RE: Eighth generation Porsche 911 officially unveiled

[E65Ross]

nickfrog said:

sidesauce said:

I fully agree that different people like different things but my point was that you three represent the minority of people in not liking the car

Have you got data to back up your assumption that we are in a minority ? It's entirely possible that a majority of sports car buyers didn't choose a 911 because they preferred something with different driving characteristics, and PMOI in particular.

The fact 911 sales haven't taken much of a hit despite more rivals (R8, AMG GT etc) and the fact more "raw" cars like the alpine, alfa 4c etc aren't selling well despite being cheaper?

[nickfrog]

E65Ross said:

The fact 911 sales haven't taken much of a hit despite more rivals (R8, AMG GT etc) and the fact more "raw" cars like the alpine, alfa 4c etc aren't selling well despite being cheaper?

That still doesn't mean that a majority of sports car buyers like the way a 911 drives though. I have no data or market share so I don't know either way.

[nickfrog]

sidesauce said:

nickfrog said:

Have you got data to back up your assumption that we are in a minority ? It's entirely possible that a majority of sports car buyers didn't choose a 911 because they preferred something with different driving characteristics, and PMOI in particular.

The fact that a previous poster mentioned that upon selling his car and posting his comments on a Porsche forum resulted in vitriolic responses would suggest he's in the minority.

A minority of Porsche owners indeed. That still doesn't back up the claim.

[Julian Thompson]

I have thought about this a bit and I expect that Porsche know what they are doing with market research to make a car that hits its target customer base just right.

I know that many of you disagree but I believe that the true competitor of something like a 911 is more diverse than you’d expect. It could be a Range Rover, an M5 or a two bedroom rental terrace. If the 911 was more a performance toy and less an all rounder it might conceivably lose more sales to these other temptations than it would win sales against even more hardcore machines.

[white_goodman]

It's all been said already really, so not much more to add. I agree that the Cayman now essentially occupies the space that the 911 used to in being the "sports car" of the range (although for the very wealthy few the GT versions of the 911 are certainly very focussed "sports" cars). I'll leave the driving experience out of it because I haven't driven either but the main criteria I'm judging it on is physical size and weight, where I think the 911 has swollen to more GT-level proportions.

Shame about the Flat 4 on the Cayman now though, because prior to the 718, I had personally considered the Cayman to be more desirable to me than the 911 because of the smaller weight and proportions. Now I would rather have a 911 Carrera again over a Cayman for the six-pot motor. The cynic in me might say that Porsche canned the Flat 6 in the Cayman because it was stealing sales from the increasingly more expensive 911 rather than the still plausible reasons that were given.

I think that the 911 Carrera models and the Panamera now occupy the market where the 928 used to sit, although I wouldn't be surprised if the 911 was at the "sportier" end of the GT spectrum. It would be nice if Porsche brought out a cheaper, entry-level front-engined 2+2 coupe in the same vein as the 924/944 and GT86/BRZ using the Flat 4 engines from the Cayman but I doubt this would be a commercially-viable proposition and would steal Cayman sales, so they won't. It's difficult to see what other areas of the market that Porsche could go into now without diluting the brand too much and stealing sales from existing models.

I think that the "evergreen' appeal of the 911 is in that no-one has ever really managed to produce a direct competitor that does everything so well. Stuff like the M3/M4 coupes, C63 Coupes and Audi RS5 are as quick and more practical but have more humble platforms. The Vantage, AMG GT, F-Type and Audi R8 all have their merits but are all strict two-seaters and not quite as polished as all-rounders. Note that all of these "entry-level" coupes no longer have the 2+2 seating, whereas their predecessors did (DB7, Jag XK etc).

The closest "direct" competitors that I can think of are the Nissan GTR and Lotus Evora but the GTR is a very different animal and neither sell in anything like the numbers of the 911. I do wonder how many 911 buyers actually use the +2 seating though? It would make it the only choice above all of the above options for some but a lot of 911 buyers will be either younger or older, more affluent customers who don't need or value them i.e. not many middle-aged people with kids and judging by how rare the GT and Carrera T models are with rear seats...

Overall, the 911 still offers more of the same and I think it looks fine, although the back looks a lot fussier than the 991.1, which I thought was the most beautiful 911 since the 993. The interior looks a lot more modern and I love the dark brown colour scheme in the video. Not sure if the point on poo bacteria on the touchscreen is serious? One would hope that I'm not going to have 200+ people touching my touchscreen per day like the touchscreen in a McDonalds and I wash my hands after I've been to the bathroom!

I would have one like a shot but unfortunately a "base" Carrera now ringing in at 100k or so now makes a 911 less of a realistic dream car than it used to be and more of a "pipe dream' in my world.

[Julian Thompson]

I think that’s a good post - question though - was the 911 ever a “dream” car? (Pipe or otherwise!)

Or was it an attainable goal?

[Buster73]

Julian Thompson said:

I think that’s a good post - question though - was the 911 ever a “dream” car? (Pipe or otherwise!)

Or was it an attainable goal?

Wait till the initial orders have been satisfied, they’ll start giving good finance deals to help those folk attain their dream car.

[white_goodman]

Julian Thompson said:

I think that’s a good post - question though - was the 911 ever a “dream” car? (Pipe or otherwise!)

Or was it an attainable goal?

Good point. It WAS an attainable goal vs. a Ferrari/Lambo and latterly an Aston as the dream but now a 981 Cayman/A110/M2 Comp seems like the more attainable goal. I know "inflation" but it feels like the price of a 911 has increased by a bigger margin than the Boxster/Cayman over the last 20 years? Perhaps in percentage terms not. I don't think that I would argue with anyone saying that their "dream car" was a 911 GT variant though and if I'd saved all my life for a car that could be used for any occasion then a Carrera 4S is still one hell of an all-rounder compared to something that's more exciting in the right scenario but more one-dimensional as a polished all-rounder.

Edited by white_goodman on Monday 3rd December 22:10

[Leithen]

I've come from driving a 2013 Cayman S over several years. Never as a daily driver, but in any number of different situations and conditions.

I never managed to completely connect with it. It handled beautifully and was very quick. But I drove it on its terms. It was focused and relatively inflexible. Get the revs up and it thrilled. But this was a relatively narrow band of intense joy, that even living in the Scottish countryside was difficult to sustain.

For me it also lacked presence and drama.

The 992 is stupidly quick. However, I hope it's performance will be more accessible than the Cayman and the driving experience more enjoyable in a variety of situations. Everything is subjective, but I still find the concept of the 911 very enticing.

The 2+2 is useful for me with a young family. It's now the same size as a 928, which used to be huge. But look at a 928 nowadays and it's not big. There is very little that offers the same performance and driving experience at the same price, even if that price is somewhat eye-watering. M4s, Quadrifoglios, GTRs, offer the performance, but they just don't stir the same emotions in me.

It's 12 years since my last 911 - I'm looking forward to seeing what a more modern incarnation brings.

[seastorm]

This pic of all 8 generations perfectly shows what's wrong with the 992. Even allowing for perspective ("Dougle, these cows are small, but the ones out there are far away") it's clear the 992 front end shape and width has taken the 911 in a different direction.

Looks like the 993 and 991 take honours for best looking modern iterations.

[E65Ross]

Buster73 said:

Julian Thompson said:

I think that’s a good post - question though - was the 911 ever a “dream” car? (Pipe or otherwise!)

Or was it an attainable goal?

Wait till the initial orders have been satisfied, they’ll start giving good finance deals to help those folk attain their dream car.

You state that as if it's a problem? Please can you elaborate as to why?

[MX6]

seastorm said:

This pic of all 8 generations perfectly shows what's wrong with the 992. Even allowing for perspective ("Dougle, these cows are small, but the ones out there are far away") it's clear the 992 front end shape and width has taken the 911 in a different direction.

Looks like the 993 and 991 take honours for best looking modern iterations.

The thing that pokes me in the eye there is the large expanse of black plastic in the 992 front bumper, the rear bumper has a large area too of course. With dark paint colours it blends in and I don't really mind it, but with light colours like that yellow it stands out too much and looks unattractive compared to the earlier cars.

[sidesauce]

nickfrog said:

A minority of Porsche owners indeed. That still doesn't back up the claim.

It's not my claim - the poster mentioned it happened to him?

[Ares]

white_goodman said:

It's all been said already really, so not much more to add.... <snip> .

Ironic way to start a 600 word post

But I don't think the 911 has particularly got any more expensive in real terms? I agree is has always been an aspirational car, and still is. I'd say it is aspirational for far more people than before too, despite a plethora of competitors on the market.

It is, and to a large extent has always been, a great 'one-size-fits-all' sports car. Hammer it round a track all day, drive home in air-conditioned comfort, before taking it on a long weekend around Europe with the wife (or mistress), then back in time to do the school run on Monday morning.

....and knowing is has a better than average chance of starting first time, every time.

[Ares]

white_goodman said:

I would have one like a shot but unfortunately a "base" Carrera now ringing in at 100k or so now makes a 911 less of a realistic dream car than it used to be and more of a "pipe dream' in my world.

And this is the S, not the standard, and it's £93k.

[white_goodman]

Ares said:

And this is the S, not the standard, and it's £93k.

Missed that was for the Carrera S, not the base Carrera, so maybe not so bad but 100k with options easily... How much cheaper is the base Carrera typically? I said that maybe the price hadn't gone up more than anything else in percentage terms but being a more expensive car in the first place... Cayman was always a 35-40k car even back with the 987 in 2005. Now it starts around 43k, which isn't that much higher taking into account the extra power, performance and tech. A 997 Carrera was around 60k back in 2005ish (now around 79k for a 991 Carrera, 992 will probably be a bit more). Perhaps only an incremental increase from 991 to 992 but the 991 was a big step up in price from the 997.

[Ares]

white_goodman said:

Missed that was for the Carrera S, not the base Carrera, so maybe not so bad but 100k with options easily... How much cheaper is the base Carrera typically? I said that maybe the price hadn't gone up more than anything else in percentage terms but being a more expensive car in the first place... Cayman was always a 35-40k car even back with the 987 in 2005. Now it starts around 43k, which isn't that much higher taking into account the extra power, performance and tech. A 997 Carrera was around 60k back in 2005ish (now around 79k for a 991 Carrera, 992 will probably be a bit more). Perhaps only an incremental increase from 991 to 992 but the 991 was a big step up in price from the 997.

Fair enough, but the Cayman has, since 2006, gone from £35k to £46k, 32% increase. The base 911 in 2006 was £60k. Assume a base price of the non-S of £80k it gives an increase of 33%. Not that different?

[white_goodman]

Ares said:

Fair enough, but the Cayman has, since 2006, gone from £35k to £46k, 32% increase. The base 911 in 2006 was £60k. Assume a base price of the non-S of £80k it gives an increase of 33%. Not that different?

Fair enough, I was going off 44k for a base 718 Cayman manual based on Honest John's website. Still, if you went into a Porsche dealership now with 60k (or even 70k) cash hoping to purchase a new 911 then you might get a bit if a shock. Being 4-5k short on a new Cayman wouldn't be such a big deal to overcome i.e 33% of 60k is a lot more difference in terms of budget than 33% of 35k. Not sure if the Cayman was ever as cheap as 35k? The figure that I came up with for the cheapest 987 Cayman when new was 36k, so easily 40k with options. In reality, it's only gone up a few thousand, which seems fair for the extra power, performance and tech.

[p1stonhead]

992 Dacia Duster Edition anyone?

I do wonder how cheaply they could make one like this.


https://reddit.com/r/Porsche/comments/a30d93/new_i...

[MX6]

p1stonhead said:

992 Dacia Duster Edition anyone?

I do wonder how cheaply they could make one like this.


https://reddit.com/r/Porsche/comments/a30d93/new_i...

Ha, loving that!