RE: All-new 2019 BMW 3 Series revealed
Discussion
white_goodman said:
Re the 3-Series vs. Tesla Model 3 in America, the 3-Series is very much priced as a luxury car over there and significantly more money than say an Accord or Camry, so it's not as huge a seller as in Europe, where the premium over a Mondeo or Insignia isn't as big (especially on a lease). They also don't sell it in the more basic specs with the less powerful engines. Americans also tend to support domestic brands more i.e. Tesla, so I wouldn't necessarily say that the Model 3's success in America is indicative of its success (or the 3-Series relatively lack of success) globally. What is the price differential between a Model 3 and a 3-Series in the USA?
The Model 3 is 'famously' the $35,000 Tesla....except that base model (50kWh) isn't available (or wasn't the last time I was in the US, 6 weeks ago.) The range starts at $44,000 (minus $7,500 tax levy most states offer) for the 270bhp 75kWh LR. In reality, I know three owners, all paid between $50k & $55k for them with some extras.Above that there is the 350bhp $55k AWD and 450bhp $64k AWD Performance
The 3-series starts at $35k for the 320i, $42k for the 330i up to $48k for the 340i, again, with zero options.
So it depends what you class as the competing model. The lowest spec Model 3 available (the LR model mentioned above) hits 60 in c5-secs, the AWD and AWD Performance being 4.5 and 3.5 respectively. The base $35k car is 5.6 to 60.
....but they are priced pretty similarly on purchase price, unless you get the $7,500 tax rebate. Running costs are obviously another matter....but with fuel being so cheap in the US, there probably it's a huge amount in it.
RobDickinson said:
That is ignoring the tax credit..?
That's why I said pre tax credit. Currently that makes the model 3 $7500 cheaper until the end of the year then it drops to 50 percent of that. Assuming you have enough taxes to claim it etc.
Yes, I know it's ignoring the tax credit. How much does it cost the customer (ie the cost a purchaser pays compared to a 3er)That's why I said pre tax credit. Currently that makes the model 3 $7500 cheaper until the end of the year then it drops to 50 percent of that. Assuming you have enough taxes to claim it etc.
What I said before..?
Model 3 long range is 49,000 cash to buy, (plus state taxes which are never on USA car prices)
Later at tax time you might get some of that back against your tax payment.
The after savings is after tax rebate and fuel savings.
The current long range has premium interior and pano roof but you can't spec without.
Add 1200 delivery /otr costs and probably paint too.
Model 3 long range is 49,000 cash to buy, (plus state taxes which are never on USA car prices)
Later at tax time you might get some of that back against your tax payment.
The after savings is after tax rebate and fuel savings.
The current long range has premium interior and pano roof but you can't spec without.
Add 1200 delivery /otr costs and probably paint too.
RobDickinson said:
white_goodman said:
What is the price differential between a Model 3 and a 3-Series in the USA?
Model 3 long range rwd is around the same price pre tax credit as the 340i ( $49,000), I think the P3d is similar price to m3 depending on options etc. I think the 330 is the smallest 3 they sell over there.RobDickinson said:
What I said before..?
Model 3 long range is 49,000 cash to buy, (plus state taxes which are never on USA car prices)
Later at tax time you might get some of that back against your tax payment.
The after savings is after tax rebate and fuel savings.
The current long range has premium interior and pano roof but you can't spec without.
Add 1200 delivery /otr costs and probably paint too.
Yes, but that premium interior package is a $5,000 option - brings heated seats and nicer interior trim materials plus power memory front seats, upgraded stereo, more speakers and a tinted glass roof). Tesla are snide in the way they package, you have to deselect included package(s) and only at certain times. Back in summer you could order without, and will be able to again.Model 3 long range is 49,000 cash to buy, (plus state taxes which are never on USA car prices)
Later at tax time you might get some of that back against your tax payment.
The after savings is after tax rebate and fuel savings.
The current long range has premium interior and pano roof but you can't spec without.
Add 1200 delivery /otr costs and probably paint too.
Given that production of the Model 3 doesn’t start on right hand drive vehicles until 2019 why are we even talking about it as competition?
I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
yonex said:
Given that production of the Model 3 doesn’t start on right hand drive vehicles until 2019 why are we even talking about it as competition?
I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
It was the US sales of Tesla Vs BMW/Merc etc that was being cited.I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
Ares said:
It was the US sales of Tesla Vs BMW/Merc etc that was being cited.
Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
Hardly a grenade - grenades stay in one piece longer Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
Ares said:
yonex said:
Given that production of the Model 3 doesn’t start on right hand drive vehicles until 2019 why are we even talking about it as competition?
I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
It was the US sales of Tesla Vs BMW/Merc etc that was being cited.I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
As has been pointed out, Tesla have spent their entire existence developing the EV where as the established manufacturers have had a traditional business run whilst also developing their EV future. Tesla have got themselves a bit of a head start but... they are not over the hills and far away IMO. The big boys know how to build cars. They've been doing it a long time. I think their demise has been greatly exaggerated. They will be up there with Tesla in the range stakes and don't doubt they know what they are doing.
HighwayStar said:
Ares said:
yonex said:
Given that production of the Model 3 doesn’t start on right hand drive vehicles until 2019 why are we even talking about it as competition?
I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
It was the US sales of Tesla Vs BMW/Merc etc that was being cited.I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
As has been pointed out, Tesla have spent their entire existence developing the EV where as the established manufacturers have had a traditional business run whilst also developing their EV future. Tesla have got themselves a bit of a head start but... they are not over the hills and far away IMO. The big boys know how to build cars. They've been doing it a long time. I think their demise has been greatly exaggerated. They will be up there with Tesla in the range stakes and don't doubt they know what they are doing.
All Toyota have to do is design a Toyota Prius that doesn't look like a frost bitten foot and they'll have the Model 3 market sewn up
daveco said:
HighwayStar said:
Ares said:
yonex said:
Given that production of the Model 3 doesn’t start on right hand drive vehicles until 2019 why are we even talking about it as competition?
I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
It was the US sales of Tesla Vs BMW/Merc etc that was being cited.I guess this could all be said in one of the many Tesla threads, quite why it’s here in what was supposed to be about the new 3 Series, which is actually in production, is a mystery?
Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
As has been pointed out, Tesla have spent their entire existence developing the EV where as the established manufacturers have had a traditional business run whilst also developing their EV future. Tesla have got themselves a bit of a head start but... they are not over the hills and far away IMO. The big boys know how to build cars. They've been doing it a long time. I think their demise has been greatly exaggerated. They will be up there with Tesla in the range stakes and don't doubt they know what they are doing.
All Toyota have to do is design a Toyota Prius that doesn't look like a frost bitten foot and they'll have the Model 3 market sewn up
Ares said:
It was the US sales of Tesla Vs BMW/Merc etc that was being cited.
Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
Their business model of dealers is obsolete.Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
I also think this 3 series in its current form will be obsolete within its model lifecycle of 8 years competition from China will also give them a tough time, every car maker and new to us car maker will attack the premium market first. BMW do nothing but the premium market.
jamoor said:
Ares said:
It was the US sales of Tesla Vs BMW/Merc etc that was being cited.
Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
Their business model of dealers is obsolete.Tesla have thrown a grenade into the car market.....but the claims that they have decimated BMW, and that BMW (and others) are now obsolete for releasing an ICE is far far from reality.
I also think this 3 series in its current form will be obsolete within its model lifecycle of 8 years competition from China will also give them a tough time, every car maker and new to us car maker will attack the premium market first. BMW do nothing but the premium market.
HighwayStar said:
So what you mean is the Audi, BMW, Merc, Jag, Lexus segment is dead... and they are all just sitting there looking the other way with nothing to offer in those 8yrs? No disputing new challengers will emerge but it's a big stretch to imagine premium sector customers are going to desert the established premiums guys for Chinese, Korean and mainstream players. This is Nokia looking the other way because Apple weren't the real competition.
If the product is significantly better technology wise, the established players haven't a chance.Technology and connivence wins every time.
Think about it, if someone came upto and told you that you can have this nice car thats the same price as the one you are thinking of buying that has very little chance of breaking down, is silent, costs pennies to run and you don't have to put up with dodgy dealers. People will flock to buy it..
...and therein lies the problem. As I've said before, equivalent EVs are still a lot more expensive than the equivalent ICE car, even after government subsidies and I still doubt any of them make a profit on their own. Before the above prophecies come true and a standard ICE 3 series or C Class is obsolete, we need a £30k-£35k EV 3 series rival turning a profit and not propped up by ICE cars or billionaire investors. The gov subsidy will also go once they become commonplace. We're surely a long way from that, if Tesla can't even generate a profit yet? Next year the model 3 will be selling for circa £40k in the UK, so we're close on price, but we still need to see profits for the idea to work.
jamoor said:
Their business model of dealers is obsolete.
I also think this 3 series in its current form will be obsolete within its model lifecycle of 8 years competition from China will also give them a tough time, every car maker and new to us car maker will attack the premium market first. BMW do nothing but the premium market.
Good job Tesla don;t have any dealers isn't it.I also think this 3 series in its current form will be obsolete within its model lifecycle of 8 years competition from China will also give them a tough time, every car maker and new to us car maker will attack the premium market first. BMW do nothing but the premium market.
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/findus/list/stores/uni...
Oh.
And the Chinese miscling in on BMW's turf? Really? Outside of Volvo, I really don't see the others managing it - I mean Kia and Hyundai turned up, yet BMW's sales have gone from strength to strength. Not sure if I'm seeing much logic here tbh.
Ares said:
Yes, but that premium interior package is a $5,000 option - brings heated seats and nicer interior trim materials plus power memory front seats, upgraded stereo, more speakers and a tinted glass roof). Tesla are snide in the way they package, you have to deselect included package(s) and only at certain times. Back in summer you could order without, and will be able to again.
They are only making cars with those options. You can't remove those and still get a car(yet) . For now it's as unrealistic as the 35k Tesla. And tbh to compare against BMW it should have the premium interior fitted anyhow
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly. I just don’t see a future for Tesla as anything else than a battery supplier or technical partner? All the major manufacturers are probably looking at it more sensibly. Technology is moving at such a rate that it’s not the best idea to commit fully right now. I don’t buy into the whole Tesla arguement, I.e. they have the jump on everyone. Manufactures like Porsche, like BMW, like VAG, have access to enormous resources in all areas of development. All I can see as a USP for Tesla is range and straighline performance. Both of these will be matched and surpassed each generation of battery and motor. What they haven’t got is any pedigree, any motorsport to lean on, or even a car which doesn’t look like it comes out of a 10 year olds scratch book.
If anyone believes Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Kia etc will not mop up the utilitarian EV commuter market, I’ll be a Dutchman. Similarly when someone like BMW offer an M5 EV they will sell bucket loads.
Cars are an emotive purchase and nobody really buys into this white goods model that Tesla offers, do they? Dealer networks may change but they’ll never totally fade out I’m sure.
I asked in another thread about the original Tesla roadster, is it even supported, could you get a battery upgrade, if you took it for a service would they look at you like you were mad?
Tesla has solved very many problems that the others have not. The others all talk about rolling out cars in a year or two at best (other than Jaguar) and have no charging network to support the higher wattages required to quickly charge cars with large batteries. What you would think is basic stuff like being able to diagnose a car remotely, doing remote software updates, that's all scifi levels of rocket science for everyone else. I have a BMW and their inability to do anything with it that doesn't require keeping it for two days is pretty shocking in this day and age. I saw a great comment by a Tesla owner: it's the only car on the market that gets better as it sits on the driveway. Tesla has changed so many things about what a car is and how it's sold and maintained it's pretty incredible. The others are essentially talking about copying this in a few years time. At which time Tesla will have moved things along again, assuming they're still in business. Of course the others will bring more expertise around handling and all that so I would expect a Porsche EV to be a mighty thing and BMW is of course already doing good work with the i3 as an example.
Tesla supposedly has the lowest battery production costs of anyone and as far as I remember the highest margins of anyone. This is not unimportant.
The opposition has buildings full of diesel and petrol tech expertise which is not that relevant anymore. That's all table stakes now.
I have absolutely no idea what the new 3-series is about and nor do I care. It represents legacy now, it doesn't interest me. That stuff is just squeezing revenue out of sunk development cost. I'm guessing it's about the usual stuff like a bigger iDrive screen, some tuned exhaust sounds through the speakers, WLTP compliance, maybe a few more horsepower and less CO2 here and there. This stuff is just staggeringly uninteresting when we're about to have a complete shift in propulsion technology in a couple of years time.
Tesla supposedly has the lowest battery production costs of anyone and as far as I remember the highest margins of anyone. This is not unimportant.
The opposition has buildings full of diesel and petrol tech expertise which is not that relevant anymore. That's all table stakes now.
I have absolutely no idea what the new 3-series is about and nor do I care. It represents legacy now, it doesn't interest me. That stuff is just squeezing revenue out of sunk development cost. I'm guessing it's about the usual stuff like a bigger iDrive screen, some tuned exhaust sounds through the speakers, WLTP compliance, maybe a few more horsepower and less CO2 here and there. This stuff is just staggeringly uninteresting when we're about to have a complete shift in propulsion technology in a couple of years time.
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