What car has the best ever build quality?

What car has the best ever build quality?

Author
Discussion

Greg the Fish

1,410 posts

65 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Probably a new Phantom

harrycovert

416 posts

175 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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BGarside said:
Merc W123 Shirley?
Spannering heaven?

edd344

242 posts

65 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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My Grandma has a 2004 Rav4 that has never failed its MOT and never had any major work done to it

Limpet

6,294 posts

160 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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The P2 platform Volvos felt really well put together, and wear their miles superbly. My S60 at 155k still felt tight, had no interior rattles whatsoever, perfect panel gaps, and a couple of hours of cleaning would bring it up almost as new, even down to the carpet pile. I'm not sure I'd go as far as best ever, but they really are beautifully made cars.

HannsG

3,031 posts

133 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Early S Class.

Absolute bloody tanks. 1990-1996 era

Iamnotkloot

1,396 posts

146 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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I have an e39 and a Lexus rx400 and can confirm they’re both well built. Early days with the lex but I suspect it will be indestructible.
Weirdly my previous Subaru wasn’t under my watch though I think it had a very hard life prior to my ownership.
And yeah my 964 was very solid yet still expensive to keep running....

ElectricPics

761 posts

80 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Iamnotkloot said:
I have an e39 and a Lexus rx400 and can confirm they’re both well built. Early days with the lex but I suspect it will be indestructible.
Weirdly my previous Subaru wasn’t under my watch though I think it had a very hard life prior to my ownership.
And yeah my 964 was very solid yet still expensive to keep running....
Mate of mine has an RX400h that's heading north of 230,000 miles in ten years and still feels as solid as the day it was delivered and has had no issues other than replacement of wear and tear items. Despite being a hybrid it still likes a drink though. That era of Lexus was legendary for build quality. Not sure what newer models are like but I suspect they're just as well built.

Hammerhead

2,698 posts

253 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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From an actual build quality POV (over perceived material feel), I'd say the 944/968s were excellent. Solid construction, quality fasterners, logical layout/location (in general), zinc dipped body/chassis. I remember reading a review somewhere which stated 'they're built to a standard, not cost'. I'd say that was a very good description of that era of Porsche.

And BMW E34 5 series were also very, very good. I think they had the edge over the later E39s, the latter wasn't as well painted/bodies didn't resist corrosion as well.

Edited by Hammerhead on Friday 9th November 12:59

JOB2.5-16

403 posts

71 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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There is no debate to be had here.

Mercedes Benz built between 1983 and 1990 are the best built cars the world has ever seen. They used the best quality materials available and had unbelievable build quality and finish that there are still so many around in from this era in better condition than most cars by the end of their warranty period! For example, there are more Mercs on Auto Trader with 200k miles plus than any other marque. They're used around the world in all manner of battered states but keep going. Petrol models with the M102, M103 and M116/7 engines and OM616/7 and OM601/2/3 diesels will be around long after everything else is forgotten. Volvos, Land Cruisers, Saabs and Mitsubishis might be good but none come close, in my humble....

PAUL500

2,627 posts

245 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Budget car wise then the estate version of the Mk1 focus is still a great car to drive even now. So well put together.

Had a few of them as work horses and often lend them out to friends and family for tip or moving house duties, whenever they return them they always state what a lovely car to drive it was,

Latest is a 53 plate, one owner from new 90k on the clock, flies through its mot each year, still looks modern and cost me £500!

Red 4

10,744 posts

186 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Not the best ever, but as far as mainstream, modern(ish) stuff goes it will be whatever there are the most of in a Bradford taxi rank !

Toyota Avensis. Probably.

Toyota Corolla was bulletproof too. As long as you are friendly with a welder.

Edited by Red 4 on Friday 9th November 13:13

DJP

1,198 posts

178 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Pre GM Saab, Pre 2000 Volvo, Pre 1997 Merc, Lexus LS400.

80quattro

1,724 posts

194 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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I used to have an E28 M535i as a second car, doing around 3-4k miles in it per year. I sold it two years ago, and bought an E39 530i manual and could barely put it down. Build quality and the drive is second to none. My annual mileage tripled to 10-12k, and I even used in favour of my company car. Despite having since bought another car, I can't bear to sell the BMW - especially as 3.0i manuals are now so rare - so it now languishes on my driveway under a cover, waiting for next summer.

thiscocks

3,127 posts

194 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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BGarside said:
Merc W123 Shirley?

Never heard of a W123 Shirley. Some sort of special edition?

Id say W140, preferably in S500 guise.

J4CKO

41,287 posts

199 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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otolith said:
I suspect that this is mostly about perceived rather than actual build quality. I wonder how much the tendency to fit "sporty" suspension and rubber band tyres has been shaking the interiors of modern cars to bits.
Was thinking the same thing, along with interior materials "I Sat in" doesnt mean a car has impeccable build quality, it may just mean the bits you touch are contrived to give that impression, it usually follows but you cant guarantee it.

A car can have a good build quality and still be unreliable, a lot can be down to complexity or design errors, made well but not designed properly.

It doesnt follow that if something is big and posh versus small and cheap that the small car doesnt have good build quality.

People would say that a Toyota Aygo is a badly made POS, they are constructed cheaply but loads seem to keep on going, dont break and dont rust, we have a Citroen C1 we have had since a year old, all its needed is battery, most people would say an Audi A6 is built much better, but our neighbours have one that spends more time with Audi than at home.

Its a complex equation, and "it feels big posh, quiet and comfy" doesnt cut it, people slag the GM era Saabs, I had a 2004 9-3, the later shape, the interior quality was way below par, but working on it, it seemed very well made, it had cast alloy suspension arms, where the Vectra is was based on had pressed steel (or so I was told)

If you want to see proper quality, look at how aircraft are made, I work on some old planes and the quality of workmanship is unbelievable, even if in the air it would probably feel a bit rattly.

Its a really nebulous thing to quantify and means different things to different people.




Scootersp

3,107 posts

187 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Thankyou4calling said:
Many look back with rose tinted specs but any decent journey even in a high end car used to involve a gamble as to whether you’d arrive.

Edited by Thankyou4calling on Friday 9th November 08:24
I think that view is from a long long time ago, I'm 45 and even when I started driving in the early 90's in all sorts of bangers, mini's Mkii golfs etc I never thought I was gambling on any journey?


Thankyou4calling said:
A new car bought now from Audi, BMW, Merc will be built to a far higher standard than an 80’s car surely.

Better materials, rust proofing, closer shutlines, less rattles and niggles.

This leads to cars being way more reliable than previously.
Edited by Thankyou4calling on Friday 9th November 08:24
As others have said you'd think, but water based paint was definitely a backward step for the cars quality (not for the environment or painters!)

Also solder, lead was removed by law which led to some problems, I had a V70 of 2001 year and there were various issues on the forums about deteriorated solder giving dash issues. The link below states that exemptions were provide to military applications because it was known the replacement solders were less reliable.

https://www.ecnmag.com/article/2011/12/was-lead-fr...
"2. Lead-free assembly is less reliable than lead-based assembly. The E.U. environmental commission admits this point. That's why they grant exceptions for military and high-reliability applications that still use SnPb solder. (Ref. 3)

So you have the bean counters stopping the engineers/designers, and sometimes legislation changes to thwart them too (like the pedestrian impact rules can thwart the body design of cars now)

Overall manufacturers are out to improve things, but the money is often spent on a marketable aspect, few buyers will care if the panels are 1/4mm thicker than the competitors, the paint thicker, it's got a better corrosion resistant layer applied, the solder tracks are thicker, the electric connectors better sealed etc etc etc, when the fact is, ok review from the motoring press and a reversing camera and good infotainment system will ultimately sell the cars?

Some rose tintedness sure but also in the 90-00's era people often bring up there was perhaps less legislation and computer processing power that allowed materials 100% fit for purpose and that they were used to using and also they couldn't be as sure of engineering margins and so perhaps more over engineering through caution occurred?

Mercedes is a good example the early 90's being stated as a golden era, then the early 2000's things went wrong corrosion wise (was this a water based paint issue or a bean counter saying we've been overdoing it on the corrosion protection it's costing us money) and the company went backwards in this aspect. But I doubt it hurt them for years in sales (bean counters happy!), they played on their reputation and only a long way down the line did they have to improve again to regain consumer confidence?

But this does prove that the continual improvement curve is not a smooth one and can't be relied on, next years 'x' won't always be an improvement on the previous one.






Limpet

6,294 posts

160 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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Hammerhead said:
From an actual build quality POV (over perceived material feel), I'd say the 944/968s were excellent. Solid construction, quality fasterners,
Fasteners are a good shout. I am a Ford fan, but they are terrible in this respect. Every suspension fastener on my 2002 Focus looked like it had spent 15 years at the bottom of the sea, and most needed heat and/or a grinder to remove. I've never worked on a Ford of more than 5-6 years old that was any better.

Of course, nobody is going to see or care about this in a showroom, much less base a buying decision on it, so I can see why it's a popular cost saving choice, but it turns simple maintenance tasks into battles every time.



donkmeister

7,999 posts

99 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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kapiteinlangzaam said:
On a plus note, I have to say every Volvo ive ever had (MY2000-2010), being V70s, XC90s, and S60s have been generally extremely good.

The underside on every single one has been spotless, even after 200k miles. Exhausts always looked new, zero rust, very very good underseal from the factory.
Gearbox and rear diff are the weak points in those cars unfortunately - those parts are not engineered by Volvo though!

Alex_225

6,234 posts

200 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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From my own experience, my W211 E Class feels incredibly well put together despite it's 15 year on the road. Nothing about it feels fragile or cheap, everything works. Despite the questionable reliability/build of 00's era Mercs. It still impresses me for it's age and running costs.

I would imagine (or like to think) that the build quality of an S Class would make it pale in comparison but I've not driven one to know. Same as a Bentley or Rolls Royce, I'd imagine them to be leagues ahead in terms of how well built they feel.

Funk

26,254 posts

208 months

Friday 9th November 2018
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As someone else posted, there's a difference between 'build quality' and 'reliability'. Newer cars are on the whole, I suspect, more reliable overall but they are undoubtedly built down to a price in most cases.

In my view, my Mk7.5 Golf is nowhere near the build quality of the Mk4 2.8 V6 I had back in 2005. That thing just felt solid (but handled like it too).

Edited by Funk on Friday 9th November 15:29