RE: 2020 Land Rover Defender - first sighting!
Discussion
Willy Nilly said:
I don't think it's that important. Look at where the bulk of the Jap pickups now ply their trade and it's farms and building sites. You certainly need some axle articulation but not the kind shown in 300's pictures. A tenant had a new Ranger at work and I honestly think that the off roadyness of it makes it less useful because it's made the vehicle so big and thus more difficult to put anything in the bed, never mind get it out. All for a very small percentage of gain in usability. They perhaps should have that on offer as a more hardcore choice but for most people most of the time something lower would be more usefull.
Absolutely Willy Nilly. I am a farmer and what I really would find practical is something light and low like a Bedford Rascal or a Suzuki Carry but I doubt if anything like that is still available. With these huge pickups actual practicality seems to have been traded for status and faux ruggedness. Even among farmers.Edited by muchacho on Tuesday 2nd October 18:40
Edited by muchacho on Tuesday 2nd October 18:40
The thickness of the C pillar on that, particularly from the rear off side tracking shot (with the left turn sign in it) suggests to me that it could be a twin cab/crew cab with a canapy/fake back on.
It looks very heavily covered up - personally I will reserve judgement until more is known rather than overreact on a few shots.
It looks very heavily covered up - personally I will reserve judgement until more is known rather than overreact on a few shots.
Max_Torque said:
Krikkit said:
One thing I would question is whether axle articulation is actually that important to even the bulk of its very serious users? Alright it matters at a pay&play day, but do the usual scenarios of rutted muddy fields really require all that much?
I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
For very serious off roaders, then axle articulation IS important because it softens the outer edges of the envelope when a cross axle situation occurs. Without it, you are lifting wheels at which point you have zero spring rate, which means when that wheel comes back down to the ground it does so with rapidly with a bump (leading to loss of traction or even a roll over in-extremis)I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
But we are talking terrain that would be considered very serious tbh. In most cases, what matters are the tyres that are fitted, and here is the biggest compromise that is difficult to solve, because a good off road tyre really is diametrically opposite of the design of a good on-road one. Something like a D4 gets stuck in a wet grass field because it's on road biased tyres and not because it is 'poor' off road persay!
The max articulation case is an extreme outlier to my mind, and most of the time the live axle defenders end up modded to hell to make them better anyway.
But yes, above all, tyres are the critical bit. As the range rover and discovery prove.
I worked on the mid-2000s stillborn attempt to replace the Defender (L383 was the code name). It was to be built on the same T5 platform as the L319/L320 cousins, which would have retained a ladder chassis, but would have had IRS.
Interestingly, one of the programme assumptions at the time was that it would use the coil spring suspension of the base model Discovery rather than the more adjustable air springs, all driven by cost.
Ultimately, the programme was canned at a relatively early stage, as we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s.
The Defender was doubly hurt by the lack of product investment. It gradually lost its competitiveness, while also cementing the idea in people's heads about what a Defender should be (i.e. if it never changes, that's how it should be).
Try to imagine what a Defender would look like today, had it received the proper level of investment. When it went out of production 2 years ago, it was essentially the same vehicle as the 1980s 90 and 110. Normally, a car would have had at least 4 or even 5 ground-up redesigns in that period.
Interestingly, one of the programme assumptions at the time was that it would use the coil spring suspension of the base model Discovery rather than the more adjustable air springs, all driven by cost.
Ultimately, the programme was canned at a relatively early stage, as we just couldn't make the business case work for what was (and still is) a relatively tiny market for utility 4x4s.
The Defender was doubly hurt by the lack of product investment. It gradually lost its competitiveness, while also cementing the idea in people's heads about what a Defender should be (i.e. if it never changes, that's how it should be).
Try to imagine what a Defender would look like today, had it received the proper level of investment. When it went out of production 2 years ago, it was essentially the same vehicle as the 1980s 90 and 110. Normally, a car would have had at least 4 or even 5 ground-up redesigns in that period.
Krikkit said:
When I say serious, I mean business users like utility companies, farmers etc where they put some knobblier tyres on it and send it out to work.
The max articulation case is an extreme outlier to my mind, and most of the time the live axle defenders end up modded to hell to make them better anyway.
But yes, above all, tyres are the critical bit. As the range rover and discovery prove.
Most of the time they just need to be about to travel around a muddy building site or farm. By the time you'd explored the mental axle articulation angles most of what you were carrying in the bed would have fallen out. The max articulation case is an extreme outlier to my mind, and most of the time the live axle defenders end up modded to hell to make them better anyway.
But yes, above all, tyres are the critical bit. As the range rover and discovery prove.
Willy Nilly said:
b
ks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover.
Absolutely this. When it really matters you take a Land Cruiser or a Hilux with a machine gun mounted in the bed. ks is it unrivalled. When was the last time you saw a Defender on the news with a rocket launcher bolted in the back? When your life depends on it, you don't take the Land Rover. Suzuki didn't launch the new Jimny with a turbo engine as its one more thing to go wrong. Thats the mindset that needs to be applied to the Defender. No one needs feckin air suspension with a load of dodgy sensors in the middle of a war zone or natural disaster rescue or as a 10yr old vehicle on a farm. The Defender will be another 70k vanity vehicle.
Edited by woody33 on Tuesday 2nd October 21:02
Well this is disappointing but not unexpected. It would have been nice to have kept the Defender as a sort of 'Halo' model a la the VW Phaeton, where sense and economics were set aside and they just built the most durable, capable utility 4x4 they could. I wonder was there any discussion about the long term image of the Land Rover brand, I mean can you still claim the title of 'best 4x4 by far' if all you make are jacked up SUVs?
I'm sure it will be just as good as the current crop of Land Rover SUVs at dragging itself around a 'Landrover experiece' course, but there is a difference between being capable of going off road, and being good at going off road. Solid axles are more capable as has already been mentioned, but they are also a lot more durable than an independent set up. No doubt it will be a massive sales success though.
At least we've still got the Jimny.
I'm sure it will be just as good as the current crop of Land Rover SUVs at dragging itself around a 'Landrover experiece' course, but there is a difference between being capable of going off road, and being good at going off road. Solid axles are more capable as has already been mentioned, but they are also a lot more durable than an independent set up. No doubt it will be a massive sales success though.
At least we've still got the Jimny.
300bhp/ton said:
I hope someone from JLR is reading this thread.
For the record... people who really want a Defender want something like this, just built by Land Rover...
There are already plenty of posing and lifestyle vehicles in the Land Rover range, we don't need another and certainly don't need the Defender name literally dragged through the mud on some unworthy Chelsea tractor.
Problem is, not many people want a defender.For the record... people who really want a Defender want something like this, just built by Land Rover...
There are already plenty of posing and lifestyle vehicles in the Land Rover range, we don't need another and certainly don't need the Defender name literally dragged through the mud on some unworthy Chelsea tractor.
Awww crap.
I was thinking the other day that Defender prices were beginning to tail off and perhaps return to semi-sensible levels....(wouldn't mind getting another one at some point - I miss mine no end). If this thing is trotted out it might send the prices of the old ones back up to silly prices again.
IFS vs Beam Axles have been done to death - a well sorted system using either method is more than capable (see the D4 or later RR). Same goes for the merits of body-on-frame vs unibody. There is no question that it will be capable off-road - the real question is 'would you WANT to take your 40k trendy upmarket Landy off-road?'
I genuinely hope I'm wrong - but I don't think you would in the 'new Defender' as opposed to the original. They should've called it something else and avoided the comparisons entirely.
I was thinking the other day that Defender prices were beginning to tail off and perhaps return to semi-sensible levels....(wouldn't mind getting another one at some point - I miss mine no end). If this thing is trotted out it might send the prices of the old ones back up to silly prices again.
IFS vs Beam Axles have been done to death - a well sorted system using either method is more than capable (see the D4 or later RR). Same goes for the merits of body-on-frame vs unibody. There is no question that it will be capable off-road - the real question is 'would you WANT to take your 40k trendy upmarket Landy off-road?'
I genuinely hope I'm wrong - but I don't think you would in the 'new Defender' as opposed to the original. They should've called it something else and avoided the comparisons entirely.
BugLebowski said:
Solid axles are more capable as has already been mentioned, but they are also a lot more durable than an independent set up.
worth noting that historically LR beam axles are made of chocolate! This is why they don't fit cross axle locks from the factory, because putting the full driveline torque though just half the axle turns it inside out. Building a proper, bomb proof LR axle requires one to get pretty darn spendy at the specialist aftermarket driveline companies!(it's because all LR axles are based on prewar rover car axles btw, sized for about 50bhp and a car weighing 800kg)
Max_Torque said:
worth noting that historically LR beam axles are made of chocolate! This is why they don't fit cross axle locks from the factory, because putting the full driveline torque though just half the axle turns it inside out. Building a proper, bomb proof LR axle requires one to get pretty darn spendy at the specialist aftermarket driveline companies!
(it's because all LR axles are based on prewar rover car axles btw, sized for about 50bhp and a car weighing 800kg)
Yes I believe the axles hail from a Rover P4. Although interestingly Dana has been manufacturing them for Rover for quite a while before production ceased. And Dana make some excellent live axles that are very strong and durable. (it's because all LR axles are based on prewar rover car axles btw, sized for about 50bhp and a car weighing 800kg)
Max_Torque said:
er, IFS also does this. In fact, any suspension system where the roll centre is below the CofG does this to some degree
(Beam axles have very high roll centres, which does indeed provide a greater load distribution, but the fundamental cross axle spring rate is typically the biggest affector)
I know what you are saying. But in practice they are different off road. (Beam axles have very high roll centres, which does indeed provide a greater load distribution, but the fundamental cross axle spring rate is typically the biggest affector)
Think of it a bit like holding a pencil in the middle. Push one end down and the other will raise. Snap the pencil in half and hold it at the join. Move one end and the other will do nothing. Hence “independent”. Off road this usually results in independent sprung vehciles lifting wheels off the ground a lot more and generally being less stable.
Krikkit said:
When I say serious, I mean business users like utility companies, farmers etc where they put some knobblier tyres on it and send it out to work.
The max articulation case is an extreme outlier to my mind, and most of the time the live axle defenders end up modded to hell to make them better anyway.
But yes, above all, tyres are the critical bit. As the range rover and discovery prove.
I think you make a good point. But let me counter. The max articulation case is an extreme outlier to my mind, and most of the time the live axle defenders end up modded to hell to make them better anyway.
But yes, above all, tyres are the critical bit. As the range rover and discovery prove.
The old Defender is to off roading what an Elise or Caterham is to track performance.
I mean who, for road use really needs a no windscreen Caterham cable of 0-60mph in 3’ish seconds with super adjustable suspension and no interior at all. And semi slick tyres. Nobody at all, none of it is needed to drive at 60mph legal speeds in the U.K. but people “want” it just because....
And for the few that take them on race circuits or even use them for competition. I suspect the majority of Lotus Elise’s sold have never been on a race track for instance.
Do you really need that divers watch rated at 100m or 500m? Even if the only diving you do is in 12 foot deep swimming pool???
Krikkit said:
One thing I would question is whether axle articulation is actually that important to even the bulk of its very serious users? Alright it matters at a pay&play day, but do the usual scenarios of rutted muddy fields really require all that much?
I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
Axle articulation is arguably the most important thing off road. Stability helps keep the wheels in contact with the ground. This promotes traction and more importantly less likelihood of roll overs. I'd say adjustable ride height for both comfort and load balancing, better road manners and good grip (all allowed with air suspension) would be more of a benefit.
My red Range Rover pictured has live axles and air suspension. The ride is very very good and it can adjust the ride height. But the air suspension still adds complexity and cost.
Independent suspension doesn’t exactly ride better. Its just hitting a pot hole tends to make only that wheel react rather than a shimmy through the entire vehicle. In a 4x4 the difference really isn’t that big and my live axle Range Rover road better than my independent suspension Impreza did over rough roads.
With vehciles like the Range Rover SVR and 500bhp independent suspension makes more sense. But IMO that isn’t what a Defender should be.
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