I suspect the OP was just in that region of time.
Needs an amber left arrow or something to tell you it is about to close and the next set is closed.
Toltec said:
I wondered about that, however since that sign is placed after the road splits it has to be read in advance as you have no option to change lane at it. You need to apply what it says before you reach it if closed so it is not unreasonable to apply it being open before you reach it.
Technically it is a type of race hazard, you cannot turn that sign red on until all of the traffic in that lane between it and the previous gantry has flowed through because the traffic cannot move left as they get close to it. You have to set the previous gantry to red and wait for the intermediate traffic to clear, I suspect the OP was just in that region of time.
Needs an amber left arrow or something to tell you it is about to close and the next set is closed.
Quite a sensible point, that you cannot just switch all to Red Xs there is an expectation that you move over as you see them and stay left. I guess the issue here could be that you do not move back to the right until you pass the gantry? You passed a red X, saw in the distance a speed limit sign so moved over well before passing the gantry. They could argue that you stay out the closed lane until you pass a gantry that says otherwise? Again devils advocate but that could come back against any contesting? Mind you, it might be nothing happens, did the guys that escorted you tell you that you would get a ticket?Technically it is a type of race hazard, you cannot turn that sign red on until all of the traffic in that lane between it and the previous gantry has flowed through because the traffic cannot move left as they get close to it. You have to set the previous gantry to red and wait for the intermediate traffic to clear, I suspect the OP was just in that region of time.
Needs an amber left arrow or something to tell you it is about to close and the next set is closed.
TooMany2cvs said:
Well, apart from having commuted daily round the south circular for my student years, then living/work umpteen other places around the M25 culminating in living a mile off a junction for 15 years before I escaped to civilisation...
So you're fully aware of the f
k you style of driving in and around London then 
coldel said:
Quite a sensible point, that you cannot just switch all to Red Xs there is an expectation that you move over as you see them and stay left. I guess the issue here could be that you do not move back to the right until you pass the gantry? You passed a red X, saw in the distance a speed limit sign so moved over well before passing the gantry. They could argue that you stay out the closed lane until you pass a gantry that says otherwise? Again devils advocate but that could come back against any contesting? Mind you, it might be nothing happens, did the guys that escorted you tell you that you would get a ticket?
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