Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?

[Norfolkandchance]

Hi,

I am often surprised to see ordinary saloons with four wheel drive and I wonder what the buyer is looking to gain. I'm talking about 320d X drives, for example, but i see it on lots of (mostly German) saloons.

I can see an advantage if you live in somewhere hilly and cold, like the Yorkshire Dales or somewhere, but I don't. I live in Norfolk.

Modern cars have very good traction and stability systems, so 4WD isn't needed to prevent accidental spins exciting damp roundabouts.

The cars aren't particularity powerful. Its not like an M5 where the 4WD may well make it faster because they are traction limited.

They don't have raised ride height and are fitted with ordinary summer tyres so they wouldn't be much better at negotiating a rutted farm track or pulling a horse box out of a field.

So is there something I'm missing. Or have they just fallen for 30 years of marketing? Or is it they want reassurance for the few days per year when there is snow on the ground.

[Narcisus]

Yes. 4 driven wheels are better than 2. Sometimes. Other times maybe not. :-)

My last 2 cars had Haldex. I’ll not be rushing back to 2 wheel ....

[Bowlers]

X Drive BMW suspension always looks higher than RWD variants, so I'm not sure if they have better ground clearance or not?

My RWD 330d went a bit sideways off a roundabout the other week, it's more the torque in these that gets that back out of shape in damp/cold conditions. Personally I prefer it without, less weight and a bit more playful.

[rossub]

Bowlers said:

X Drive BMW suspension always looks higher than RWD variants, so I'm not sure if they have better ground clearance or not?

My RWD 330d went a bit sideways off a roundabout the other week, it's more the torque in these that gets that back out of shape in damp/cold conditions. Personally I prefer it without, less weight and a bit more playful.

Which is the exact reason other people want the added security of all wheel drive. It’s not just for snow. As you said, they can be tail happy in the wet. I wouldn’t enjoy rear wheel drive in the winter at all.

[Norfolkandchance]

rossub said:

Bowlers said:

X Drive BMW suspension always looks higher than RWD variants, so I'm not sure if they have better ground clearance or not?

My RWD 330d went a bit sideways off a roundabout the other week, it's more the torque in these that gets that back out of shape in damp/cold conditions. Personally I prefer it without, less weight and a bit more playful.

Which is the exact reason other people want the added security of all wheel drive. It’s not just for snow. As you said, they can be tail happy in the wet. I wouldn’t enjoy rear wheel drive in the winter at all.

Well, we are opposites then. I like tail happy cars. But I realise that some don't. I once sold an E30 325i to a journalist from Evo who crashed it, apparently due to its tail happyness, on a motorway slip road! However, I'm not talking about a 330d, I'm talking about a 320d. And Audis, where the alternative is FWD and therefore not tail happyness.

[J4CKO]

The more power you have in a RWD car, the less of if you can use in the wet, and with most BMW's, they are, on normal tyres, helpless if there is any snow.

I went from a TT with 4WD to an M135i, the TT could do full bore starts on snow, you could come off a roundabout in the wet and just aim and plant your foor, where the BMW goes a bit like Bambi on a frozen pond in comparison.

For a car you use all year round and do significant miles in, 4wd is the way to go, especially if you live anywhere snowier than average, hilly or a bit rural.

Failing that, get the right (Winter) tyres on any car and you are a lot better off, ultimate is winter tyres on something with 4WD, unstoppable, until of course you come across stranded BMW's across the road.

[TooMany2cvs]

Norfolkandchance said:

I can see an advantage if you live in somewhere hilly and cold, like the Yorkshire Dales or somewhere, but I don't. I live in Norfolk.

Tyres give at least as big an advantage.

Look at Scandinavia - most people drive around in a very similar mix of 2wd vanilla hatches to the UK.

[fido]

Even a lowly 320D has 280lbft of torque - about the same as a Subaru WRX - and you wouldn't question the AWD on that. Fat rear tyres on on modern saloons make 4WD even more relevant in winter conditions.

[catso]

Been an AWD convert for some time now, recently had a FWD Audi A4 2L diesel as a courtesy car, I don't know how much power/torque it had but it would scrabble for grip and torque steer dreadfully out of junctions even in the dry. Contrast that to my 4wd S4 with probably twice the power which has no such bad habits.

Also I can get up my steep drive when it's covered in snow, two big advantages for me.

I do like RWD cars in the right conditions but having been stuck both on my drive and the road approaching where I live, I would only entertain another BMW if it had x-drive.

[warch]

Norfolkandchance said:

They don't have raised ride height and are fitted with ordinary summer tyres so they wouldn't be much better at negotiating a rutted farm track or pulling a horse box out of a field.

My AWD Calibra Turbo was astonishingly good off road in occasional situations like a saturated field car park at a festival and driving across cultivated fields (legitimately as part of my job). It didn't even break traction. The ride height was never an issue if you avoided ruts as it would just ride on the top of the ground not dig in.

Weirdly although it was quite reassuring in snow or ice, it wasn't actually much better than 2wd insofar as you'd be going much faster when you did lose traction and did a four wheel slide off the road, luckily without damaging anything.

I agree that AWD isn't really necessary on sealed roads in most conditions.

[Ron99]

J4CKO said:

.....The more power you have in a RWD car, the less of if you can use in the wet.....

I went from a TT with 4WD to an M135i, the TT could do full bore starts on snow, you could come off a roundabout in the wet and just aim and plant your foor, where the BMW goes a bit like Bambi on a frozen pond in comparison......

I agree.
4wd gives more opportunities for full use of the power in a wider range of driving situations while maintaining a higher level of control over the car (no wheelspin, no torque steer, no fishtail).

[f1nn]

There are far too many variables too answer this, but the main one is of course increased traction, and having power and torque split away from one pair of driven wheels.

I appreciate both front and rear driven cars, with a slight bias towards rear wheel drive but some of the front drivers I’ve both owned and driven can be incredible.

I’ve only owned a few four wheel drive cars, and I can see why they would be of benefit to some, have always seemed not to add anything to the experience for me, sometimes feeling a bit clumsy and leaden in chassis response for my tastes.

I see that the “the rear wheel drive is useless in the winter” mob is already mobilising, but I’ve driven heavily turbocharged rear wheel drive cars with power outputs well in excess of 420bhp through winters without issue so I don’t subscribe to that theory in general, although yes, everyone’s car usage is different.

[otolith]

Look at which cars get stuck as soon as we get any snow. All well and good to say "well, I can drive a RWD saloon in snow", but clearly some cannot. Cheaper for them to get some appropriate tyres, but they're not doing that either.

[willmagrath]

fido said:

Even a lowly 320D has 280lbft of torque - about the same as a Subaru WRX - and you wouldn't question the AWD on that. Fat rear tyres on on modern saloons make 4WD even more relevant in winter conditions.

A friend has a new 318d and that has 265 section rears!!! Very grippy in summer but come winter. He'll hate it.

[Drive Blind]

The bad winters we had 7-8 years ago it was always BMW's that got stuck first

Now I know amongst the ph driving gods they would never get stuck but the reality with joe public was the opposite. A neighbours 1 series was dumped at the top of the road for 2 weeks during that period. "useless in the snow" was his reply when I asked him about it. They've never bought another BMW product.

Whether they are right or wrong that is joe publics view of BMW's. rwd = bad.

I'm guessing BMW know they have this image problem so we see an increase in x-drive models in the range.

[J4CKO]

otolith said:

Look at which cars get stuck as soon as we get any snow. All well and good to say "well, I can drive a RWD saloon in snow", but clearly some cannot. Cheaper for them to get some appropriate tyres, but they're not doing that either.

Our neighbour was thinking of selling their 520d a few years back due to her having some bad experiences in snow, I suggested a set of winters and to her credit she took it on board, read up on it and spent a fair few quid on a set of wheels and some winters, saw her driving to work quite happily during the bit of snow we had earlier this year, where before she was panicking if it even seemed like snow.

That isnt me by the way, all stuff gleaned off here, the message is getting through but the problem is, most folk dont have,

A grand or more for a set of extra wheels and tyres (that they want to spend)
Space to store them
Wherewithall to change four wheels and tyres themselves or cart them to someone who can

For the sake of a few days of snow, that generally gets cleared, well where we live it does.


We muddle through, my wife will just walk to work, she only goes int he car to go to the gym after work really as that isnt walkable, I will just either take our C1 or work from home, the latter is best as its less agro for me and one less car on the road for everybody else.

[anonymous-user]

I was thinking the same. I live in the sticks and fwd skinny tyres summers do well. I think people nowadays just want a more mollycoddled life that is why 4wd is so popular yet superfluous.

[vikingaero]

Norfolkandchance said:

Modern cars have very good traction and stability systems, so 4WD isn't needed to prevent accidental spins exciting damp roundabouts.

Don't know if you remember when BMW launched TC/ESP with double page spreads of a BMW on snow. It was st then and st now. Probably even more so as "performance" tyres these days are semi slicks and on 21" rimzz because Sportz sells.

[vikingaero]

otolith said:

Look at which cars get stuck as soon as we get any snow. All well and good to say "well, I can drive a RWD saloon in snow", but clearly some cannot. Cheaper for them to get some appropriate tyres, but they're not doing that either.

Thing is, your average PH Director can work from home when it snows and never actually goes out in his RWD car, but will keyboard claim they overcame the forces of nature, when in reality they swapped the cars around on the drive.

[PomBstard]

Just living somewhere hilly where it rains a lot can make you appreciate AWD. And on unsealed roads, of which there are a few once you leave the big cities here, it’s a bonus.

No, I don’t strictly need it, the other two cars on the drive are FWD and RWD and haven’t yet been stranded or caused a panic, but cross-country in all weathers, AWD is good to have, especially on the family truckster.