RE: Porsche abandons diesel for good

RE: Porsche abandons diesel for good

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unpc

2,831 posts

212 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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Ok not quite Cayenne sized but the Mrs just changed her diesel Evoque for a petrol Disco Sport and the petrol is night and day better in this application. Much smoother, just as torquey, much quicker, quieter, much more responsive and near as dammit the same consumption.


The only reason I can see for picking the diesel in this is slightly less road tax.

bertie

8,545 posts

283 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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Turbobanana said:
bertie said:
SydneySE said:
Sounds good to me; people who buy a prestige mark, such as a Porsche, and then choose diesel- it's just a tight person wanting to show they drive a prestige brand.... I never got why people bought diesel luxury cars, except pure scrooge mentality, after all its not environmentally friendly either.
I've got a Diesel Macan and it was only a diesel as I simply couldn't get a petrol, the wait was something like 9 months on a petrol when I was buying.

It'll be the last diesel I ever have, diesel belongs in trucks, trains and ships.
I think that illustrates the point, doesn't it?

The desire to drive a Porsche was so great, you bought a Diesel one.
Nope, the reasoning was that Mrs B wanted an off roader for whatever reason and wasn’t keen on the wallowyness of the previous RR sport so we sought out the best driving SUV we could which was and still is the Macan.

Unfortunately the wait for petrol orders was huge but there was a cancellation on a diesel.

Dale487

1,334 posts

122 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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kambites said:
Nanook said:
ZX10R NIN said:
For me the best combo on an SUV the size of a Cayenne would be a diesel hybrid.
Is anyone even making diesel hybrid cars?
I believe Mercedes do. It's difficult to do well because the emissions control hardware required by modern diesels really doesn't like the engine being stopped and started all the time. Plus starting a small diesel smoothly and unobtrusively is hard.
I think Peugeot historically made 5008 diesel hybrid - I get that diesels are great fans of the stop start nature of a hybrid drive train but the electric motor would help with things until the turbo spools up.

I've always felt it strange that only VAG (Golf GTE and the new Panamera & Cayenne Hybrids) run turbo petrol engines with their hybrid drive trains - I assume its cost related.

white_goodman

4,042 posts

190 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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Whereas I was never a fan of the V6 diesel (or any of the V6s for that matter) in the Cayenne/Panamera as I didn't feel that they offered the superior performance that I would expect from a Porsche over an Audi, I did think the big V8 diesel had appeal. These aren't sports cars but offer luxury and long-distance comfort and for this type of use in a big saloon/estate/SUV, a big diesel seems kind of perfect. Diesel has been demonised over the last few years but for high speed at steady rpm, diesel still wins over petrol/hybrid/electric for efficiency. Maybe you would get the turbo if you were a millionaire but you can hardly take the moral high ground for your potentially single figure fuel consumption and pumping out that level of CO2 and the range-topping petrol-powered Turbo/Turbo S models cost significantly more than the V8 diesels. If I didn't want to stretch to the Turbo or it just wasn't practical, the V8 diesel would have been my next choice in the range. These are practical day-to-day vehicles, which still offer luxury, performance and superior handling but not all wealthy people want to throw money away when they could have ample, effortless performance without being "on it" at 6-7k revs (the V8 diesel has the same amount of torque as the Turbo S) and potentially double the range. It's likely that the kinds of people that buy these type of cars will have one or several petrol-powered sports cars/supercars in the fleet for driving enjoyment too.

Petrol hybrids/EVs will replace your average four-pot diesels and that's absolutely fine. The best petrol engines are within 5mpg of the equivalent diesel now anyway (VW Golf for instance). But at the higher end, cars like the V8 diesel Panamera/Cayenne, Audi SQ7, Bentley Bentayga and Range Rover still have appeal in the context of those vehicles. Who wants a Range Rover with a four-pot petrol for 100k (hybrid)?

At least Porsche had the decency to keep the V8 in it's range-topping Panamera hybrid though. You have full EV for zero-emissions urban driving but still a thundering V8 for high speed power, refinement and performance enhanced by electric power.

ericmcn

1,999 posts

96 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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Audemars said:
Diesels....what a joke.

Cars that cannot do regular short journeys without failing are a failed product. A dpf should last the lifetime of the car and should never require repair. In the event it does require a repair it should cost £10.

How did modern diesel cars ever get so popular?

Good riddance.
no idea, the terrible clatter from them should have been a giveaway - the lure of cheap VED to save punters a few hundred quid a year....on top of the time they are spent in a garage and the frequent doses of adblue probably has people in a much worse situation than they bargained for. I cringe all the time I see asthmatic diesels and the bellowing of soot and crap out of exhausts.

ZX10R NIN

27,494 posts

124 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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ericmcn said:
Audemars said:
Diesels....what a joke.

Cars that cannot do regular short journeys without failing are a failed product. A dpf should last the lifetime of the car and should never require repair. In the event it does require a repair it should cost £10.

How did modern diesel cars ever get so popular?

Good riddance.
no idea, the terrible clatter from them should have been a giveaway - the lure of cheap VED to save punters a few hundred quid a year....on top of the time they are spent in a garage and the frequent doses of adblue probably has people in a much worse situation than they bargained for. I cringe all the time I see asthmatic diesels and the bellowing of soot and crap out of exhausts.
Have you two heard a V6/V8d? I'd like to know where the clatter that you're talking about comes from? Or are you talking about engines that aren't relevant to this conversation?
They're not cheap VED either

Also people keep talking about soot & crap out of exhausts I've not seen that on modern diesels, so I ask again are you talking about relevant engines.

For me it's simple you match the form of propulsion to the proposed usage of each buyer that way you're actually helping the environment much more than pushing one form over another.

Lincsls1

3,327 posts

139 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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Ninja59 said:
I do agree with so many others in this thread though a petrol SUV is useless without a hybrid. You need that torque to get these detached houses going nicely off the line (not that i "like" this particular segment of the market, but it is hard to ignore the fact that they are hugely popular).
What is all this about? Yes a diesel with a turbo is very torquey, but then they are all 'turbo diesels'. Do we not remember how utterly gutless all those non-turbo diesels used to be?
If you buy a large-ish petrol engine, say 2litres upwards and its a turbo charged version, then they are also hugely torquey and IMO even more flexible especially off the line at a roundabout for example.
Too often, people comment on the lack of performance from a NA petrol engine these days, comparing them directly to a similar sized if not bigger capacity diesel which has a significant power adder as a given - the turbo!
Like for like capacity, a turbo petrol is often as torquey as the turbo diesel, but generally has a good few more bhp, smoother, quieter and more flexible. They only lack in MPG, the original most popular reason for buying a diesel.

Plug Life

978 posts

90 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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Good riddance.

tedblog

1,438 posts

79 months

Tuesday 25th September 2018
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Nanook said:
ZX10R NIN said:
For me the best combo on an SUV the size of a Cayenne would be a diesel hybrid.
Is anyone even making diesel hybrid cars?
Yes Mercedes are . Its in the new GLE on sale next year.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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Good riddance

Cobnapint

8,597 posts

150 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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ZX10R NIN said:
Chestrockwell said:
I drove a Cayenne GTS, the 4.8 one, 62 plate.

It was a very brief drive, and it was a full throttle type of drive, took it up and down the road, probably a miles worth, stupid car, average consumption was 18 and I managed 7, I wouldn’t say it was under powered but it made lots of noise with hardly any real progress, I wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole, I’d much rather a diesel version. A car like the Cayenne doesn’t need a thirsty NA V8, it needs a smooth quiet V6 diesel (they are quiet).

That’s if you can’t afford the turbo version, in that case, get the turbo, but I couldn’t think of anything else more suited to a diesel!

I’m all for diesel in cars like these, they’re not 911’s, they’re big safe family cars for people with money who like Porsche and want something sensible.
+1 to the above.

The peach of the Cayenne range is the 4.2d enough go to give a GTS a hard time a nice hint of a V8 engine note allied to a nice slug of torque which means you're never out of the power range & good fuel numbers, what's not to like.

For those that keep banging on that it's a diesel therefore rubbish, you need to drive one or a 4.4d Range Rover for that matter they're good engines.

I believe in putting the right engine in the right car be it EV/Petrol or Diesel all have there place in a product range, would I buy a performance SUV? No I wouldn't as imo it seems like a waste of time but I would happily buy a diesel one if I was in the market for an SUV.
These two ^^

Spot on.

Cobnapint

8,597 posts

150 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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ZX10R NIN said:
Have you two heard a V6/V8d? I'd like to know where the clatter that you're talking about comes from?

Also people keep talking about soot & crap out of exhausts I've not seen that on modern diesels, so I ask again are you talking about relevant engines.
Have to agree. Diesel haters gonna hate.

They're perception of diesel is about 15 years out of date - modern diesels don't smoke - or clatter like they used to.

I freely admit it's no fun being stuck behind a 54 plate diesel Mondeo, or 07 plate RR. In fact it's disgusting. But to keep posting things like 'good riddance' in an age where diesel engines have never been so clean reeks of bandwagon jumping.


greenarrow

3,551 posts

116 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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Cobnapint said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Have you two heard a V6/V8d? I'd like to know where the clatter that you're talking about comes from?

Also people keep talking about soot & crap out of exhausts I've not seen that on modern diesels, so I ask again are you talking about relevant engines.
Have to agree. Diesel haters gonna hate.

They're perception of diesel is about 15 years out of date - modern diesels don't smoke - or clatter like they used to.

I freely admit it's no fun being stuck behind a 54 plate diesel Mondeo, or 07 plate RR. In fact it's disgusting. But to keep posting things like 'good riddance' in an age where diesel engines have never been so clean reeks of bandwagon jumping.
Yep, spot on post from ZX10R NIN

So much hysteria on here about diesels, the irony being that one of the best all round Porsches you could buy was the Panamera diesel V8. 0-100 Timed by Autocar in 10 seconds dead (60 in under 4 secs in one test I read), yet able to deliver +40MPG on a run, giving huge touring range. Even richer owners do care about things like fuel economy so why wouldn't you choose the diesel V8 when it offered similar performance to the petrol V8 but with double the fuel economy and range?

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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greenarrow said:
Yep, spot on post from ZX10R NIN

So much hysteria on here about diesels, the irony being that one of the best all round Porsches you could buy was the Panamera diesel V8. 0-100 Timed by Autocar in 10 seconds dead (60 in under 4 secs in one test I read), yet able to deliver +40MPG on a run, giving huge touring range. Even richer owners do care about things like fuel economy so why wouldn't you choose the diesel V8 when it offered similar performance to the petrol V8 but with double the fuel economy and range?
Fuel economy is important /unless you have an absolutely vast fuel tank you end up stopping at fuel stations wasting time and normally in Middle winter cold wet etc.

Imagine a world where trucks were diesel hybrids. Full EV in villages/towns etc and then when out on the open road it can be supplemented by the actual engine - or be able to downscale the size of he Diesel engine leave it running all the time (out of city) charging the batteries so it’s running EV on he road - the Diesel engine held at the RPM which is the most efficient. No throttlemovement at all just same RPM only shutting off when the batteries have enough to get to the destination.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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That said both of our cars when replaced will be hybrid (petrol hybrid) EV (family hack) and petrol fun for me. We’ve done Diesel for many years and the use we have and see ongoing EV would be ideal (imagine 7 seater EV with decent range and not cost the price of a house it would sell like hot cakes to all the families in the U.K.)

sc0tt

18,032 posts

200 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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Father in Law picked up his 2017 cayenne s last week and has driven it down to spain.

It is ridiculously fast for the sheer size of it.

4.2 v8 turbo diesel is a very impressive power unit.

Welshbeef

49,633 posts

197 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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sc0tt said:
Father in Law picked up his 2017 cayenne s last week and has driven it down to spain.

It is ridiculously fast for the sheer size of it.

4.2 v8 turbo diesel is a very impressive power unit.
Then you remap it too

irfan1712

1,241 posts

152 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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J4CKO said:
irfan1712 said:
Iamnotkloot said:
Porsche and diesel never sat right with me but I do have sympathy with people who were encouraged to buy diesel by successive governments and have now been stitched up.
quite right, but Porsche and ''SUV'' do? wasn't picking on you but everyone slates a sports car brand for putting diesel engines in their cars - but where does that argument end, because wouldn't the same people have a problem with Porsche sticking their badge on SUVs? The formula shouldn't work and maybe it doesn't, but their sales till now suggest otherwise.

I just got myself a 2017 diesel V8 Panamera. it replaced a C63, I loathed diesels but for 20k business miles a year it just makes sense in so many ways (and it'll out perform the 63 anyway). I didn't buy the petrol because I'm tight - the petrols were the same or more expensive to purchase yet wouldn't come near the economy of the dirty stinky diesel.

More so I had it at a bargain (all things relative) due to the fact its diesel and OPCs generally want rid. I signed a disclaimer saying Porsche would refund money based on the purchase price and age/mileage at the time, If politicians and the like brought in legislation that made my car unroadworthy. Gives us Porsche diesel customers piece of mind that atleast in our ownership we wouldn't face any issues regarding the current diesel circus.
I know you have had both and the later V8 diesel Panamera is pretty rapid, but outperform a C63 ? a car with more power and lighter weight that seems to post faster acceleration times ?

I can see how it would be in the same ball park and diesels go well based on high torque from low RPM but surely, ultimately a C63 at full noise will be quicker than the Panamera ?
Yep, believe! We tried it before I sold mine, in a straight line atleast.

The c63's 0-60 is 4.4 seconds - Panamera is 4.3. not a world of difference but off the mark the c63 wouldn't stand a chance, the four wheel drive on the Porsche is fantastic with launch control, infact its brutal. By all means the c63 was more chuckable being smaller but doing so would become skittish - you cant exactly dive into corners with a Panamera because its the same size as the titanic but that four wheel drive, which is rwd bias, and the air suspension is nothing short of sublime.

the powerplant itself is a peach - Its the only diesel I have ever driven that never runs out of steam and will pull to the redline just like a petrol would. Downside to that is when you take it in manual mode to have a play you can bash into the rev limiter quite quickly which is a bit anti climatic. The gt3's PDK 8 speed box used is also brilliant though. The problem for me is that it is so fast and explodes with torque, but its borderline silent - anything is compared to a C63. There is no drama, dare i say excitement. But then my commute wasn't exciting in a C63 sat in traffic and sitting on the M4 all day and I know which car i'd rather be sat in for those duties - the occasional battering on the weekend in the C63 is still doable in the Panamera. It just excellent at doing everything exceptionally well and honestly, there isn't many downsides. Theres a grunty but V8 noise which is actually quite pleasant, but there is defo no obvious sign its a diesel. At idle perhaps, but even so the clatter is quiet.

Never the less the c63 will be one of the best cars I will ever own, and that M156 is in my opinion the best engine that the everyday man could get his hands on. After the Panamera I have decided to get into a blackseries and buy a cheap workhorse for work duties - But a diesel panamera at the moment fits the bill perfectly.

and as a side point, the pan is faster than the c63, is light years ahead in the tech and interior department, and I've still averaged a solid 38mpg over 3k miles of pretty hard driving so far returning atleast 600 miles per tank. Coupled with 420bhp, 630lb ft of torque, & considering its 5 meters in length, 2 meters wide, 2 tonnes, 21'' wheels.. its quite an achievement. Yes its expensive to buy but remind myself its replaced two cars - Panamera residuals are pretty solid compared to rival cars and the fact its £200 to tax and only needs a service every 20k, which is a fixed price of £400 from an OPC, still means its actually cheaper than you'd expect to run. Tyres are pretty eye watering though. Insurance was cheaper than the C63 too.


Edited by irfan1712 on Wednesday 26th September 12:41


Edited by irfan1712 on Wednesday 26th September 12:48

Chestrockwell

2,624 posts

156 months

Wednesday 26th September 2018
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irfan1712 said:
Yep, believe! We tried it before I sold mine, in a straight line atleast.

The c63's 0-60 is 4.4 seconds - Panamera is 4.3. not a world of difference but off the mark the c63 wouldn't stand a chance, the four wheel drive on the Porsche is fantastic with launch control, infact its brutal. By all means the c63 was more chuckable being smaller but doing so would become skittish - you cant exactly dive into corners with a Panamera because its the same size as the titanic but that four wheel drive, which is rwd bias, and the air suspension is nothing short of sublime.

the powerplant itself is a peach - Its the only diesel I have ever driven that never runs out of steam and will pull to the redline just like a petrol would. Downside to that is when you take it in manual mode to have a play you can bash into the rev limiter quite quickly which is a bit anti climatic. The gt3's PDK 8 speed box used is also brilliant though. The problem for me is that it is so fast and explodes with torque, but its borderline silent - anything is compared to a C63. There is no drama, dare i say excitement. But then my commute wasn't exciting in a C63 sat in traffic and sitting on the M4 all day and I know which car i'd rather be sat in for those duties - the occasional battering on the weekend in the C63 is still doable in the Panamera. It just excellent at doing everything exceptionally well and honestly, there isn't many downsides. Theres a grunty but V8 noise which is actually quite pleasant, but there is defo no obvious sign its a diesel. At idle perhaps, but even so the clatter is quiet.

Never the less the c63 will be one of the best cars I will ever own, and that M156 is in my opinion the best engine that the everyday man could get his hands on. After the Panamera I have decided to get into a blackseries and buy a cheap workhorse for work duties - But a diesel panamera at the moment fits the bill perfectly.

and as a side point, the pan is faster than the c63, is light years ahead in the tech and interior department, and I've still averaged a solid 38mpg over 3k miles of pretty hard driving so far returning atleast 600 miles per tank. Coupled with 420bhp, 630lb ft of torque, & considering its 5 meters in length, 2 meters wide, 2 tonnes, 21'' wheels.. its quite an achievement. Yes its expensive to buy but remind myself its replaced two cars - Panamera residuals are pretty solid compared to rival cars and the fact its £200 to tax and only needs a service every 20k, which is a fixed price of £400 from an OPC, still means its actually cheaper than you'd expect to run. Tyres are pretty eye watering though. Insurance was cheaper than the C63 too.


Edited by irfan1712 on Wednesday 26th September 12:41


Edited by irfan1712 on Wednesday 26th September 12:48
Wow, for some reason, a V8 diesel Panamera appeals to me more than the turbo, not sure what it is, the thought of a filthy one covered in grit and dust from a long drive across Europe just does something to me!

Sierra Mike

877 posts

194 months

Thursday 27th September 2018
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cayman-black said:
Those who wanted a new Cayenne with that big v8 diesel will be upset.
Yes I am.

It would have been an incredible car and I hope Porsche does a U-turn on this decision. it certainly put a smile on my face when I drove the outgoing car not to mention everyone who was a passenger. It was an absolute beast of a car and I would buy the new one in a heartbeat.