RE: VW Up GTI v Mazda 2 GT Sport v Suzuki Swift Sport
Discussion
xu5 said:
underphil said:
xu5 said:
While The 1.5 MX5 engine is based on the Mazda 2's there are a few more differences. From what I remember these include lighter pistons and con rods, stronger crank shaft, different cams and inlet manifold. I think the cylinder head is modified too.
The 1.5 MX5 can get to 155-160 bhp with a decent map.
I think to get much over 130 hp out of the Mazda 2 you may need to make some mechanical alterations.
where did you get that info on the differences? - I've not heard of those beforeThe 1.5 MX5 can get to 155-160 bhp with a decent map.
I think to get much over 130 hp out of the Mazda 2 you may need to make some mechanical alterations.
the 2.0 engines in the mx-5 and Mazda3 are the same (apart from the pistons as the Mazda3 has a 14:1 comp ratio vs 13:1 for the mx-5)
ok yes - I think I've found it
will be interesting to know what gains are to be had on the 115 engine as they are huge (+20) on the 131 version. Even 135bhp with a 7000rpm redline would be decent in a car that light
Will be looking to replace Mrs Dawg's ageing Punto at some point in the near future.
We've already discounted the Up as a friend of hers has one and she thinks it's too tiny. I'm also not a fan of VWs 3 pot engines either. Everyone praises the "eager thrum" in road tests but to me they sound like one of the plug leads has fallen off.
Like the Swift though, looked at the previous one a few years back and rather liked it, a "more grown up" version appeals.
But that Mazda looks just the job to me. Bonus points for the interior being styled to look like the MX5 too so it looks uncannily like the one in my 124 Spider. This wasn't on the radar before but it is now.
Will pop round to the Mazda dealer and take a look.
We've already discounted the Up as a friend of hers has one and she thinks it's too tiny. I'm also not a fan of VWs 3 pot engines either. Everyone praises the "eager thrum" in road tests but to me they sound like one of the plug leads has fallen off.
Like the Swift though, looked at the previous one a few years back and rather liked it, a "more grown up" version appeals.
But that Mazda looks just the job to me. Bonus points for the interior being styled to look like the MX5 too so it looks uncannily like the one in my 124 Spider. This wasn't on the radar before but it is now.
Will pop round to the Mazda dealer and take a look.
Ron99 said:
What turned you against those engines?
Drinking oil, one cylinder kept shutting off (made for an interesting drive home and makes it the most unreliable daily driver I've owned), stretchy timing chain, very ticky sounding engine, only car I have ever owned that needed a tap on the throttle to start it. The max RPM was disappointing. I can't remember what it was exactly, but I think it was 6000 or even slightly under.The oil consumption and the timing belt stretching are quite common problems with these engines I read, though until I suffered these problems myself I thought it was limited to the bigger, more powerful versions.
The fuel lines rattled against the bulkhead really loudly. SEAT's design to stop this happening was to stuff a sponge down the fuel line conduit. I ended up keeping some long handled tweezers/tong things in the car to adjust the sponge with every few weeks. The spark plugs were ridiculously expensive at £55 for four from a non-SEAT garage. The exhaust gas recirculation valve had to be replaced after me spending weeks wondering if I was the car trying to gas me or if it was just fumes coming in from traffic.
Whilst I'm having a moan about the car in general, I've also never had a car where if you go round a corner whilst it is raining and you have a window open a crack, the water runs straight off the roof and inside the car. The drivers seat stopped sliding forward for rear passenger access. The handles to move the seats forward also had the embarrassing habit of coming off in your passengers hand when they tried to get in. The ride was far too stiff for comfort and the gearbox felt vague.
The radio presets weren't buttons on the front of the radio, you had to access them through a menu and turn a dial to select your radio station. This was the same knob that changes the volume and if you accidentally touch the volume knob whist reaching for the menu button, the radio freezes up for a few seconds. This is surprisingly annoying!
If you accidentally touch the phone voice control (easy to do as it's on the end of a stalk) it interrupts the radio and you cant cancel it. You have to sit in silence for about 30 seconds whist it tells you what you can say to it as there is no way to cancel it. Also there is no way to permanently disable the eco start stop. I stopped using it due to the problems starting.
It really did have that lovely go cart feel, but that was the only good thing about the car. Here she is the day I bought her.
Edited by AlexC1981 on Tuesday 16th October 22:30
I like the Up Gti, but must admit that past memories of less than stellar reliability from a VAG product (Seat Leon Cupra in my case) still rankles and made you feel like part of the R&D process.
The Gti badge and those check cloth seats are appealing on the Up, but being stranded by common, known, unresolved engineering failures aren't.
It's been a long time since everything in life was as reliable as a Golf.....
The Gti badge and those check cloth seats are appealing on the Up, but being stranded by common, known, unresolved engineering failures aren't.
It's been a long time since everything in life was as reliable as a Golf.....
I know Mazda dropped the MPSs long ago (why? Every other manufacturer has a hot hatch, surely there's room in the market), but the mock ups and photoshops of a potential 2MPS that were doing the rounds when the current 2 first came out looked good... And a turbo /170-odd bhp 2 would be a very attractive prospect.
Edited by mr2aw11 on Wednesday 17th October 10:39
Nearly new v new isn't a fair comparison, but I've found a few 2017 Mazda 2 GT Sports on Autotrader for around £12,500.
Only 4-4,500 miles. So definitely not a car to buy brand new!
Interesting VAG debate. I owned a Passat for 4 years... fundamentally a well built car but so many electrical niggles. Also had the dreaded oil sump issue on my 1.8T which nearly killed the engine. Sold for a similar mileage petrol Mazda 6 which I took to same mileage (130K) with only one failure (the air-condition compressor fell off!!). Never had an engine management light come on my Mazda 6..... The number of VAG cars on Autotrader in the "over 200,000 mile" section suggests they are capable of big miles, but it seems you either get a really good one, or a bad one.
The 2 is a criminally overlooked car - or, perhaps, it isn't, and I just don't notice how many of them you actually see on the road.
The GT Sport 2 is one heck of a package - a real quality feel to the interior, tons of kit thrown in, zingy N/A engine, sharp gearbox...it's also great value for money when you run the numbers.
I'm seriously tempted.
The GT Sport 2 is one heck of a package - a real quality feel to the interior, tons of kit thrown in, zingy N/A engine, sharp gearbox...it's also great value for money when you run the numbers.
I'm seriously tempted.
underphil said:
that sounds good as you get the performance but with the added bonus of a much nicer interior, way better mpg and quite a bit more space
Interior quality isn't great on the Sport, but if the Mazda could return much better mileage I would be very impressed. I rarely dip under 45mpg on my Sport, and 50mpg is not difficult if you drive carefully.mr2aw11 said:
I know Mazda dropped the MPSs long ago (why? Every other manufacturer has a hot hatch, surely there's room in the market), but the mock ups and photoshops of a potential 2MPS that were doing the rounds when the current 2 first came out looked good... And a turbo /170-odd bhp 2 would be a very attractive prospect.
It must be emissions quotas. I have never really understood why Honda have never done a Jazz sports hatch and, when changing my car, recently, what I really wanted was a last gen Honda Civic with about 200hp but they jump from a boring 140hp 1.8 to the expensive 305hp Type R - which is still pricey and only has 2 seat belts in the back. I bought another Fiesta ST.AlexC1981 said:
Drinking oil, one cylinder kept shutting off (made for an interesting drive home and makes it the most unreliable daily driver I've owned), stretchy timing chain, very ticky sounding engine, only car I have ever owned that needed a tap on the throttle to start it. The max RPM was disappointing. I can't remember what it was exactly, but I think it was 6000 or even slightly under.
The oil consumption and the timing belt stretching are quite common problems with these engines I read, though until I suffered these problems myself I thought it was limited to the bigger, more powerful versions.
The fuel lines rattled against the bulkhead really loudly. SEAT's design to stop this happening was to stuff a sponge down the fuel line conduit. I ended up keeping some long handled tweezers/tong things in the car to adjust the sponge with every few weeks. The spark plugs were ridiculously expensive at £55 for four from a non-SEAT garage. The exhaust gas recirculation valve had to be replaced after me spending weeks wondering if I was the car trying to gas me or if it was just fumes coming in from traffic.
Whilst I'm having a moan about the car in general, I've also never had a car where if you go round a corner whilst it is raining and you have a window open a crack, the water runs straight off the roof and inside the car. The drivers seat stopped sliding forward for rear passenger access. The handles to move the seats forward also had the embarrassing habit of coming off in your passengers hand when they tried to get in. The ride was far too stiff for comfort and the gearbox felt vague.
The radio presets weren't buttons on the front of the radio, you had to access them through a menu and turn a dial to select your radio station. This was the same knob that changes the volume and if you accidentally touch the volume knob whist reaching for the menu button, the radio freezes up for a few seconds. This is surprisingly annoying!
If you accidentally touch the phone voice control (easy to do as it's on the end of a stalk) it interrupts the radio and you cant cancel it. You have to sit in silence for about 30 seconds whist it tells you what you can say to it as there is no way to cancel it. Also there is no way to permanently disable the eco start stop. I stopped using it due to the problems starting.
It really did have that lovely go cart feel, but that was the only good thing about the car. Here she is the day I bought her.
Hi Alex. I'm sorry to hear about the issues that you had with your Ibiza. I remember your thread now and that you put a lot of research into that purchase and seemed to have ended up with a sharp-looking car at a good price. I can empathise, as around about the same time I had recently bought a 2013 1.8 petrol Civic. I'm a fan of Japanese engineering and reliability and had been a fan of the Civic since the 90s for its sporty nature and VTEC engines. I did my research and also looked at several different options and on paper this was the "best", most sensible one i.e. newest, still under warranty, low kms, nice spec (alloys, climate, sunroof, heated seats etc). However, I only kept the car for 18 months and absolutely hated it! It wasn't a bad car per se but it developed a number of recurring electrical faults that kept pinging up warning lights, needed some engine sensors replaced (fortunately under warranty), had a horrible hard plastic interior that rattled incessantly and latterly developed a shimmy that my local Honda dealership were either incapable of or unwilling to remedy. Contrary to popular belief, the Honda dealership were terrible (much worse than the Fiat and VW dealers that I have dealt with) and bearing in mind I was a fair distance away, never offered me an appointment time that was convenient to me (how about 2pm on a Wednesday afternoon sir?) or had a courtesy car available for me to borrow. The 1.8 litre engine was also thirsty and gutless and the steering totally devoid of any feel, in fact it felt like I was permanently driving on ice, hardly confidence-inspiring! All this and I was making a fairly substantial monthly payment for a car that I didn't really like! The only thing good that I can say about it was that it looked fairly sporty, had a decent ride and an excellent gearchange.The oil consumption and the timing belt stretching are quite common problems with these engines I read, though until I suffered these problems myself I thought it was limited to the bigger, more powerful versions.
The fuel lines rattled against the bulkhead really loudly. SEAT's design to stop this happening was to stuff a sponge down the fuel line conduit. I ended up keeping some long handled tweezers/tong things in the car to adjust the sponge with every few weeks. The spark plugs were ridiculously expensive at £55 for four from a non-SEAT garage. The exhaust gas recirculation valve had to be replaced after me spending weeks wondering if I was the car trying to gas me or if it was just fumes coming in from traffic.
Whilst I'm having a moan about the car in general, I've also never had a car where if you go round a corner whilst it is raining and you have a window open a crack, the water runs straight off the roof and inside the car. The drivers seat stopped sliding forward for rear passenger access. The handles to move the seats forward also had the embarrassing habit of coming off in your passengers hand when they tried to get in. The ride was far too stiff for comfort and the gearbox felt vague.
The radio presets weren't buttons on the front of the radio, you had to access them through a menu and turn a dial to select your radio station. This was the same knob that changes the volume and if you accidentally touch the volume knob whist reaching for the menu button, the radio freezes up for a few seconds. This is surprisingly annoying!
If you accidentally touch the phone voice control (easy to do as it's on the end of a stalk) it interrupts the radio and you cant cancel it. You have to sit in silence for about 30 seconds whist it tells you what you can say to it as there is no way to cancel it. Also there is no way to permanently disable the eco start stop. I stopped using it due to the problems starting.
It really did have that lovely go cart feel, but that was the only good thing about the car. Here she is the day I bought her.
Edited by AlexC1981 on Tuesday 16th October 22:30
Fortunately, the heart not the head purchase, a nice example of an R56 MINI Cooper, a car that I had considered when I had got the Civic but bottled out of due to reliability concerns came up locally and I was able to get back what I owed on the Civic and substantially reduce my monthly payments in the process. Like you, I had hankered after something reminiscent of my much loved and dearly departed 205 GTi that I owned back in the early 2000s and this is definitely the closest "modern" car that I have driven to replicating that experience with some welcome added safety and refinement. Sure, it's not that quick or practical and rides very firmly but the interior is well screwed together and feels very unique and the gearing makes it feel zippy enough and with a 6th gear to quieten it down for the motorway and an average of 47mpg. The handling, solid feel and control weights is what I love the most. Touchwood over 2 years and 20,000 miles, it has also been as reliable, if not more so than the Civic. Part of me wonders whether this is partly down to the inherent simplicity of an NA engine, as many MCS owners don't seem to have been so lucky with relaibility.
It seems that many of these high specific power and low displacement turbocharged engines seem to be having long-term reliability issues. On the bright side, at least you didn't have a Fiesta Ecoboost with the coolant or catching fire issues! This is disappointing, as I and my company ran new VWs between 2004 and 2008 and had very few major reliability issues. I remember one engine failure of the troublesome twin turbocharged and supercharged 1.4 TSI in the mk5 Golf, one failure of an early DSG transmission and that's about it over a large sample size of cars. Me and my family mostly ran TDI Polos/Golfs (the old PD engines) and agricultural though it was, my last new VW, a 2008 Polo 1.4 TDI was extremely economical and reliable over 3 years, 30,000 miles.
Not had much contact with VAG cars since then but interestingly, I have had a couple of friends who have had multiple electrical issues (and leaks) with a mk1 Leon and an Altea FR. They both now drive Fords. I'm not sure whether this is because SEATs are less reliable (I don't see why, same hardware?) or are SEAT dealers just less adept at fixing issues? Shame, as I find the Ibiza/Leon a bit more stylish than the equivalent Polo/Golf. I was quite impressed with the performance and economy of that engine (1.2 TSI) in a Golf rental that I had for 3 weeks but that's hardly a long-term test. The 1.2 Puretech in my mum's C3 Picasso seems to be holding up OK after 2 years...
A small, turbocharged warm/hot hatch like the Up GTi/Fiesta ST does still appeal to me but I'm thinking I might like something with a straight 6/V8 next whilst I still have that option. What did you replace your Ibiza with?
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 17th October 20:42
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 17th October 22:17
white_goodman said:
Fortunately, the heart not the head purchase, a nice example of an R56 MINI Cooper, a car that I had considered when I had got the Civic but bottled out of due to reliability concerns came up locally and I was able to get back what I owed on the Civic and substantially reduce my monthly payments in the process. Like you, I had hankered after something reminiscent of my much loved and dearly departed 205 GTi that I owned back in the early 2000s and this is definitely the closest "modern" car that I have driven to replicating that experience with some welcome added safety and refinement. Sure, it's not that quick or practical and rides very firmly but the interior is well screwed together and feels very unique and the gearing makes it feel zippy enough and with a 6th gear to quieten it down for the motorway and an average of 47mpg. The handling, solid feel and control weights is what I love the most. Touchwood over 2 years and 20,000 miles, it has also been as reliable, if not more so than the Civic. Part of me wonders whether this is partly down to the inherent simplicity of an NA engine, as many MCS owners don't seem to have been so lucky with relaibility.
It seems that many of these high specific power and low displacement turbocharged engines seem to be having long-term reliability issues.
yet the mini is 1.6, not 1.0/1.2. i wonder whether the Mini's issue is more that the engine bay is very tight. heat has nowhere to go. that and the Mini cooling system is a weak point anyway, before FI.It seems that many of these high specific power and low displacement turbocharged engines seem to be having long-term reliability issues.
Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 17th October 20:42
CABC said:
yet the mini is 1.6, not 1.0/1.2. i wonder whether the Mini's issue is more that the engine bay is very tight. heat has nowhere to go. that and the Mini cooling system is a weak point anyway, before FI.
As I said, I haven't had any cooling issues with mine in 2 years/20,000 miles. I was more worried about the coking issues, excessive oil use and stretched timing chains that some have reported. I think it's an engine also found in some Peugeots and Citroens (207/DS3)? A turbo naturally puts the engine under more pressure and usually runs hotter. I'm not sure to what degree that bonnet scoop aids cooling on the Cooper S but maybe it's there more to get air into the turbo? I wouldn't say the engine bay was particularly crammed full on my NA Cooper though.white_goodman said:
What did you replace your Ibiza with?
Hello Edited by white_goodman on Wednesday 17th October 20:42
, things don't always work out do they! I went back to diesel as it makes sense for the mileage that I'm doing and the Ibiza never got close to the promised 55mpg.I'm driving a Megane 1.6 dci 130bhp. The turbo lag is terrible and the brakes always give you that impression they aren't going to stop the car but they do when you panic and push a bit harder
It's the first car I have owned apart from my very first car that does not have the sports suspension option and I have to say, I'm glad it doesn't. It's actually really nice to have a car with a soft ride for once and I can't complain about how it corners other than it feels a bit boring. It's better to drive than the Laguna GT I had prior to the Ibiza though.The bhp/tonne is only about 5% better than the Ibiza, but the torque makes it feel like a rocket by comparison. This is nice at times but I miss the high rev gear changes that were needed in the Ibiza to make progress at a reasonable pace.
I've wanted to try a Japanese car for years. It's a shame Nissan won't do a performance version of the Micra. The new model looks pretty smart, but Nissan seem determined to keep it as a grannys car. The slowest version does 0-60 in 16.4 seconds, which seems ludicrous. I'm glad the MINI is working out for you. I might look that way again next time.
AlexC1981 said:
Hello , things don't always work out do they! I went back to diesel as it makes sense for the mileage that I'm doing and the Ibiza never got close to the promised 55mpg.
I'm driving a Megane 1.6 dci 130bhp. The turbo lag is terrible and the brakes always give you that impression they aren't going to stop the car but they do when you panic and push a bit harder It's the first car I have owned apart from my very first car that does not have the sports suspension option and I have to say, I'm glad it doesn't. It's actually really nice to have a car with a soft ride for once and I can't complain about how it corners other than it feels a bit boring. It's better to drive than the Laguna GT I had prior to the Ibiza though.
The bhp/tonne is only about 5% better than the Ibiza, but the torque makes it feel like a rocket by comparison. This is nice at times but I miss the high rev gear changes that were needed in the Ibiza to make progress at a reasonable pace.
I've wanted to try a Japanese car for years. It's a shame Nissan won't do a performance version of the Micra. The new model looks pretty smart, but Nissan seem determined to keep it as a grannys car. The slowest version does 0-60 in 16.4 seconds, which seems ludicrous. I'm glad the MINI is working out for you. I might look that way again next time.
Well I think that we've both proved that you can suffer reliability issues with supposedly "reliable" brands (Honda/VAG) and decent reliability from brands not known for their reliability (Fiat/MINI/Renault)! I think that I might have been a bit unlucky with my Civic, as I know several other people with Hondas and they have been as reliable as one would expect. Toyota even better from firsthand experience. Too bad that most of their vehicles are pretty dull!, things don't always work out do they! I went back to diesel as it makes sense for the mileage that I'm doing and the Ibiza never got close to the promised 55mpg.I'm driving a Megane 1.6 dci 130bhp. The turbo lag is terrible and the brakes always give you that impression they aren't going to stop the car but they do when you panic and push a bit harder
It's the first car I have owned apart from my very first car that does not have the sports suspension option and I have to say, I'm glad it doesn't. It's actually really nice to have a car with a soft ride for once and I can't complain about how it corners other than it feels a bit boring. It's better to drive than the Laguna GT I had prior to the Ibiza though.The bhp/tonne is only about 5% better than the Ibiza, but the torque makes it feel like a rocket by comparison. This is nice at times but I miss the high rev gear changes that were needed in the Ibiza to make progress at a reasonable pace.
I've wanted to try a Japanese car for years. It's a shame Nissan won't do a performance version of the Micra. The new model looks pretty smart, but Nissan seem determined to keep it as a grannys car. The slowest version does 0-60 in 16.4 seconds, which seems ludicrous. I'm glad the MINI is working out for you. I might look that way again next time.
Yeah, the new Micra looks pretty sharp but they've never really offered a "hot" version. I remember there was a Micra 160 back in the day that looked fairly "sharp" but disappointingly the 160 meant it had a 1.6 litre engine, not 160bhp! I think that you'll find that the new Micra is basically the same car as the Renault Clio underneath, so perhaps may not have the legendary reliability of the Micra but on a par with a modern Renault, which is probably actually pretty good! I think that you can get a slightly more powerful 1.2 turbo (120bhp?) in the Clio than you can get in the Micra (90bhp?) and of course the RS model but would have to put up with that stupid transmission! If you want a small, sportyish Jap car, the Mazda 2 and Suzuki Swift, even the lesser Boosterjet version are probably your best bets and I imagine that Mazda and Suzuki would both have done the engineering properly! I also wouldn't discount a Hyundai/Kia, as by all accounts they're right up there now with the Jap manufacturers in terms of reliability. I would buy one but sadly not much appeals to me this side of an i30N/Kia Stinger. Kia Pro'Ceed GT maybe? If you still fancy a fun, warmish hatch, I would still recommend the MINI Cooper and Fiat 500 from firsthand experience. The Fiat was still fun but the MINI handles and steers a lot better in my opinion.
A torquey diesel's not so bad for the daily commute though. Probably the best commuter car that I have ever had was a company mk5 Golf GT TDI (140). It shared garage space with a Corrado VR6 but honestly, even taking fuel economy out of the equation, I preferred driving the Golf day-to-day because it was so much more comfortable and effortless than the VR6. I have a bit of an aversion to Renaults due to a piss poor Renault 21 that my dad owned in the early 90s and a friend who owned three mk2 Laguna diesels in succession that caused him nothing but trouble. To be fair, the first one didn't break. He had a fairly major crash in it and walked away, so I understand why he bought another but numbers 2 and 3 were simply dire reliability-wise, as were the early 2000s Meganes and Scenics from my experience of working in the motor trade in the early 2000s. He now drives a Jaguar X-Type diesel and loves it! Supposedly, Renault make a pretty decent car these days though and by all accounts, more reliable than anything from VAG!
The Laguna I had before the Ibiza had its fair share of niggles, but I think Renault make some solid diesel engines these days.
I just found out the London Ultra Low Emission Zone gets extended to the North and South Circular Roads in 3 years time, so I may well be going back to a small petrol car eventually.
I just found out the London Ultra Low Emission Zone gets extended to the North and South Circular Roads in 3 years time, so I may well be going back to a small petrol car eventually.
No, don't buy the Mazda!
Has a long running reputation for having weak track rod ends (everything else is apparently solid though - must be fake news).
It has curves where modern car should be square shaped like a 70s Tonka toy (have a look at a real one, you won't like it).
It is expensive (but it feels expensive to sit in and drive - surely not what anyone wants).
It is rare so must be rubbish and uncool.
I like uncommon cars and if more people discover that the Mazda 2 is a very good all rounder, mine won't be so rare. If you still go and buy one, please don't get it in that striking red metallic
Has a long running reputation for having weak track rod ends (everything else is apparently solid though - must be fake news).
It has curves where modern car should be square shaped like a 70s Tonka toy (have a look at a real one, you won't like it).
It is expensive (but it feels expensive to sit in and drive - surely not what anyone wants).
It is rare so must be rubbish and uncool.
I like uncommon cars and if more people discover that the Mazda 2 is a very good all rounder, mine won't be so rare. If you still go and buy one, please don't get it in that striking red metallic
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff