RE: BMW reveals 374hp M340i ahead of LA show
Discussion
TwinExit said:
Still you are missing the point...
You are going out on your way, wasting your time (and my time) making out the 340i is a vehicle that PH should be collectively excited about. As hard as it is for you to accept, the car cannot 'do everything', there are major compromises and as such it can never match what a more exciting and driver orientated car can do on the road, no matter how many children and shopping bags you can fit in the boot.
I am not going to enter a Ferrari forum and abuse users who do not rate my re-mapped Audi Q7, regardless that it has outsold, hold 20x more luggage and 5 passengers whilst being able to 'keep up' with a F458 on some straight dual carriageway in the Midlands.
So that (and the 1000's of sales estimates you pulled out of your behind) is an irrelevant excuse for you to clutch on to when debating with forum members who are only interested in vehicles other than heavy 4 door automatics.
Again, try honestjohn and which - you can discuss sales volumes, boot space and outgoings vs miles till you are blue in the face.
Are you honestly trying to compare a 3 Series to something like a Lotus Elise for on road thrills? Of course it's going to be heavier and less entertaining, as that isn't it's job - it's job is to get you round the country in comfort, whilst still being entertaining on the right road.You are going out on your way, wasting your time (and my time) making out the 340i is a vehicle that PH should be collectively excited about. As hard as it is for you to accept, the car cannot 'do everything', there are major compromises and as such it can never match what a more exciting and driver orientated car can do on the road, no matter how many children and shopping bags you can fit in the boot.
I am not going to enter a Ferrari forum and abuse users who do not rate my re-mapped Audi Q7, regardless that it has outsold, hold 20x more luggage and 5 passengers whilst being able to 'keep up' with a F458 on some straight dual carriageway in the Midlands.
So that (and the 1000's of sales estimates you pulled out of your behind) is an irrelevant excuse for you to clutch on to when debating with forum members who are only interested in vehicles other than heavy 4 door automatics.
Again, try honestjohn and which - you can discuss sales volumes, boot space and outgoings vs miles till you are blue in the face.
It wouldn't be my first choice if I was interested in some "committed helmsmanship", in the same way I wouldn't do the 340 mile round trip I did yesterday to see a customer in an Elise.
TwinExit said:
Again, try honestjohn and which - you can discuss sales volumes, boot space and outgoings vs miles till you are blue in the face.
I don't understand your straw man argument nor your rationale. Have you decreed what people should visit PH for and what profile they should be ? If so could you share that with us ? So where does it all end?
I presume the next 340i after this one will be bigger again, have more power, more electronics etc etc. All because of constantly going one better than the competition power wise. Will that be better than this one?
In a few years it will be like an M5 is now, and an M5 will be 30% bigger with 1000bhp.
Trouble is with more and more power comes the need to handle all that power meaning everything is engineered to not break when being used to its maximum.
Trouble is 98% if the time this cannot be used in a road car and you have compromised feedback and fun at lower speeds as you need to fit bigger brakes, bigger wheels to fit over the bigger brakes etc. more and more electronics to be able to put the power down to achieve the stats for the marketing. (Plus to save the buyers from wiping out on the very first corner.)
Basically, the driver becomes less of a driver and more of a passenger, with the car saving your ass most of the time without you even realising. A very efficient way of getting from A to B but hardly a PistonHeads type of car.
As someone said earlier, the closest a modern reasonably priced saloon car gets to getting the balance right is a guilia veloce. Pity there’s no choice of manual or auto though, but getting anything petrol, rwd, over 200bhp is tricky these days.
I presume the next 340i after this one will be bigger again, have more power, more electronics etc etc. All because of constantly going one better than the competition power wise. Will that be better than this one?
In a few years it will be like an M5 is now, and an M5 will be 30% bigger with 1000bhp.
Trouble is with more and more power comes the need to handle all that power meaning everything is engineered to not break when being used to its maximum.
Trouble is 98% if the time this cannot be used in a road car and you have compromised feedback and fun at lower speeds as you need to fit bigger brakes, bigger wheels to fit over the bigger brakes etc. more and more electronics to be able to put the power down to achieve the stats for the marketing. (Plus to save the buyers from wiping out on the very first corner.)
Basically, the driver becomes less of a driver and more of a passenger, with the car saving your ass most of the time without you even realising. A very efficient way of getting from A to B but hardly a PistonHeads type of car.
As someone said earlier, the closest a modern reasonably priced saloon car gets to getting the balance right is a guilia veloce. Pity there’s no choice of manual or auto though, but getting anything petrol, rwd, over 200bhp is tricky these days.
Sounds like a great recipe for an all-rounder to me.
Fast, powerful, practical, luxurious, economical for the performance - what's not to like?
Don't understand the people saying just buy a 320d - this will be a much faster, more exciting and rewarding ownership experience. A totally different level of performance.
And yes, an M3 will be faster still. That's the idea of hierarchy's within a model range.
Having owned a (RWD) M135i, I think the move to AWD is the correct one. You'll be able to make more use of the performance, for more of the time. Which, to me, means more fun. The M135i was superb, but was challenging in damp / wet / cold conditions.
Fast, powerful, practical, luxurious, economical for the performance - what's not to like?
Don't understand the people saying just buy a 320d - this will be a much faster, more exciting and rewarding ownership experience. A totally different level of performance.
And yes, an M3 will be faster still. That's the idea of hierarchy's within a model range.
Having owned a (RWD) M135i, I think the move to AWD is the correct one. You'll be able to make more use of the performance, for more of the time. Which, to me, means more fun. The M135i was superb, but was challenging in damp / wet / cold conditions.
ITP said:
So where does it all end?
As someone said earlier, the closest a modern reasonably priced saloon car gets to getting the balance right is a guilia veloce. Pity there’s no choice of manual or auto though, but getting anything petrol, rwd, over 200bhp is tricky these days.
i said that on Wednesday!As someone said earlier, the closest a modern reasonably priced saloon car gets to getting the balance right is a guilia veloce. Pity there’s no choice of manual or auto though, but getting anything petrol, rwd, over 200bhp is tricky these days.
but i don't have a cock in this pit so am staying out of it!
The Voice said:
Having owned a (RWD) M135i, I think the move to AWD is the correct one. You'll be able to make more use of the performance, for more of the time. Which, to me, means more fun. The M135i was superb, but was challenging in damp / wet / cold conditions.
I suppose this highlights people’s preferences very well.The very fact that the M135i is ‘challenging’ in tricky conditions is why I would prefer as it is instead of being all wheel drive. You as the driver are more involved in keeping the thing in a straight line (or not!). I don’t really care that 4wd would be faster/less effort, that sort of misses the point, for me.
Everyone likes what they like though and that’s ok.
ITP said:
I suppose this highlights people’s preferences very well.
The very fact that the M135i is ‘challenging’ in tricky conditions is why I would prefer as it is instead of being all wheel drive. You as the driver are more involved in keeping the thing in a straight line (or not!). I don’t really care that 4wd would be faster/less effort, that sort of misses the point, for me.
Everyone likes what they like though and that’s ok.
I couldn't agree with you more ! You can only use a small fraction of the performance on the road anyway.The very fact that the M135i is ‘challenging’ in tricky conditions is why I would prefer as it is instead of being all wheel drive. You as the driver are more involved in keeping the thing in a straight line (or not!). I don’t really care that 4wd would be faster/less effort, that sort of misses the point, for me.
Everyone likes what they like though and that’s ok.
ITP said:
I suppose this highlights people’s preferences very well.
The very fact that the M135i is ‘challenging’ in tricky conditions is why I would prefer as it is instead of being all wheel drive. You as the driver are more involved in keeping the thing in a straight line (or not!). I don’t really care that 4wd would be faster/less effort, that sort of misses the point, for me.
Everyone likes what they like though and that’s ok.
On balance, I loved the fact it was tail happy. When in the mood, it was great to be constantly fighting with the on-power over steer. Lots of fun. I took it on two track days (both times warm and dry) and it was really good.The very fact that the M135i is ‘challenging’ in tricky conditions is why I would prefer as it is instead of being all wheel drive. You as the driver are more involved in keeping the thing in a straight line (or not!). I don’t really care that 4wd would be faster/less effort, that sort of misses the point, for me.
Everyone likes what they like though and that’s ok.
But when it's your daily, in the depths of winter on cold, dark, greasy, bumpy B roads, I think I would (personally) have even more fun with the traction advantage which 4wd brings. I image it will still be adjustable, with that level of power and a rear bias.
But like you say, everyone's different!
TwinExit said:
And that's the key, the dealer offers discounted entry to a newer/better model, so much so it would not make financial sense to simply hand your old car back and 'walk away' to another brand, it defeats the purpose of going into a PCP deal in the first place.
It depends on personal circumstances, but I would say that buying (via any means) new cars is almost always financially imprudent. But that doesn't mean it's a bad idea.I'm not going to get into the good and evil of PCP which has been done to death on here, suffice to say that my personal circumstances made the PCP the most attractive way into the car I wanted, WITHOUT any need, financially or otherwise, to commit myself to anything beyond the PCP period, and with the ability to take any of the three options at the end depending on my needs, and the deals on the table at the time. I can't comment on others, but it works for me. And quite honestly, that's the only person it needs to work for.
TwinExit said:
Up-selling to existing customer base is now pretty much modus operandi over at BMW...
And at <insert any manufacturer here>. This isn't a secret, it's good business sense. Unless they start tying people to the sales manager's desk until they sign, it's really not a big deal.It's no secret that PCP is used as a tool to upsell customers. But there is no obligation at all. Therefore, I struggle to understand your repeated use of the word 'trap'.
TwinExit said:
Ares said:
I'll try and simplify (and give you the benefit of the doubt you are not shifting the argument to minimise loses)
BMW only care about sales volume and profit. Regardless how the 'owner' buys the car, BMW get cash. That is all they care about.
Very few current driver of 320d will buy this M340 new.
No one is arguing against the business logic of BMW, car makers want to sell cars and make money.BMW only care about sales volume and profit. Regardless how the 'owner' buys the car, BMW get cash. That is all they care about.
Very few current driver of 320d will buy this M340 new.
The 340i in the context of driving enjoyment, styling, sound, feel, performance (petrol head stuff), it falls way short on what 'beards' look for in car. That is the reason for the lack of interest in this forum, not because of one's reluctance or financial inability to buy new cars, that's rather insulting.
BMW don't care about such beards.
TwinExit said:
Ares said:
230bhp/tonne makes this a fairly quick car. ANY car that you add 400kg to will be slower. Basic physics. But as I said, if you only want one car. Want to carry the family, Want to do long distances and want to have some fun when you are in the car alone, this is a compelling proposition - few will do better than that at the price.
There are a LOT of people that just want one car to do everything.
To compare this to 'performance car' as at best disingenuous and at worse idiotic. Those same real performance cars would be s
t at carrying a spouse and 3 kids with a boot full of luggage to go away for the week. 
Still you are missing the point...There are a LOT of people that just want one car to do everything.
To compare this to 'performance car' as at best disingenuous and at worse idiotic. Those same real performance cars would be s
t at carrying a spouse and 3 kids with a boot full of luggage to go away for the week. Edited by Ares on Thursday 15th November 16:20
You are going out on your way, wasting your time (and my time) making out the 340i is a vehicle that PH should be collectively excited about. As hard as it is for you to accept, the car cannot 'do everything', there are major compromises and as such it can never match what a more exciting and driver orientated car can do on the road, no matter how many children and shopping bags you can fit in the boot.
I am not going to enter a Ferrari forum and abuse users who do not rate my re-mapped Audi Q7, regardless that it has outsold, hold 20x more luggage and 5 passengers whilst being able to 'keep up' with a F458 on some straight dual carriageway in the Midlands.
So that (and the 1000's of sales estimates you pulled out of your behind) is an irrelevant excuse for you to clutch on to when debating with forum members who are only interested in vehicles other than heavy 4 door automatics.
Again, try honestjohn and which - you can discuss sales volumes, boot space and outgoings vs miles till you are blue in the face.
No car can do everything. I've never said otherwise.
Every car is a compromise.
If my budget was limited to £50k, this would hit what I would want in one car-fits-all solution very closely. Carry my family, do 15,000miles and entertain me as a driver when I'm alone.
I don't see any car can do what this care can any better? Can you?
And don't make stupid assumptions. I don't buy a car based on sales volumes, boot space etc. My 500bhp saloon is a low volume, small booted, expensive to run option.
ITP said:
As someone said earlier, the closest a modern reasonably priced saloon car gets to getting the balance right is a guilia veloce. Pity there’s no choice of manual or auto though, but getting anything petrol, rwd, over 200bhp is tricky these days.
I agree.....but the market doesn't. Otherwise the Veloce would sell more than the 330i/340inickfrog said:
I don't understand your straw man argument nor your rationale. Have you decreed what people should visit PH for and what profile they should be ? If so could you share that with us ?
I will ignore the fact of the above being simply a loaded question for a moment.This is a car forum, not everyone is going to like new 1600 kilo 4 door automatic saloons and can express so, just the same way someone can express excitement that he can have one to go to work everyday with, or to ferry his family around at 155 MPH on a theoretical trip on the Autobahn some day.
But to for people who are not warmed to this car based on valid subjective issues then being simply regarded as an 'internet beard on a budget of 50p" exposes some members as utterly irrational or as someone conducting some toxic campaign to promote certain cars for their own vested interests.
Now, to answer your question ..... please bugger off, with cherry on top.
TwinExit said:
I will ignore the fact of the above being simply a loaded question for a moment.
This is a car forum, not everyone is going to like new 1600 kilo 4 door automatic saloons and can express so, just the same way someone can express excitement that he can have one to go to work everyday with, or to ferry his family around at 155 MPH on a theoretical trip on the Autobahn some day.
But to for people who are not warmed to this car based on valid subjective issues then being simply regarded as an 'internet beard on a budget of 50p" exposes some members as utterly irrational or as someone conducting some toxic campaign to promote certain cars for their own vested interests.
Now, to answer your question ..... please bugger off, with cherry on top.
Out of interest, is there an approved list of cars we can get excited about? This is a car forum, not everyone is going to like new 1600 kilo 4 door automatic saloons and can express so, just the same way someone can express excitement that he can have one to go to work everyday with, or to ferry his family around at 155 MPH on a theoretical trip on the Autobahn some day.
But to for people who are not warmed to this car based on valid subjective issues then being simply regarded as an 'internet beard on a budget of 50p" exposes some members as utterly irrational or as someone conducting some toxic campaign to promote certain cars for their own vested interests.
Now, to answer your question ..... please bugger off, with cherry on top.
TwinExit said:
nickfrog said:
I don't understand your straw man argument nor your rationale. Have you decreed what people should visit PH for and what profile they should be ? If so could you share that with us ?
I will ignore the fact of the above being simply a loaded question for a moment.This is a car forum, not everyone is going to like new 1600 kilo 4 door automatic saloons and can express so, just the same way someone can express excitement that he can have one to go to work everyday with, or to ferry his family around at 155 MPH on a theoretical trip on the Autobahn some day.
But to for people who are not warmed to this car based on valid subjective issues then being simply regarded as an 'internet beard on a budget of 50p" exposes some members as utterly irrational or as someone conducting some toxic campaign to promote certain cars for their own vested interests.
Now, to answer your question ..... please bugger off, with cherry on top.
TwinExit said:
Ares said:
Kenny Powers said:
Should be a great car and very quick. Consummate all-round daily driver 
Exactly, which is what it's intended to be. Not a sports car to rival an MX5.A handful of beards who have never bought a car less than 10yrs old might lament the lack of a quaint H gate box, and a few others that wouldn't own a BMW is they were free, whinging about a design being 'gopping' is of no concern to BMW who target people who actually buy these cars new. And they will buy them. By the thousands.
Car firm launches a 370bhp saloon and all the driving gods of PH can comment on is a grill, exhaust size and a gearbox that nobody bought anyway.
Perpetual car prison.
Ares said:
Beards don't want/can't afford brand new sports saloons. Beards want a 'classic 5-15yr old 'proper' saloon and an MX5.
Name one example or is this some enemy you created in your own head?Ares said:
I've never said PH should be excited about it - but it's disingenuous to say it is 'pointless'.
No car can do everything. I've never said otherwise.
Every car is a compromise.
If my budget was limited to £50k, this would hit what I would want in one car-fits-all solution very closely. Carry my family, do 15,000miles and entertain me as a driver when I'm alone.
I don't see any car can do what this care can any better? Can you?
And don't make stupid assumptions. I don't buy a car based on sales volumes, boot space etc. My 500bhp saloon is a low volume, small booted, expensive to run option.
What is 'better' to you is not so for another person, I have no problem with you drooling over the car, it's when you attack people, accusing them of being a poverty stricken beard because they state the car does nothing for them.No car can do everything. I've never said otherwise.
Every car is a compromise.
If my budget was limited to £50k, this would hit what I would want in one car-fits-all solution very closely. Carry my family, do 15,000miles and entertain me as a driver when I'm alone.
I don't see any car can do what this care can any better? Can you?
And don't make stupid assumptions. I don't buy a car based on sales volumes, boot space etc. My 500bhp saloon is a low volume, small booted, expensive to run option.
You still not answered my question, are you a car dealer or BMW shill? You are determined to protect the poxy car and it's image from internet opinion as you find it so threatening.
This sort of car is designed for a very specific sort of person... me.
The version I have has been out for 3 years and according to howManyLeft there were less than 2,000 registered in the UK by the end of Q2.
This is not a big seller for BMW, but I for one am glad that they still have 6 cylinder petrol saloon.
It seems there are only a few PH members that think this is a terrible thing for BMW to do, the rest either couldn't care less (probably because they don't have kids, or have multiple cars) or a few like myself think that this is a good car that will be reasonably fun when you get the chance to let it loose.
The version I have has been out for 3 years and according to howManyLeft there were less than 2,000 registered in the UK by the end of Q2.
This is not a big seller for BMW, but I for one am glad that they still have 6 cylinder petrol saloon.
It seems there are only a few PH members that think this is a terrible thing for BMW to do, the rest either couldn't care less (probably because they don't have kids, or have multiple cars) or a few like myself think that this is a good car that will be reasonably fun when you get the chance to let it loose.
TwinExit said:
Ares said:
I've never said PH should be excited about it - but it's disingenuous to say it is 'pointless'.
No car can do everything. I've never said otherwise.
Every car is a compromise.
If my budget was limited to £50k, this would hit what I would want in one car-fits-all solution very closely. Carry my family, do 15,000miles and entertain me as a driver when I'm alone.
I don't see any car can do what this care can any better? Can you?
And don't make stupid assumptions. I don't buy a car based on sales volumes, boot space etc. My 500bhp saloon is a low volume, small booted, expensive to run option.
What is 'better' to you is not so for another person, I have no problem with you drooling over the car, it's when you attack people, accusing them of being a poverty stricken beard because they state the car does nothing for them.No car can do everything. I've never said otherwise.
Every car is a compromise.
If my budget was limited to £50k, this would hit what I would want in one car-fits-all solution very closely. Carry my family, do 15,000miles and entertain me as a driver when I'm alone.
I don't see any car can do what this care can any better? Can you?
And don't make stupid assumptions. I don't buy a car based on sales volumes, boot space etc. My 500bhp saloon is a low volume, small booted, expensive to run option.
You still not answered my question, are you a car dealer or BMW shill? You are determined to protect the poxy car and it's image from internet opinion as you find it so threatening.
For someone that needs an entertaining, 5-seat, sub-£50k car, this is a great contender. If you don't have a partner/family/only ever drive for the sheer hell of it, it's not for you.
...and I've not attacked a single person? Nor being poverty stricken? How do you draw that conclusion?
You've not asked me - but no. I don't work in the motor trade, have connections to it or even drive a BMW. I just a car fan and have an opinion.
And I'm not the one that appears threatened. I love the idea that BMW have launched a 370bhp non-M3 3-series. As I said, if my budget was £50k, with my current needs out of a car, it would be a tough contender to beat.
Limpet said:
And at <insert any manufacturer here>. This isn't a secret, it's good business sense. Unless they start tying people to the sales manager's desk until they sign, it's really not a big deal.
It's no secret that PCP is used as a tool to upsell customers. But there is no obligation at all. Therefore, I struggle to understand your repeated use of the word 'trap'.
Some cars sell on the basis of desirability and merit, others cars work their way into buyers driveways because the alternative is to jump to another brand of car they can afford and suffer the full cost of the outgoing PCP agreement on the old BMW, or mitigate this by stretching up to a bigger model, aided by dealer incentive discounts.It's no secret that PCP is used as a tool to upsell customers. But there is no obligation at all. Therefore, I struggle to understand your repeated use of the word 'trap'.
The 340i falls into the latter sales channel.
Is this a forum to discuss cars of interest, or is it to praise product that makes 'good business sense' by major car manufacturers?
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