What car has the best ever build quality?
Discussion
Lester H said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
p4cks said:
K11 Micra?
This, surely. The oldest ones are now 25 years old, the newest ones are 16 years old, and they are still a common sight on our roads. Literally thousands of them still running, with years of life left in them. And in 2002 when they were about to be superseded by the new model, they were on sale for £4995.Just staggering.
Best overall quality & reliability - Honda CRV Mk 1 (1998 model) At 180,000 miles, still nothing but routine services and not a blemish on the interior. Paintwork good considering the ravages of time
Worst for reliability but otherwise reasonable quality - Volvo S40 - absolutely awful reliability - put me off Volvo for life had 4 before it,
Worst for reliability but otherwise reasonable quality - Volvo S40 - absolutely awful reliability - put me off Volvo for life had 4 before it,
chappardababbar said:
This is a very interesting topic.
If I think about what build quality means, I think it's a combination of factors that include:
- Robustness
- Perception of quality i.e. touch and feel of materials, sounds
- Actual quality i.e. no expense spared approach to use of the most appropriate materials. i.e. quality of leather, thickness of steel, grade of steel, type of paint etc
- Engineering tolerances i.e. panel gaps
- Attention to detail i.e. the thought that has gone into the design
- Reliability
No manufacturer that I know of has ever nailed it in all these aspects.
The Mercedes from the 80s to the late 90s eg. W124,W140, W126,190E felt solid, had very reliable engines, felt robust, had quality feeling materials that, in my opinion, far exceed today's cars. However, in my personal experience things tend to go wrong and the bodies corrode.
The e34 is on par with the mercedes from this era, but it is also susceptible to rust and mechanical failure.
I would put three cars/manufacturers on par for the build quality crown:
The lexus LS400, which is superior to the Mercs and the BMW in every way, except the perception of quality of the interior.
The landcruiser amazon is a different proposition: not a luxury car but better than the equivalent G wagon in almost every respect in my humble opinion - except perceived quality and interior (later Gs)
The 90s to early 2000 hondas: Civic, Accord, prelude, FRV, NSX, S2000....all of them. This was a magic period for Honda. Engines, drivetrains, bodywork, mechanicals. EVERYTHING was engineered beautifully. They didn't 'feel' as special as mercedes or bmw or bentley or rolls....they certainly lacked character, but they were better built, better engineered, better quality items overall, I feel, and I'd actually give these cars the edge over the Lexus and the Landcruiser.
The build quality of my NSX continues to astound me even after 10 years of ownership. It has the feel of a car built almost without compromise: The Japanese at that time had the design & engineering knowledge, and the workforce to build a superbly reliable car. But crucially they didn't know that; so they were still trying to build 'the best' and 'the most reliable' car that they could, rather than built down to a price. If I think about what build quality means, I think it's a combination of factors that include:
- Robustness
- Perception of quality i.e. touch and feel of materials, sounds
- Actual quality i.e. no expense spared approach to use of the most appropriate materials. i.e. quality of leather, thickness of steel, grade of steel, type of paint etc
- Engineering tolerances i.e. panel gaps
- Attention to detail i.e. the thought that has gone into the design
- Reliability
No manufacturer that I know of has ever nailed it in all these aspects.
The Mercedes from the 80s to the late 90s eg. W124,W140, W126,190E felt solid, had very reliable engines, felt robust, had quality feeling materials that, in my opinion, far exceed today's cars. However, in my personal experience things tend to go wrong and the bodies corrode.
The e34 is on par with the mercedes from this era, but it is also susceptible to rust and mechanical failure.
I would put three cars/manufacturers on par for the build quality crown:
The lexus LS400, which is superior to the Mercs and the BMW in every way, except the perception of quality of the interior.
The landcruiser amazon is a different proposition: not a luxury car but better than the equivalent G wagon in almost every respect in my humble opinion - except perceived quality and interior (later Gs)
The 90s to early 2000 hondas: Civic, Accord, prelude, FRV, NSX, S2000....all of them. This was a magic period for Honda. Engines, drivetrains, bodywork, mechanicals. EVERYTHING was engineered beautifully. They didn't 'feel' as special as mercedes or bmw or bentley or rolls....they certainly lacked character, but they were better built, better engineered, better quality items overall, I feel, and I'd actually give these cars the edge over the Lexus and the Landcruiser.
With the NSX they were building a 'halo' car - to prove to the world what they could do. They built a new factory in which to construct the car, and handpicked the workers to work in the plant.
The car used more aluminium than almost any car had previously, with obvious corrosion and stiffness benefits. The only consistently unreliable thing with the early NSX seems to be individual components of the circuitboards in the stereo and air conditioning systems, and even then they don't fail until the car is at least 20 years old.
cgauk said:
While I like the shape I seem at odds with the love shown everywhere for e39s. My e39 must have been a lemon - bought it at 3 years old and about 40k miles - owned it for 2 painful years. The doors squeaked like Fievel’s family had abandoned America and settled in my car instead. Electrical gremlins, new wiring loom and incurable rattles in the dashboard were just a few of the issues. Definitely not solid. Perhaps it was built on the last Friday in July.
Maybe it was Pancake Day as your description also fits the lemon I had - I used to call it “Old Creaky”....except it wasn’t old - I would never have another bmwironically because of the rubbish build quality...and the treachourous road holding...I’ve heard a thousand reasons why the road holding was bad, (and it’s not the cars fault) all from bmw drivers in denial lol!mac96 said:
untakenname said:
Pre GM Saab.
Good call. We had a 99 followed by a 900 both from new (sadly not turbos); they might not have been the last word in performance but had a wonderful quality ambience. Merc W124 is the standard answer. I'd also go for a BMW E39 5-series. I had one and it was exactly as the OP says. I also had an E46 3-series and it was s
te.Dull but worthy, my old Toyota Avensis felt very well made. OK, Mine had an oil leak, but what do you expect for £300?
I think a good definition of quality is a lack of common faults many of which are down to poor/cheap parts suppliers, durability testing is part of this & what is deemed an acceptable failure rate varies vastly between manufacturers.
Some manufacturers will just keep churning out stuff that they know is faulty long term & accept the cost as its cheaper even in the long run. Warranty work keeps the franchise network happy.
When looking for a new car ask the dealership how big their warranty department is, some will have as many warranty bays as service bays (Have a guess) & a whole team of staff dedicated to the department. Others will have Wilma who does the warranty paperwork on a Wednesday lunchtime.
Thankfully for the manufacturers you can hide known issues behind a soft touch dashboard or an updated model with even new features.
Some manufacturers will just keep churning out stuff that they know is faulty long term & accept the cost as its cheaper even in the long run. Warranty work keeps the franchise network happy.
When looking for a new car ask the dealership how big their warranty department is, some will have as many warranty bays as service bays (Have a guess) & a whole team of staff dedicated to the department. Others will have Wilma who does the warranty paperwork on a Wednesday lunchtime.
Thankfully for the manufacturers you can hide known issues behind a soft touch dashboard or an updated model with even new features.
cptsideways said:
Thankfully for the manufacturers you can hide known issues behind a soft touch dashboard or an updated model with even new features.
So much truth in this.Volkswagen specifying expensive metal for interior door handles, while specifying coolant pumps with cheap plastic impellers, which break up and stop working a year or two out of warranty, for example. I'm picking on VW here, but they weren't alone in this. Audi oil pump drives and chocolate autoboxes, BMW timing chains, Mercedes rustproofing during THAT period in their history, etc etc. All cars which looked and felt expensive, and were superficially beautifully built, but had major shortcomings in quality or design under the skin.
In a showroom, nobody cares about the durability of a water pump, or whether the bolts holding the suspension together are galvanised. They do care what the interior looks and feels like. Don't get me wrong, I can understand why these decisions are taken, but it does illustrate the gulf between perception and reality when it comes to quality.
Harji said:
My current pre GM SAAB 900 turbo, these were designed by engineers.
My previously owned Subaru Legacy 2.5 (04 reg), I only owned it for a year, put 23k miles on it and the car felt new. Frameless doors, supper confy seats, the steering wheel was one of the best (I think it was a MOMO as standard) and of course that drive system, nothing rattled when I sold it on for 100K miles plus on the clock.
My current 2.7 diesel quattro A6 Avant, it's 12 years old, over 100k on it, I've put on 13k in less than a year and it feels like a new car, no wear in the interior, no squeaks from the suspension, nothing has broken.
"these were designed by engineers"....?! Unlike Mercedes VW Ford GM,Honda,etc etc etc etc I suppose.....still, you learn something new every day. [I am a retired automotive design engineer as it happens, so I would not know anything about this stuff.My previously owned Subaru Legacy 2.5 (04 reg), I only owned it for a year, put 23k miles on it and the car felt new. Frameless doors, supper confy seats, the steering wheel was one of the best (I think it was a MOMO as standard) and of course that drive system, nothing rattled when I sold it on for 100K miles plus on the clock.
My current 2.7 diesel quattro A6 Avant, it's 12 years old, over 100k on it, I've put on 13k in less than a year and it feels like a new car, no wear in the interior, no squeaks from the suspension, nothing has broken.
I find it hard to understand why people are citing some of the German stuff on here. Even the E39 had a hat full of issues the Japanese never had.
Toyota on the other hand, never cease to amaze me. Just brilliant, almost unbreakable machines that are fantastic to work on. Even their modern stuff seems to be a design classic. Underneath the skin, it looks as if everything has been designed to be as simple and as obvious as possible. (Compare that to a Merc). Japenese rust proofing is good, reliability is good, design is straightforward, material (steel) quality is good. Brilliant stuff.
And don't forget where kiazen, 6 sigma, SMED, low inventory ideas and all the other 'lean' ideas were first implemented. Having worked as a production engineer in a Japanese manufacturer, this is not lip service (unlike the UK, German and American co I've worked in).
Anyway, for me, best quality is probably a Yaris. (1997 - 2005) (Think about how many suffer unscheduled faults).
As you were.....
Toyota on the other hand, never cease to amaze me. Just brilliant, almost unbreakable machines that are fantastic to work on. Even their modern stuff seems to be a design classic. Underneath the skin, it looks as if everything has been designed to be as simple and as obvious as possible. (Compare that to a Merc). Japenese rust proofing is good, reliability is good, design is straightforward, material (steel) quality is good. Brilliant stuff.
And don't forget where kiazen, 6 sigma, SMED, low inventory ideas and all the other 'lean' ideas were first implemented. Having worked as a production engineer in a Japanese manufacturer, this is not lip service (unlike the UK, German and American co I've worked in).
Anyway, for me, best quality is probably a Yaris. (1997 - 2005) (Think about how many suffer unscheduled faults).
As you were.....
My suggestion would be a mk2 2 honda CRV, we own one, and if we judge build quality by tough and low maintenance then it's up there.
Ours is a 2002, with 121k and it simply never goes wrong, no bushes, springs, dampers etc have needed replacing, bar one wheel bearing and a diff oil change.
Looking underneath it was made to just work, without fail for as long as possible.
Amazing machine, and one that we would only part with if it dies a horrible death, which will be years away.
Ours is a 2002, with 121k and it simply never goes wrong, no bushes, springs, dampers etc have needed replacing, bar one wheel bearing and a diff oil change.
Looking underneath it was made to just work, without fail for as long as possible.
Amazing machine, and one that we would only part with if it dies a horrible death, which will be years away.
ericmcn said:
The LS400 is more iconic than the 430 i think and its a car that instantly comes to the mind of most car folk. The 430 itself is pretty incredible and some crazy bargains to be had.
Based on posts I've read on the Lexus Owners Club message boards, the 430 has more to go wrong, including common faults like steering wheel adjuster motors, misting between the double glazed windows, rear aircon pipes, corrosion on rear door panels, failure of radiator, leading to water mixing with transmission fluid and subsequent gearbox failure and air suspension problems.Edited by ericmcn on Saturday 10th November 15:22
Many owners are happy with them though, some preferring them to their previous 400s.
I've had my LS400 for six years, by far the longest I've kept any car.
It's a 1999 MKIV, with 140,000 miles on it, converted to LPG, currently transporting me around Spain in armchair comfort, with no issues and fuel at 61c a litre.
The best car I've ever owned or driven, by a country mile, and I've driven most of the other stuff mentioned on this thread.
bearman68 said:
I find it hard to understand why people are citing some of the German stuff on here. Even the E39 had a hat full of issues the Japanese never had.
Toyota on the other hand, never cease to amaze me. Just brilliant, almost unbreakable machines that are fantastic to work on. Even their modern stuff seems to be a design classic. Underneath the skin, it looks as if everything has been designed to be as simple and as obvious as possible. (Compare that to a Merc). Japenese rust proofing is good, reliability is good, design is straightforward, material (steel) quality is good. Brilliant stuff.
And don't forget where kiazen, 6 sigma, SMED, low inventory ideas and all the other 'lean' ideas were first implemented. Having worked as a production engineer in a Japanese manufacturer, this is not lip service (unlike the UK, German and American co I've worked in).
Anyway, for me, best quality is probably a Yaris. (1997 - 2005) (Think about how many suffer unscheduled faults).
As you were.....
I wish my mk1 MR2 and Eunos were well rust proofed with good steel! Toyota on the other hand, never cease to amaze me. Just brilliant, almost unbreakable machines that are fantastic to work on. Even their modern stuff seems to be a design classic. Underneath the skin, it looks as if everything has been designed to be as simple and as obvious as possible. (Compare that to a Merc). Japenese rust proofing is good, reliability is good, design is straightforward, material (steel) quality is good. Brilliant stuff.
And don't forget where kiazen, 6 sigma, SMED, low inventory ideas and all the other 'lean' ideas were first implemented. Having worked as a production engineer in a Japanese manufacturer, this is not lip service (unlike the UK, German and American co I've worked in).
Anyway, for me, best quality is probably a Yaris. (1997 - 2005) (Think about how many suffer unscheduled faults).
As you were.....
Maybe people have forgotten the W124 aftermarket chrome wheelarch trims to hide the rust. Or the rusted away jacking points. Or the fragile M104 head gaskets. Or the biodegradable wiring. Or the rusting estate tailgates. Self-levelling suspension, anyone?
I still loved mine, though - hence the username!
I also broke for spares my 1998 Volvo S80, and was very impressed by the thoroughness of its assembly. I now have another, slightly newer model
I still loved mine, though - hence the username!
I also broke for spares my 1998 Volvo S80, and was very impressed by the thoroughness of its assembly. I now have another, slightly newer model
bearman68 said:
I find it hard to understand why people are citing some of the German stuff on here. Even the E39 had a hat full of issues the Japanese never had.
Toyota on the other hand, never cease to amaze me. Just brilliant, almost unbreakable machines that are fantastic to work on. Even their modern stuff seems to be a design classic. Underneath the skin, it looks as if everything has been designed to be as simple and as obvious as possible. (Compare that to a Merc). Japenese rust proofing is good, reliability is good, design is straightforward, material (steel) quality is good. Brilliant stuff.
And don't forget where kiazen, 6 sigma, SMED, low inventory ideas and all the other 'lean' ideas were first implemented. Having worked as a production engineer in a Japanese manufacturer, this is not lip service (unlike the UK, German and American co I've worked in).
Anyway, for me, best quality is probably a Yaris. (1997 - 2005) (Think about how many suffer unscheduled faults).
As you were.....
Japanese cars definitely have the best reliability record and are the easiest to work on. There is nothing that matches them, my sister bought a brand new Suzuki Swift in 2009, sold it 6 months ago with over 100k miles, nothing ever went wrong on it, not once, just oil and brakes, she even stopped servicing it the past 3 years, considered the car old and pointless. Sold it for 2 grand in the end.Toyota on the other hand, never cease to amaze me. Just brilliant, almost unbreakable machines that are fantastic to work on. Even their modern stuff seems to be a design classic. Underneath the skin, it looks as if everything has been designed to be as simple and as obvious as possible. (Compare that to a Merc). Japenese rust proofing is good, reliability is good, design is straightforward, material (steel) quality is good. Brilliant stuff.
And don't forget where kiazen, 6 sigma, SMED, low inventory ideas and all the other 'lean' ideas were first implemented. Having worked as a production engineer in a Japanese manufacturer, this is not lip service (unlike the UK, German and American co I've worked in).
Anyway, for me, best quality is probably a Yaris. (1997 - 2005) (Think about how many suffer unscheduled faults).
As you were.....
I get your point but I think the thread is about the best built car and I still stand by the BMW E46 and E39. They’re complicated cars full of kit (at the time) and to this day, the 2 I owned and the 4 my brother owned are still rock solid and everything works. I’m not saying things stop working on Jap cars like Yaris’s and Corolla’s but they didn’t have much to start with, very simple cars.
I’ve personally owned 4 BMW’s, 1 Merc, 1 Lexus, 1 Civic , 1 Corolla, 1 Seat Ibiza and 1 Nissan Almera...every single German car cost me something but the Japs? Not a single penny...actually my Almera needed a new battery. The Ibiza was the worst, I don’t know how people stand by VAG cars. Worst things ever made run by a thieving lying company
Recently I've been running new to 2 is year old cars which have all been pretty much faultless as you would expect.
As for cars that are a few years I have a 1993 mini which is in constant need of something it is neither good quality of well built. My dad however has a 2002 Honda jazz which lives outside year round and has no special treatment other than being kept clean and an annual service. The only time it fails to start is because its been left too long between uses and the battery has dropped voltage. A quick charge later and it fires up straight away. If my life depended on it I would be confident that it would drive to China tomorrow. Its not high quality but it is built well.
As for cars that are a few years I have a 1993 mini which is in constant need of something it is neither good quality of well built. My dad however has a 2002 Honda jazz which lives outside year round and has no special treatment other than being kept clean and an annual service. The only time it fails to start is because its been left too long between uses and the battery has dropped voltage. A quick charge later and it fires up straight away. If my life depended on it I would be confident that it would drive to China tomorrow. Its not high quality but it is built well.
I don’t know why the e46 and e39 keep popping up. In terms of perceived quality they were good, but this blinds people to their flaws. I ran an e46 320d to 175k miles and it was a lovely car - quiet, good ride, nice handling, nice inside. However the rustproofing was crap for a supposedly premium car, it broke 3 sets of rear springs and 3 down pipe/cat assemblies and chewed through front suspension bushes at a ridiculous rate. I think the e90 was a better car, but not as good to drive.
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