RE: Porsche 911 Carrera (996): Spotted
Discussion
Paddy_N_Murphy said:
I agree with the principle of your maths - but the reality is, the running costs of (I agree more than 1k) the car, the MPG and the knock on values of 'mileage use' does not make these any better
So buy a car that's already leggy...the 'market adjustment' then works in your favour as the seller is taking the hit.My NSX was on 90k when I bought it...now something like 125k. At this point it doesn't matter if I put 5k more on the car or 50k more on the car...
(Plus I'm not sure your mileage logic works for proper classics, as the 996 now is, not once you're past 'investment grade' or ultra-low miles.)
MPG / running costs
- MPG agreed, but hell, the difference between 25mpg and 35mpg is about £60-70 every 1,000 miles - not that big a deal
- Running costs (excluding age-related maintenance, which is where the £1-2k fund comes in) - same whether an old or new car...in fact the older car may well be cheaper as the tyres and brakes are going to be smaller, and quality parts are more likely to be available via the aftermarket not just the OEM.
If it's a daily driver then an older, leggy car may fall into the category of 'brave move', but otherwise...
I don't get the appeal of old 911's.
I couldn't get excited opening up my garage door of a weekend to look at this, nor could I at the thought of driving it - you'd get much the same from a £5k Boxster. People must just be buying these as an investment but where's the fun in that.
If I had £13k to throw at a second car my money would go on a TVR (garage appeal), Elise (driving appeal) or an E46 M3 (garage & driving appeal).
I couldn't get excited opening up my garage door of a weekend to look at this, nor could I at the thought of driving it - you'd get much the same from a £5k Boxster. People must just be buying these as an investment but where's the fun in that.
If I had £13k to throw at a second car my money would go on a TVR (garage appeal), Elise (driving appeal) or an E46 M3 (garage & driving appeal).
big_rob_sydney said:
Okay so this is an opinion (yeah, and we know the old story about those), but my view is that this car, from the sounds of it, has been an absolute money pit.
One person's money pit is another's cherished motor.911 engines are known for their possibility to go pop, so that this has done that and been fixed is definitely a good thing vs one that hasn't.
Clutch/flywheel - the car's done >100k, I'd hope it'd have had a clutch replacement otherwise as a buyer I'd need to budget for one.
Suspension - this really should be considered wear and tear on a higher-mileage car, so a diligent buyer (and on a car like this you'd want to be) would be planning for replacements anyway.
The other stuff is either maintenance (water pump) or age-related "while there's access" changes (brake lines).
Seriously - to me this looks like a car that's had a diligent owner, rather than one that's tried to do the bare minimum. If I had a spare £13k and space on the drive I'd be quite tempted, despite it being silver (probably my least favourite car colour).
big_rob_sydney said:
Okay so this is an opinion (yeah, and we know the old story about those), but my view is that this car, from the sounds of it, has been an absolute money pit. I'd be wary, simply because, if so many things have gone wrong with it, whose to say nothing else will? On the basis of the evidence so far, it seems to have been a pretty poorly screwed together car from the manufacturer, and my expectation is that more will go wrong.
Added to that, it's an old car, with a lot of miles on it. Not exactly a recipe for long term reliability in my opinion (although a guy who drives a Lexus which has had zero spent on it in 5 years barring consumables probably would focus on reliability, granted).
Thank you for your valuable product knowledge and technical input, Herr Kussmaul.Added to that, it's an old car, with a lot of miles on it. Not exactly a recipe for long term reliability in my opinion (although a guy who drives a Lexus which has had zero spent on it in 5 years barring consumables probably would focus on reliability, granted).
As someone who despises Porsches especially the 911, I actually think this is the best looking 911. Why?........because it doesn't have the ugly and retro front round lights. It must be a Porsche thing for the 911 fans to constantly berate the front lights of the 996.
The rear and side profile is however are still awful so not much of an improvement overall.
The rear and side profile is however are still awful so not much of an improvement overall.
Ahonen said:
big_rob_sydney said:
Okay so this is an opinion (yeah, and we know the old story about those), but my view is that this car, from the sounds of it, has been an absolute money pit. I'd be wary, simply because, if so many things have gone wrong with it, whose to say nothing else will? On the basis of the evidence so far, it seems to have been a pretty poorly screwed together car from the manufacturer, and my expectation is that more will go wrong.
Added to that, it's an old car, with a lot of miles on it. Not exactly a recipe for long term reliability in my opinion (although a guy who drives a Lexus which has had zero spent on it in 5 years barring consumables probably would focus on reliability, granted).
Thank you for your valuable product knowledge and technical input, Herr Kussmaul.Added to that, it's an old car, with a lot of miles on it. Not exactly a recipe for long term reliability in my opinion (although a guy who drives a Lexus which has had zero spent on it in 5 years barring consumables probably would focus on reliability, granted).
A. This is a discussion on product knowledge and technical input, or
B. This is an opinion.
For the slow people in the class, try to keep up.
And name dropping does you no favours in sad attempts to look clever. Try to read before posting.
havoc said:
big_rob_sydney said:
Okay so this is an opinion (yeah, and we know the old story about those), but my view is that this car, from the sounds of it, has been an absolute money pit.
One person's money pit is another's cherished motor.Seriously - to me this looks like a car that's had a diligent owner, rather than one that's tried to do the bare minimum.
'Oh I'll buy this other car that's all-original and had nothing replaced' said no sane car buyer, ever.
Compare this 996 to similar cars from the same period with these miles, and see how many can get close to these running costs, assuming that many are actually still running.
Isnt half the problem with Porsches that everyone bangs on about how usable they are and how well built. When in reality, they are probably more reliable etc than an Italian exotic but get compared to Golfs. Really, most other manufacturers would have been lambasted for the IMS & Bore Scoring issues.
This is a 20 year old car, regardless of make, its going to have some things to sort out in the next few years. Add to that its a big engine and a sports car, even more so. Its had a load of money spent on it, needs a few hundred quid spending on the interior and should be decent. What do you expect for £13k though. If someone spent that on a TVR, they'd be praying that it got them home, never mind the yearly running costs
This is a 20 year old car, regardless of make, its going to have some things to sort out in the next few years. Add to that its a big engine and a sports car, even more so. Its had a load of money spent on it, needs a few hundred quid spending on the interior and should be decent. What do you expect for £13k though. If someone spent that on a TVR, they'd be praying that it got them home, never mind the yearly running costs
John.Taylor said:
I don't get the appeal of old 911's.
I couldn't get excited opening up my garage door of a weekend to look at this, nor could I at the thought of driving it - you'd get much the same from a £5k Boxster. People must just be buying these as an investment but where's the fun in that.
If I had £13k to throw at a second car my money would go on a TVR (garage appeal), Elise (driving appeal) or an E46 M3 (garage & driving appeal).
Whereas for me the only TVR of interest is the Cerbera and prices have shot up recently, so you need £25k at least (and it'll probably be on its third chassis by now). Plus I'd like a weekend car I can really use and having worked for TVR when the Cerbera was in production I know what horribly compromised things they were. I really love the Cerbera: the looks, the sound, the popping and banging from the exhaust, the Starship Enterprise experience of seeing the world rushing by through that letterbox of a windscreen when you really open the taps in a 4.5. But the reality of a 20 year old one would scare the bejesus out of me. I well remember Steve Sutcliffe from Autocar getting locked in one of our factory demonstators with his father while taking him out for a birthday lunch - it was certainly a birthday to remember.I couldn't get excited opening up my garage door of a weekend to look at this, nor could I at the thought of driving it - you'd get much the same from a £5k Boxster. People must just be buying these as an investment but where's the fun in that.
If I had £13k to throw at a second car my money would go on a TVR (garage appeal), Elise (driving appeal) or an E46 M3 (garage & driving appeal).
The Elise experience would be tainted by a four pot behind my ears and a total lack of creature comforts.
I have friends with E46 M3s. They sound fabulous and go brilliantly, but when push comes to shove it's just a 3 Series and I've already got a newer one of those.
The 996 looks great to me now even though I hated it when it was launched. When you own one and study it more closely (like when you're cleaning it) you understand the design much better and appreciate just how good it is. It sounds great and things like the gear shift, steering weight/feedback and the spacing of the gear ratios are spot on. The ratios really are perfect. In fact for all of the mechanical/human interface stuff the 996 really shows just how agricultural a TVR was. I didn't buy mine as an investment - but I'm secretly hoping prices start to rise a bit faster to balance out the amount I'm sure I'm going to spend on it...
big_rob_sydney said:
Ahonen said:
big_rob_sydney said:
Okay so this is an opinion (yeah, and we know the old story about those), but my view is that this car, from the sounds of it, has been an absolute money pit. I'd be wary, simply because, if so many things have gone wrong with it, whose to say nothing else will? On the basis of the evidence so far, it seems to have been a pretty poorly screwed together car from the manufacturer, and my expectation is that more will go wrong.
Added to that, it's an old car, with a lot of miles on it. Not exactly a recipe for long term reliability in my opinion (although a guy who drives a Lexus which has had zero spent on it in 5 years barring consumables probably would focus on reliability, granted).
Thank you for your valuable product knowledge and technical input, Herr Kussmaul.Added to that, it's an old car, with a lot of miles on it. Not exactly a recipe for long term reliability in my opinion (although a guy who drives a Lexus which has had zero spent on it in 5 years barring consumables probably would focus on reliability, granted).
A. This is a discussion on product knowledge and technical input, or
B. This is an opinion.
For the slow people in the class, try to keep up.
And name dropping does you no favours in sad attempts to look clever. Try to read before posting.
Obviously I knew you wouldn't know who Roland Kussmaul is and I wasn't attempting to look clever - he was just the first Porsche engineer who popped into my head.
A close friend picked up a 85,000 mile 2003 C4S Tiptronic for £13,000 a few years ago. I love the look of the 'fatter' 996's. He wouldn't sell it for less than £25,000 now, which, considering they are now up at specialists for £30,000 plus is not a bad return on his initial outlay. The car has been faultless, and with an exhaust upgrade sounds sensational. He'd prefer a manual box, but other than that.......
Turbos are monstrous money now compared to where they sat a few years ago. I remember being tempted by a very nice 996 Turbo at £25,000 not so many years ago.
Turbos are monstrous money now compared to where they sat a few years ago. I remember being tempted by a very nice 996 Turbo at £25,000 not so many years ago.
Some bizarre comments on here.
Beardy sandal wearing aircooled Porsche aficionados despise(d) the 996 and its water cooled evil and cheap boxster headlights.
Everybody else who drove it LOVED it.
Its a 20 year old car with a few miles on it. As with any old car, budget for repairs if you are going to use it regularly.
Things age and wear out. Porsche-tax is a very real phenomenon so parts and labour are more like double a run of the mill 20 year old car. Only you can decide if the hassle of fixing it is worth the driving experience.
Its not likely to lose any more money because you just can't buy anything like this new.
Beardy sandal wearing aircooled Porsche aficionados despise(d) the 996 and its water cooled evil and cheap boxster headlights.
Everybody else who drove it LOVED it.
Its a 20 year old car with a few miles on it. As with any old car, budget for repairs if you are going to use it regularly.
Things age and wear out. Porsche-tax is a very real phenomenon so parts and labour are more like double a run of the mill 20 year old car. Only you can decide if the hassle of fixing it is worth the driving experience.
Its not likely to lose any more money because you just can't buy anything like this new.
I have one of these, I used to have a boxster before but a lot of the key parts cost the same. So I thought why not plough money into a 911 rather than a boxster.
Echoing some of the above comments, these are super good to drive, coupled with the sound of that flat six with a cargraphic exhaust. I think a lot of shopping around can be done on parts for these and not all work needs to be done via a porsche dealer or even specialist, especially consumable stuff. These are reliable cars (especially in 3.4 guise) E46 M3s have their fair share of known issues, what cars don't these days. The birescoring and IMS issue is overblown by the internet.
They don't make cars like this anymore and it is up there IMO with the best of the best in terms of analogue feel, handling & useable power for our roads. I think they look great and always have but I remember when they came out and I saw it in gone in 60 seconds and hoped I would get one one day.
This car in particular is great value, but I do agree regarding the ruffled leather and the amber headlights - not for me
Echoing some of the above comments, these are super good to drive, coupled with the sound of that flat six with a cargraphic exhaust. I think a lot of shopping around can be done on parts for these and not all work needs to be done via a porsche dealer or even specialist, especially consumable stuff. These are reliable cars (especially in 3.4 guise) E46 M3s have their fair share of known issues, what cars don't these days. The birescoring and IMS issue is overblown by the internet.
They don't make cars like this anymore and it is up there IMO with the best of the best in terms of analogue feel, handling & useable power for our roads. I think they look great and always have but I remember when they came out and I saw it in gone in 60 seconds and hoped I would get one one day.
This car in particular is great value, but I do agree regarding the ruffled leather and the amber headlights - not for me
John.Taylor said:
I don't get the appeal of old 911's.
The appeal is hearing the flat 6 firing up behind you, the steering quality, and the nice combination of compactness and ease on the road. John.Taylor said:
I couldn't get excited opening up my garage door of a weekend to look at this, nor could I at the thought of driving it - you'd get much the same from a £5k Boxster. People must just be buying these as an investment but where's the fun in that.
If I had £13k to throw at a second car my money would go on a TVR (garage appeal), Elise (driving appeal) or an E46 M3 (garage & driving appeal).
It's interesting that you need 3 separate cars to compete with just a single 996. If I had £13k to throw at a second car my money would go on a TVR (garage appeal), Elise (driving appeal) or an E46 M3 (garage & driving appeal).
big_rob_sydney said:
The first line of my post said what?
A. This is a discussion on product knowledge and technical input, or
B. This is an opinion.
For the slow people in the class, try to keep up.
And name dropping does you no favours in sad attempts to look clever. Try to read before posting.
The 996 like any old car is a potential 'money pit' at some point in its life.A. This is a discussion on product knowledge and technical input, or
B. This is an opinion.
For the slow people in the class, try to keep up.
And name dropping does you no favours in sad attempts to look clever. Try to read before posting.
I owned a Lexus/Toyota Soarer and sold it at 165k miles, the previous owner did nothing to it (as its a mighty Lexus and they're reliable?), I found out the hard way that it needed thousands to get it in good shape.
It comes down to standards, many are happy to drive old cars and neglect them as long as they get from A-to-B, yet the ownership experience of cars like the Porsche is greatly affected by its condition, hence why bills tend to be higher and more frequent.
STiG911 said:
Hairymonster said:
Thornaby said:
What do you expect for £13k though. If someone spent that on a TVR, they'd be praying that it got them home, never mind the yearly running costs
^ this!
ks!As someone who owned and drove mine joyously and over many miles, at, ahem, many speeds, mine only failed to proceed ONCE (and that was down to the wiring loom to the starter motor not being up to the job of carrying sufficient elecktrickety on a very hot day - fibreglass is a very good insulator after all)
Lets face it Lots Of Trouble Usually serious are paragons of reliability according to internetists...
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