Turbo Reliability - A ticking timebomb?
Discussion
captain_cynic said:
if anythings modified, then all bets are off.
Generally though if you do modify the car, you should also be doing more periodic maintenance. A tale of two Skylines, both R34 GTST, both modded, both on mostly stock parts. One guy serviced his ever 5000 KM, every knock, rattle or niggle investigated and sorted. The other laughed at this notion up until the point where he was looking for a new RB25, intercooler, turbo and radiator. In the end, it was cheaper to over service and AFAIK, still running.
Your first sentence is ridiculous, as proved by the fact you contradict it in the next paragraph.Generally though if you do modify the car, you should also be doing more periodic maintenance. A tale of two Skylines, both R34 GTST, both modded, both on mostly stock parts. One guy serviced his ever 5000 KM, every knock, rattle or niggle investigated and sorted. The other laughed at this notion up until the point where he was looking for a new RB25, intercooler, turbo and radiator. In the end, it was cheaper to over service and AFAIK, still running.
As is said, just because you modify does not mean you can not have a reliable turbo, correct maintenance and other safeguards can be taken. I would suggest a turbo on a modded vehicle that is well looked after with good quality oil changes is as reliable if not more so than a turbo on a neglected but standard vehicle.
I've had modified turbo cars for over 20 years, and never had a turbo failure.
J4CKO said:
So turbos are now designed to last the same length as the manufacturers warranty ?
Which is generally between three and seven years ?
Surely the cost to their reputation is more valuable than savings from speccing a turbo that fails at three years ?
Is there that much to save in the design ? they have to make a casing, compressor wheel, bearings, wastegate etc etc anyway ?
My experience is primarily testing of compressor wheels but from the discussions with engineers who define the tests and designs of the wheels. Which is generally between three and seven years ?
Surely the cost to their reputation is more valuable than savings from speccing a turbo that fails at three years ?
Is there that much to save in the design ? they have to make a casing, compressor wheel, bearings, wastegate etc etc anyway ?
Typical designs are that most of the units will last longer than warranty, exact details driven by the OEM. A turbocharger manufacturer could make both a cheap unit that lasts 10,000 miles or one that lasts a million miles at much higher cost.
Data on warranty claims would be used to balance cost of unit against cost of predicted warranty claims. Again with lots of other factors mixed in; reputation for reliability affecting sales and so forth...
Bottom line is its all driven by the profit margins for both the OEM and turbo supplier.
Lots of savings available, using compressor wheels as an example. Very generally speaking materials alone can range from common cast aluminium alloys to billet titanium alloys. Assuming the same geometry, one will cost a magnitude more than the other while only offering greater lifespan or higher peak stress capability (speed).
The Surveyor said:
I think you need to explain that in a little more detail. If you are suggesting that the turbo is only designed to last 3 years, I simply don't believe you. If you are suggesting that the turbo along with every other component is designed to only last 3 years (why single out the turbo?) I believe you even less.
Manufacturers sell their cars partially based upon their reputation for building reliable cars, no manufacturer would ever send out a car with such a limited engineered design-life.
Sure I'll try.Manufacturers sell their cars partially based upon their reputation for building reliable cars, no manufacturer would ever send out a car with such a limited engineered design-life.
Turbo purely from my experience, only reason I piped up lol. I have fatigue tested failure rates of compressor wheels, worked in design and also looked at cost reduction of parts for turbocharger manufacturer industry.
A turbo and i think its safe to say all auto components are designed to make as much profit for the car manufactures as possible.
The lifespan of a turbo can be controlled to some extent by the design of the components. The target lifespan is specified by the car manufactures for the most part. This will be based on statistical analysis of failure rates for component within given conditions and cost benefit analysis inc. all the factors like, warranty claims, reputation etc...
Some people still buy unreliable cars (LR's), they typically just have to cost less or have another perceived benefit (image)
Barronmr said:
The Surveyor said:
I think you need to explain that in a little more detail. If you are suggesting that the turbo is only designed to last 3 years, I simply don't believe you. If you are suggesting that the turbo along with every other component is designed to only last 3 years (why single out the turbo?) I believe you even less.
Manufacturers sell their cars partially based upon their reputation for building reliable cars, no manufacturer would ever send out a car with such a limited engineered design-life.
Sure I'll try.Manufacturers sell their cars partially based upon their reputation for building reliable cars, no manufacturer would ever send out a car with such a limited engineered design-life.
Turbo purely from my experience, only reason I piped up lol. I have fatigue tested failure rates of compressor wheels, worked in design and also looked at cost reduction of parts for turbocharger manufacturer industry.
A turbo and i think its safe to say all auto components are designed to make as much profit for the car manufactures as possible.
The lifespan of a turbo can be controlled to some extent by the design of the components. The target lifespan is specified by the car manufactures for the most part. This will be based on statistical analysis of failure rates for component within given conditions and cost benefit analysis inc. all the factors like, warranty claims, reputation etc...
Some people still buy unreliable cars (LR's), they typically just have to cost less or have another perceived benefit (image)
The question was more related to the notion that the design life was aligned with the warranty period. The expectation won't be that the turbo fails when the car is 3 years and 1 day old, that should be it's absolute minimum life to safeguard the car maker from warranty claims. Once you factor in engineering, material and component variables, and factor in variations in usage, and a factor of safety for other testing variables, no manufacture would risk engineering a turbo to align with the warranty expiry.
Scottie - NW said:
Your first sentence is ridiculous, as proved by the fact you contradict it in the next paragraph.
Your inability to read isn't my problem. It seems to be you that aren't making sense here.Scottie - NW said:
As is said, just because you modify does not mean you can not have a reliable turbo, correct maintenance and other safeguards can be taken. I would suggest a turbo on a modded vehicle that is well looked after with good quality oil changes is as reliable if not more so than a turbo on a neglected but standard vehicle.
Where did I say that... Clue by four... I didn't.I said all bets were off. When you start modding, you are going to start pushing components past their recommended specifications. Some components will be fine, others will not.
Scottie - NW said:
I've had modified turbo cars for over 20 years, and never had a turbo failure.
If you've never had a failure modding... you've clearly not been modding then. So I'm calling BS on that one.The Surveyor said:
The question was more related to the notion that the design life was aligned with the warranty period. The expectation won't be that the turbo fails when the car is 3 years and 1 day old, that should be it's absolute minimum life to safeguard the car maker from warranty claims. Once you factor in engineering, material and component variables, and factor in variations in usage, and a factor of safety for other testing variables, no manufacture would risk engineering a turbo to align with the warranty expiry.
OK, without becoming the prefect wordsmith, getting too nitty gritty and bearing in mind i can only comment from experience on the test, design and analysis side. I think that maybe a fair way of saying it would be, that design life has a strong correlation with warranty period and customer expectation. And that each manufacturer will value factors differently and manufacture accordingly.In most cases, the warranty time-frame should not be the absolute minimum target, many applications will predict and expect failures within the warranty period. With every design you get freak samples in testing that are outliers in both the positive and negative life, the cost of eliminating a low frequency, low lifespan components can be unfeasible. It can be more effective to just accept the negatives of warranty claims and all the other factors.
Also worth considering, failures beyond warranty can be potential aftermarket sales. Like everything, there's a balance to be struck.
Looking at it from a different angle:-
- Turbo's are MORE dependent upon servicing / maintenance / oil-levels / owner-care than a nat-asp car.
- How many new-car buyers nowadays actually CARE about their cars? They're all white-goods now sold on PCP or lease schemes so the punter never 'owns' the car and expects to trade up. Consequently they're treated as such...
- Oh, and many are serviced on 'long-life' 2 year / 16k mile intervals. Long time to go without the oil being checked or changed...
- ...so we're in an era of WORSE car maintenance, while being sold cars which (despite advances in technology) probably require MORE attention by the owner (even if just checking the dipstick or letting the engine warm-up / cool-down properly).
So it's not the physical turbo's per-se, or the manufacture of them (although that IS a consideration), it's the extra requirements they place on an ever-less-interested ownership profile.
(Put this way - I've run multiple old Hondas without considering a warranty - got a few bills as a result, but I've done OK. I'd not consider running a modern turbo'd car without a warranty)
- Turbo's are MORE dependent upon servicing / maintenance / oil-levels / owner-care than a nat-asp car.
- How many new-car buyers nowadays actually CARE about their cars? They're all white-goods now sold on PCP or lease schemes so the punter never 'owns' the car and expects to trade up. Consequently they're treated as such...
- Oh, and many are serviced on 'long-life' 2 year / 16k mile intervals. Long time to go without the oil being checked or changed...
- ...so we're in an era of WORSE car maintenance, while being sold cars which (despite advances in technology) probably require MORE attention by the owner (even if just checking the dipstick or letting the engine warm-up / cool-down properly).
So it's not the physical turbo's per-se, or the manufacture of them (although that IS a consideration), it's the extra requirements they place on an ever-less-interested ownership profile.
(Put this way - I've run multiple old Hondas without considering a warranty - got a few bills as a result, but I've done OK. I'd not consider running a modern turbo'd car without a warranty)
xjay1337 said:
havoc said:
(Put this way - I've run multiple old Hondas without considering a warranty - got a few bills as a result, but I've done OK. I'd not consider running a modern turbo'd car without a warranty)
So basically any car?why?????
Now I don't know about you, but I don't carry a £3k contingency fund for running my car. A grand yes, twice that or more no. Whereas a decent warranty can be had for ~£500/year. And that'll also cover things like common rail injection (also very expensive to replace and known to fail), and potentially interior electronics (BMW and VW warranties do this, for example), which are getting more and more complex and more-and-more integrated*.
* The time of replacing an ageing/failing manufacturer head unit with an aftermarket one is disappearing.
Well, yes OK, I do understand your point. but your numbers are way off.
Common turbos EG those for 2.0 TDI's etc can be had for £300 and take a few hours to replace.
My daily driver is my Mrs Altea 2.0 TDI. It has 165k on it, stock injectors and it has a turbo replacement as the old one went (but all the BKD turbos go, it's just what they do!)
Cars do break from time to time but they are not super fragile and personally wouldn't care about warranty on a car less than sort of £10k in value.
Common turbos EG those for 2.0 TDI's etc can be had for £300 and take a few hours to replace.
My daily driver is my Mrs Altea 2.0 TDI. It has 165k on it, stock injectors and it has a turbo replacement as the old one went (but all the BKD turbos go, it's just what they do!)
Cars do break from time to time but they are not super fragile and personally wouldn't care about warranty on a car less than sort of £10k in value.
I have been using turbo charged engine for about 30 years, used hundreds of them and have been around more when other machines were used in the same business that I've not used.
In that time I can think of 3 failures. One was on a tractor that was treated like a peasant treats his donkey and the other 2 both on the same family of Perkins engines in the same brand of loader. The loader goes from being switched off to full load and off again all of the time, so hard on engine life.
Turbo petrol engines are becoming common on cars now, but these engines will have been designed from the start to be turbo charged and develop a certain amount of power, they will have then been put through all of the duty cycle testing that all of the other engines in the line will have been.
I don't doubt that engines, turbo's and the whole car is built to a price, but the reputational damage by having repeated expensive failures could be high, that's unless you are a German brand of cars, or Land Rover or John Deere, in which case, they are "service items" and to be savoured.
In that time I can think of 3 failures. One was on a tractor that was treated like a peasant treats his donkey and the other 2 both on the same family of Perkins engines in the same brand of loader. The loader goes from being switched off to full load and off again all of the time, so hard on engine life.
Turbo petrol engines are becoming common on cars now, but these engines will have been designed from the start to be turbo charged and develop a certain amount of power, they will have then been put through all of the duty cycle testing that all of the other engines in the line will have been.
I don't doubt that engines, turbo's and the whole car is built to a price, but the reputational damage by having repeated expensive failures could be high, that's unless you are a German brand of cars, or Land Rover or John Deere, in which case, they are "service items" and to be savoured.
I’ve had a few ( petrol ) turbo cars. When you buy a car with a Turbo, especially one that’s tuned for performance over economy, you pays yer money, you takes yer chances. I’ve only had Jap turbos in the past, and they’ve not caused any particular heart aches, that a normally aspirated car hasn’t. Turbo diesels are slightly different in the way they work, and their design aims. People I know have had Turbos and injectors fail simultaneously, and had a bit of a bill on their hands. A lot of them seem to start getting flakey at roughly 80000 miles of reasonable intensity driving. That is striking, but not when you realise the stresses those parts are routinely under.
Friend of mine works for the emergency services. He drives a Mercedes E-class diesel, I'm guessing E220, but the car's often redlined from cold. It's about 5 years old and has covered 350,000km, so a little over 200,000 miles, but as it gets serviced exactly when it's due, the car's still on its original turbo.
If your turbo goes then you get another one. Big deal.
Why do people expect to buy a car of any age or mileage and expect no problems. It's called maintenance. The British public are so tight.
As others have said if u have a car from new, change oil twice as often as recommended and make sure you warm the engine before thrashing tits off it. Doing this will probably make your turbo last forever.
Why do people expect to buy a car of any age or mileage and expect no problems. It's called maintenance. The British public are so tight.
As others have said if u have a car from new, change oil twice as often as recommended and make sure you warm the engine before thrashing tits off it. Doing this will probably make your turbo last forever.
The_Open_Road said:
It seems that most new cars these days (petrol as well as diesel) have turbocharged engines.
How reliable are turbocharged engines?
Are we sitting on a ticking reliability timebomb of lots of turbo failures a few years from now?
Up to 7 years (i.e. the industry's expected lifespan of a car) there are no issues with turbochargers. Beyond that you're into scrap territory and nobody has high expectations for reliability anyway. How reliable are turbocharged engines?
Are we sitting on a ticking reliability timebomb of lots of turbo failures a few years from now?
xjay1337 said:
Well, yes OK, I do understand your point. but your numbers are way off.
Common turbos EG those for 2.0 TDI's etc can be had for £300 and take a few hours to replace.
Wife has a Mk7 Golf GTi - quick google came up with this thread and quote for a Golf-R...bigger turbo but hardly low-volume...Common turbos EG those for 2.0 TDI's etc can be had for £300 and take a few hours to replace.
https://www.vwroc.com/forums/topic/24893-golf-r-tu...
"Picked up the car with its new turbo and ancillary parts last night. Total parts came to £1874.55."
Even a used GTi part on eBay is up for £479.
So whilst I don't doubt you ref. an old TDi lump, for anything even mildly* interesting (and this IS PH, after all), you're definitely talking 4-figures as I said...
* Golf GTi is hardly the last word in PH'ness.
havoc said:
So whilst I don't doubt you ref. an old TDi lump, for anything even mildly* interesting (and this IS PH, after all), you're definitely talking 4-figures as I said...
VW main dealer prices for a complete turbo in that example, so no surprise that that'd empty your wallet.Unless a turbo has suffered catastrophic failure then most can be rebuilt rather than replaced. My TD04-15T cost £250 for a professional rebuild with all new Melett internals to cure a bit of smokiness under acceleration. It'd been like that for the previous 30k miles and could've probably done another 30k as it wasn't getting any worse so I had plenty of time to budget for such expense
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff