Advantages of 4WD on ordinary saloons?

[blade7]

Finlandia said:

Took some time, but we got there in the end. Any car on winter tyres is better than any other car on summer tyres when driving on ice and snow.

It took a lot less time to turn a thread about 4WD into one about tyres....

[gizlaroc]

downhillmalins said:

x-drive variants and the like have been common place on the continent for quite a while. Just have been less popular/ not available in the UK market till reasonably recently, last 5 years or so I'd say they have become popular here.

I remember seeing a battered old xdrive e46 in a french ski resort a while back and loads of them around Munich.

BMW was the biggest European manufacturer of AWD cars for years and years, 80s, 90's, 00's etc.
We were just oblivious to that fact as we never had them over here until the X range arrived.

[gizlaroc]

neil1jnr said:

I have 535d. It isn't the best drivers car, but does it's job well on the 90 mile a day commute. I'd prefer the diesel over a 535i if I am honest...but would prefer a 5 series over an equivalent A6 in the majority of cases. Imagine an A6 in comparison to the 5 series...

I went 535d to 335d to 335i.

I simply don't get why anyone would prefer the diesel, they feel the same, only difference is the petrol has a slightly bigger rev range, sounds nicer and a lot more refined (less difference cruising on a motorway).

The 335d was about 10-15% more economical though, but as an. overall cost it was about 2% saving, so not a deal breaker.

It was the fact the 335i was so diesel like that I swapped back to an M3.

Having said that, I would love another 535i now, but what I want from a car has changed a lot in 10 years.


I actually owned a 3.2fsi Quattro Avant with the M3, have to say I really liked it. I bought it silly cheap, 3 year old with 16k miles on it, with a huge spec and I paid £12500 for it from Audi Peterborough. This was the height of the recession.
I drove that for 2 years and 50k miles and got £14k for it.
Expectations were low, I was pleasantly surprised.

[neil1jnr]

gizlaroc said:

neil1jnr said:

I have 535d. It isn't the best drivers car, but does it's job well on the 90 mile a day commute. I'd prefer the diesel over a 535i if I am honest...but would prefer a 5 series over an equivalent A6 in the majority of cases. Imagine an A6 in comparison to the 5 series...

I went 535d to 335d to 335i.

I simply don't get why anyone would prefer the diesel, they feel the same, only difference is the petrol has a slightly bigger rev range, sounds nicer and a lot more refined (less difference cruising on a motorway).

The 335d was about 10-15% more economical though, but as an. overall cost it was about 2% saving, so not a deal breaker.

It was the fact the 335i was so diesel like that I swapped back to an M3.

Having said that, I would love another 535i now, but what I want from a car has changed a lot in 10 years.


I actually owned a 3.2fsi Quattro Avant with the M3, have to say I really liked it. I bought it silly cheap, 3 year old with 16k miles on it, with a huge spec and I paid £12500 for it from Audi Peterborough. This was the height of the recession.
I drove that for 2 years and 50k miles and got £14k for it.
Expectations were low, I was pleasantly surprised.

I like a change, spent 2 years with a 140 ecoboost Fiesta and it was fantastic small car, I just fancied something bigger and a bit more effortless. Before I considered an X35d engine car I honestly thought I'd never go back to a diesel, I dislike the smell and can't stand the noise (4 pots). I do 500-550 miles a week, so something ridiculous in fuel I just wouldn't be able to justify. I started reading about the infamous threads about DMS mapped 335d's and 535d's from 10-12 years ago and that got me interested in the engine. If it could do 30mpg then I'd be happy enough.

I couldn't find the right 3 series so I opted for a 535d located in Leeds (I live in North East Scotland). The owner had it the past 10 years, FSH, and in absolutely unbelievable condition compared to the other cars was interested in as it has been garaged all it's life. It had also ben mapped about 4 years ago and thankfully no hardware changes. The car is quick and torquey and is great for sitting in 6th and effortlessly overtaking. I put it on the dyno and it made a peak of 300bhp and has 480lb ft at 1500rpm, not bad for a 12 year old car.

I do prefer a petrol straight 6 BMW just for the noise as my dad had a few when I was young, but I honestly like the sound of this diesel, well from the inside anyway, still doesn't sound great on tick over and it seems quitter than 4 pot diesels I've owned. I have my laggy, old school and ridiculously quick P1 for the summer months, but I think I'd like to go down the NA route possibly next year for a toy, the E46 M3's are extremely appealing at the moment as I could get a good one and have a large amount of cash left over after selling the P1.

What M3 do you have at the moment? In regard to the A6, I've only driven a 13 plate (I think), it was a 2litre diesel s-line. Awful and forgettable car! My thoughts were the same when I drove an S5 V8, maybe the older cars are better to drive, similar to my thoughts on old BMW's vs new BMWs.

Edited by neil1jnr on Friday 19th October 13:51

[RobM77]

gizlaroc said:

I went 535d to 335d to 335i.

I simply don't get why anyone would prefer the diesel, they feel the same, only difference is the petrol has a slightly bigger rev range, sounds nicer and a lot more refined (less difference cruising on a motorway).

The 335d was about 10-15% more economical though, but as an. overall cost it was about 2% saving, so not a deal breaker.

It was the fact the 335i was so diesel like that I swapped back to an M3.

Having said that, I would love another 535i now, but what I want from a car has changed a lot in 10 years.


I actually owned a 3.2fsi Quattro Avant with the M3, have to say I really liked it. I bought it silly cheap, 3 year old with 16k miles on it, with a huge spec and I paid £12500 for it from Audi Peterborough. This was the height of the recession.
I drove that for 2 years and 50k miles and got £14k for it.
Expectations were low, I was pleasantly surprised.

1. For the smaller engines, there's a massive difference in economy. My Dad has an F30 320i and gets mpg in the mid 30s. I have a 320d ED and can get over 70 mpg on a run and average 60+. For me, that's a difference of several thousand pounds a year. For the bigger engines though, yes, you have a very good point, which just leaves '2':

2. BMW petrol engines have a lag at the top of the throttle pedal, and BMW diesels don't. I'm not the only one who finds this annoying, I know several people like me who chose diesels for this reason (I actually walked to work when I swapped my Z4C for a 320d, so economy wasn't a concern).

[mcpoot]

Nanook said:

Interesting that my post has been removed, as it's apparently been deemed as 'trolling', when I'd suggested that Legacys are dull to drive.

Hardly seems like the most troll-like post in the whole thread, especially with others appear to agree, and when it's based in actual experience of the thing I'm talking about, unlike so many posts in this thread

Poor show mods.

Seriously? That is ridiculous.

I'd agree a Legacy drives like a bigger, heavier and slower Impreza but when I bought my Spec-B Tourer I couldn't find anything that was built as well, looked as good and drove cross-country anywhere near as well. The engine lacks torque and in a straight line it's easy prey to V6 Audi diesels. Downside is you have to wring it's neck to get decent performance out of it, upside it sounds marvellous when you do. Turbo imports are a much faster beast but then they cost twice the price

[nickfrog]

RobM77 said:

2. BMW petrol engines have a lag at the top of the throttle pedal, and BMW diesels don't. I'm not the only one who finds this annoying, I know several people like me who chose diesels for this reason (I actually walked to work when I swapped my Z4C for a 320d, so economy wasn't a concern).

I have never experienced it and I am very sensitive to things like that. My last N52 certainly didn't have it, no lag, just instant response. I can't imagine anyone dowmgrading to a diesel for that reason, even if there was a lag. But at least you get 60mpg so not all bad.

[Pica-Pica]

nickfrog said:

RobM77 said:

2. BMW petrol engines have a lag at the top of the throttle pedal, and BMW diesels don't. I'm not the only one who finds this annoying, I know several people like me who chose diesels for this reason (I actually walked to work when I swapped my Z4C for a 320d, so economy wasn't a concern).

I have never experienced it and I am very sensitive to things like that. My last N52 certainly didn't have it, no lag, just instant response. I can't imagine anyone dowmgrading to a diesel for that reason, even if there was a lag. But at least you get 60mpg so not all bad.

With regards to lag, it depends on mode
Sports auto
in sport, no lag
In comfort, slightly more lag, but negligible
In cruise control, there is more lag
In speed limiter, kick down switch has to be activated to add fuel, so throttle pedal can be used as a footrest.
That all works out very nicely in practice.

[RobM77]

nickfrog said:

RobM77 said:

2. BMW petrol engines have a lag at the top of the throttle pedal, and BMW diesels don't. I'm not the only one who finds this annoying, I know several people like me who chose diesels for this reason (I actually walked to work when I swapped my Z4C for a 320d, so economy wasn't a concern).

I have never experienced it and I am very sensitive to things like that. My last N52 certainly didn't have it, no lag, just instant response. I can't imagine anyone dowmgrading to a diesel for that reason, even if there was a lag. But at least you get 60mpg so not all bad.

It was very clearly there on both my 330ci and Z4C. I've also test driven a few others: 135i, 335i and E46 M3 for example, and all had it.

[Pericoloso]

Nanook said:

Interesting that my post has been removed, as it's apparently been deemed as 'trolling', when I'd suggested that Legacys are dull to drive.

Hardly seems like the most troll-like post in the whole thread, especially with others appear to agree, and when it's based in actual experience of the thing I'm talking about, unlike so many posts in this thread

Poor show mods.

Subaru fanboy reported you.
Wonder who that was ......

[Finlandia]

blade7 said:

Finlandia said:

Took some time, but we got there in the end. Any car on winter tyres is better than any other car on summer tyres when driving on ice and snow.

It took a lot less time to turn a thread about 4WD into one about tyres....

Talking about traction and grip is bound to include the tyres as well, not only the layout of the car.

[rayyan171]

In our case it certainly is nice to have. The normal A6 is FWD which generally isn't a nice drive, so with the Quattro system they definitely handle better. We have an A6 C6 with the facelift, meaning that it has the updated version of the Torsen 4WD system, making it a permanent 4WD system and not an on-demand AWD system. With the 2009 revision, the split was changed to 40/60 front and rear, making it handle much better, which is important as the A6 likes to understeer, even with 4WD. The fact that it has the lighter supercharged V6, rather than the V8/V10, makes for an even better drive. To add to it all, the 4WD makes for an overall very quick car, with immediate power due to the supercharger. The engine and the 4WD system certainly work really well in this case, but on the rest of the A6s in rep mobile 2.0 TDI spec, the 4WD system will simply affect fuel economy. Good to have if you live in very cold areas however.

[gizlaroc]

neil1jnr said:

I like a change, spent 2 years with a 140 ecoboost Fiesta and it was fantastic small car, I just fancied something bigger and a bit more effortless. Before I considered an X35d engine car I honestly thought I'd never go back to a diesel, I dislike the smell and can't stand the noise (4 pots). I do 500-550 miles a week, so something ridiculous in fuel I just wouldn't be able to justify. I started reading about the infamous threads about DMS mapped 335d's and 535d's from 10-12 years ago and that got me interested in the engine. If it could do 30mpg then I'd be happy enough.

I couldn't find the right 3 series so I opted for a 535d located in Leeds (I live in North East Scotland). The owner had it the past 10 years, FSH, and in absolutely unbelievable condition compared to the other cars was interested in as it has been garaged all it's life. It had also ben mapped about 4 years ago and thankfully no hardware changes. The car is quick and torquey and is great for sitting in 6th and effortlessly overtaking. I put it on the dyno and it made a peak of 300bhp and has 480lb ft at 1500rpm, not bad for a 12 year old car.

I do prefer a petrol straight 6 BMW just for the noise as my dad had a few when I was young, but I honestly like the sound of this diesel, well from the inside anyway, still doesn't sound great on tick over and it seems quitter than 4 pot diesels I've owned. I have my laggy, old school and ridiculously quick P1 for the summer months, but I think I'd like to go down the NA route possibly next year for a toy, the E46 M3's are extremely appealing at the moment as I could get a good one and have a large amount of cash left over after selling the P1.

What M3 do you have at the moment? In regard to the A6, I've only driven a 13 plate (I think), it was a 2litre diesel s-line. Awful and forgettable car! My thoughts were the same when I drove an S5 V8, maybe the older cars are better to drive, similar to my thoughts on old BMW's vs new BMWs.

I don't, this was back in 2007 or something like that, I had the E46 M3, then the M3 CSL and the 535d sport touring, which was probably the best combo I have owned.

I decided I wanted a more exciting daily driver than the 535d, plus I was not using the CSL as much as I was always in the 535d, so I swapped both for an S4 avant which was truly shocking, I felt sick on the way home with it, it started sleeting so I took the last 20 miles on back roads to try and get myself all excited about the Quattro, I felt worse.
I swapped anti roll bars to try and dial out the understeer, put on a miltek exhaust but still hated it. It lasted about 6 weeks and I sold it.

I bought the 335i Touring, which to be fair was very good, but being a turbo just missed something, so I swapped that for another E46 M3 and the A6 avant.
That was a great combo too to be fair.
That was 8 years ago now though.


Currently have an old Mercedes ML that I use as a van, and love, it is my 4th W163 ML, bought the first one nearly new back in 2003, and an LCI 530d touring. The 530d is SE spec in deep sea blue with beige interior and old man wood trim and again I love that.

Neither are exciting cars, but I don't get why the BMW gets classed as boring, compared to many other marques that are meant to be sporty the BMW does many things very well.

[gizlaroc]

RobM77 said:

1. For the smaller engines, there's a massive difference in economy. My Dad has an F30 320i and gets mpg in the mid 30s. I have a 320d ED and can get over 70 mpg on a run and average 60+. For me, that's a difference of several thousand pounds a year. For the bigger engines though, yes, you have a very good point.

A very good mate of mine swapped his early F1 320d auto for a 320i Auto and he is not seeing anywhere near that difference.
He was averaging 46mpg calculated from the 320d and after 12 months with the 320i it is averaging 39mpg calculated.

I had a 328i for a week when Fiona's X3 was in for some work and that returned amazing MPG, it was showing 41mpg average and after a reset and two days and 500 miles on longer runs it was averaging over 50mpg.

You sure your Dad does the same runs as you?
if you had his car maybe the difference would not be anywhere near as big?

[RobM77]

gizlaroc said:

RobM77 said:

1. For the smaller engines, there's a massive difference in economy. My Dad has an F30 320i and gets mpg in the mid 30s. I have a 320d ED and can get over 70 mpg on a run and average 60+. For me, that's a difference of several thousand pounds a year. For the bigger engines though, yes, you have a very good point.

A very good mate of mine swapped his early F1 320d auto for a 320i Auto and he is not seeing anywhere near that difference.
He was averaging 46mpg calculated from the 320d and after 12 months with the 320i it is averaging 39mpg calculated.

I had a 328i for a week when Fiona's X3 was in for some work and that returned amazing MPG, it was showing 41mpg average and after a reset and two days and 500 miles on longer runs it was averaging over 50mpg.

You sure your Dad does the same runs as you?
if you had his car maybe the difference would not be anywhere near as big?

We drive on similar roads, but I suspect that driving style has a lot to do with it. My enthusiasm for corners and tendency to look ahead a long way means I don't really slow down that much, which of course means I don't accelerate that much either. What I would say though is that even with the same driving, I very much doubt a 320i is ever going to average 60+, or even 50+, so my point remains that it's a bigger difference than people report with the bigger engine models.

[anonymous-user]

RobM77 said:

It was very clearly there on both my 330ci and Z4C. I've also test driven a few others: 135i, 335i and E46 M3 for example, and all had it.

My 130i had it for sure.

[tonyb1968]

ericmcn said:

nickfrog said:

Eric, thanks for posting this, I am so glad we got there in the end, however many pages it took, it would have been worth it

Now, will you need another 30 odd pages to look into the traction circle ?

its pretty common knowledge, however without winter tyres a AWD still handles better in all conditions over a FWD/RDW with similar tyres, if you put on snow tyres, well then its in a different league entirely to navigate snow and ice

Incorrect but hey, you still need to figure out where the AWD benefits and where it doesn't, hence the question above is actually a false statement.

[Caddyshack]

A lot of 4wd cars handle worse due to all the extra weight you are lugging around, especially the front axle / diff. Many people thought Scoobies cornered better as the were 4wd but they understeer like pigs on many track days. The 4wd does not make it corner better, it just gives better traction out of the bend. The 4 contact patches are just that, driving that tyre doesn’t make it corner better, but it can make it handle worse if it is on it’s limit of slip and then you add some torque to it and overcome the tyre.

[blade7]

Finlandia said:

blade7 said:

Finlandia said:

Took some time, but we got there in the end. Any car on winter tyres is better than any other car on summer tyres when driving on ice and snow.

It took a lot less time to turn a thread about 4WD into one about tyres....

Talking about traction and grip is bound to include the tyres as well, not only the layout of the car.

In a location where the majority would probably benefit from winter tyres for less than a month each year?

[RobM77]

Caddyshack said:

A lot of 4wd cars handle worse due to all the extra weight you are lugging around, especially the front axle / diff. Many people thought Scoobies cornered better as the were 4wd but they understeer like pigs on many track days. The 4wd does not make it corner better, it just gives better traction out of the bend. The 4 contact patches are just that, driving that tyre doesn’t make it corner better, but it can make it handle worse if it is on it’s limit of slip and then you add some torque to it and overcome the tyre.

As I mentioned earlier, the other issue, which was unknown to me until I read an interview with a BMW engineer, is that packaging constraints prevent an optimum width of front tyre. That's according to this engineer anyway.