RE: Lotus EV hypercar plans emerge...
Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
CABC said:
It’ll reset price expectations in the market. Lotus has diminished cache in the market right now but in 7 years time once a real halo has been produced their parts bin special that you describe will be well over 50k, and will sell in reasonable global volume.
On a similar note I wonder what the purpose of a loss making Bugatti was? Fantastic halo that vast majority of people don’t realise is related to VW or Audi? Was it just a vanity project or is there a long term payback?
I think that’s really the point. Lotus needs to push prices higher but the brand is just not strong enough to do that. Having a £2m hypercar washing around will genuinely reset consumers’ perceptions. On a similar note I wonder what the purpose of a loss making Bugatti was? Fantastic halo that vast majority of people don’t realise is related to VW or Audi? Was it just a vanity project or is there a long term payback?
However, being Lotus their solution to the enormous weight of the battery pack will probably be to make the hypercar a track only car where you run a long extension cable to a plug socket in the centre of the circuit and then just drive round and round off the mains.
I know most people didn't like Danny Bahr's (name check) vision of Lotus, and maybe his plans were a bit optimistic, but by god the design images of the proposed cars looked fantastic. Yet I remember most people on here crying as they weren't true Lotus cars, ie, made of plastic and glue, and were niche market cars.
I'm sure if Danny Bahr's plans had come to fruition, Lotus would be in a far better position than they are now. Yes the cars might have weighed more. Yes they wouldn't have been track focused. But they would have appealed to the Cayman, 911 owner, as a realistic alternative.
For me as well, Lotus produce far too many special editions. The paints not even dry on the `Ultimate` 300R, when the announce the `Ultimate` 320R. Then the 340R. It's just silly. And didn't someone say dealer are having to buy them, and then have them just sat around?
In some ways McLaren are going down the same route. Too many cars, too soon, and all very similar to one another.
wab172uk said:
I'm sure if Danny Bahr's plans had come to fruition, Lotus would be in a far better position than they are now. Yes the cars might have weighed more. Yes they wouldn't have been track focused. But they would have appealed to the Cayman, 911 owner, as a realistic alternative.
From what I've read, I think Geely might actually have similar aims for Lotus; the difference being that unlike Bahar, they can actually afford to fund them. I think Geely have probably got this right. To achieve their apparent ends (having a globally recognised high-end sports car brand) I think they need to position the brand as a competitor for the likes of Porsche or even Ferrari/Lamborghini and then take advantage of Lotus's lack of existing investment/baggage in internal combustion and significant experience of aluminium and composites to leapfrog the competition at a technical level as the market transitions from internal combustion to electric propulsion.
Of course that's easier said than done, but an electric hypercar is probably a good statement of intent.
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th December 09:09
wab172uk said:
They need to push the prices higher? Personally, I think there prices are too much now. If they want to sell at 911 money, they need to produce a genuine 911 rival. Lotus are perceived as track cars now, and if that's all they want to produce, then fine. But the audience is limited.
I know most people didn't like Danny Bahr's (name check) vision of Lotus, and maybe his plans were a bit optimistic, but by god the design images of the proposed cars looked fantastic. Yet I remember most people on here crying as they weren't true Lotus cars, ie, made of plastic and glue, and were niche market cars.
I'm sure if Danny Bahr's plans had come to fruition, Lotus would be in a far better position than they are now. Yes the cars might have weighed more. Yes they wouldn't have been track focused. But they would have appealed to the Cayman, 911 owner, as a realistic alternative.
For me as well, Lotus produce far too many special editions. The paints not even dry on the `Ultimate` 300R, when the announce the `Ultimate` 320R. Then the 340R. It's just silly. And didn't someone say dealer are having to buy them, and then have them just sat around?
In some ways McLaren are going down the same route. Too many cars, too soon, and all very similar to one another.
I was close to being a lone voice back in the Bahar day’s in believing that he had exactly the understanding of what was desperately needed and an excellent plan but executed it in a most unusual way, generally highlighted by the fact that linking your product to Bryan May or Swiss Beats was not going to add ‘coll’ Or ‘desirability’ but make the situation even worse. I know most people didn't like Danny Bahr's (name check) vision of Lotus, and maybe his plans were a bit optimistic, but by god the design images of the proposed cars looked fantastic. Yet I remember most people on here crying as they weren't true Lotus cars, ie, made of plastic and glue, and were niche market cars.
I'm sure if Danny Bahr's plans had come to fruition, Lotus would be in a far better position than they are now. Yes the cars might have weighed more. Yes they wouldn't have been track focused. But they would have appealed to the Cayman, 911 owner, as a realistic alternative.
For me as well, Lotus produce far too many special editions. The paints not even dry on the `Ultimate` 300R, when the announce the `Ultimate` 320R. Then the 340R. It's just silly. And didn't someone say dealer are having to buy them, and then have them just sat around?
In some ways McLaren are going down the same route. Too many cars, too soon, and all very similar to one another.
I also agree that the current line up of road cars can’t carry any more pricing but in order to stay in the game they have to.
They do need new product, a new image and a higher profit margin if they want to keep making extremely high performance sports cars. Just like they need another product such as the SUV to deliver a consistent revenue flow that can be used to build the business.
All of this is coming and I assume the PR of the £2m hypercar is simply part of the essential drive to change the brand image and keep the business alive.
The Crack Fox said:
I sat in a two hour engineering meeting about this today. Drawings, pics and everything. Had I not done so I, too, would have laughed it off. The picture is nothing like it, though, and it's not strictly a 100% Lotus project either.
Personally, I'd fix a hundred k-series head gaskets before buying a Lotus EV, because I'm old school. But it is an interesting project, that's for sure.
A little point of correction regarding the Tesla roadster - that was 100% Hethel built, despite what everyone said officially.
The financials for the Tesla float said that the Roadster was built at Lotus without the drivechain - it called them "gliders" - and the drivechain fitted in the US. With models for the European market crossing the Atlantic twice. Personally, I'd fix a hundred k-series head gaskets before buying a Lotus EV, because I'm old school. But it is an interesting project, that's for sure.
A little point of correction regarding the Tesla roadster - that was 100% Hethel built, despite what everyone said officially.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Indeed, but the reason Porsche can charge more for their SUVs than other manufacturers isn't that they make better SUVs, it's that they make better sports cars. Even if such a halo car is a loss-leader I think it's probably still a good idea to produce such a vehicle to push the brand before they start knocking out generic family vehicles with big Ultimately I think it's going to be at least five years before we really know what Geely expect of Lotus and probably 10+ before we know whether they can achieve it... but I'm pretty confident that what they want doesn't involve catering for Lotus's existing customers (the few of them that there are).
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I wouldn’t disagree but I don’t think this project has come about from Lotus specifically sitting down and drawing up a PR plan to work in conjunction with a business plan. I think it’s more likely that the project came about independently and it is subsequently being used for PR?I think I'd tend to agree that something at the top end of the sports car market would probably do them more good - a £200k car would probably work as well as a halo model as a £2m car and they might actually sell enough that people will get to see them parked on the double-yellow lines outside Harrods (or whatever the equivalent in Beijing is).
However in a way I suspect developing a viable £200k sportscar is probably harder than developing a £2m hypercar. The former requires proper productionisation of everything where the latter can be hand-built in tiny numbers. Basically they can knock together a hypercar whilst working on their core SUVs where a £200k production sportscar would draw a lot of resources away.
Obviously this is all a complete guess. The whole thing might be the usual Autocar made up rubbish.
However in a way I suspect developing a viable £200k sportscar is probably harder than developing a £2m hypercar. The former requires proper productionisation of everything where the latter can be hand-built in tiny numbers. Basically they can knock together a hypercar whilst working on their core SUVs where a £200k production sportscar would draw a lot of resources away.
Obviously this is all a complete guess. The whole thing might be the usual Autocar made up rubbish.
Edited by kambites on Friday 7th December 10:36
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly. Why EV only? OK, Tesla punt out a few cars to Eco warriors, but your average Billionaire doesn't give a s
t about mpg, or CO2. They just want the best and fastest cars they can buy. It's probably why Ferrari, Porsche, & McLaren used Hybrid power for their Halo cars. Have the advantage of the additional battery power, but also allow your customer to drive the car and not have to sit in a motorway service station (if they can find one) and sit for an hour or so while it charges up. That's after they've had to wait for an hour for the Tesla to move out of the way as it's been charging up too.The Crack Fox said:
I sat in a two hour engineering meeting about this today. Drawings, pics and everything. Had I not done so I, too, would have laughed it off. The picture is nothing like it, though, and it's not strictly a 100% Lotus project either.
Personally, I'd fix a hundred k-series head gaskets before buying a Lotus EV, because I'm old school. But it is an interesting project, that's for sure.
A little point of correction regarding the Tesla roadster - that was 100% Hethel built, despite what everyone said officially.
Personally, I'd fix a hundred k-series head gaskets before buying a Lotus EV, because I'm old school. But it is an interesting project, that's for sure.
A little point of correction regarding the Tesla roadster - that was 100% Hethel built, despite what everyone said officially.
Todd Bonzalez said:
It is SUVs, they've hired out a huge studio and are currently poaching some of the best people in the industry.
Cheers guys. Interesting.anonymous said:
[redacted]
while the German brands have engineered some great cars they don't have a wrap on the best talent. They have evolved their cars over time with teams of great engineers and process. However, the top .1% of engineers and designers can make a difference in designing new products. i'm thinking Chapman, Murray, Twohig, Rackman.A team was assembled afresh for the A110. i think if you were the very best and Lotus with Geely backing came knocking at your door you'd answer the call. Another reason for a $2m hyper car is to recruit talent.
kambites said:
I think that depends more on how the industry sees Geely than how they see Lotus. Ten years ago I don't think anyone would have considered Volvo to be a serious long-term career prospect but they're doing rather well now.
You’d still want your mortgage, pension and income secured by Geely and not Lotus if you were key industry talent moving to a provincial entity which has been passed from pillar to post for the last 30 years. DonkeyApple said:
You’d still want your mortgage, pension and income secured by Geely and not Lotus if you were key industry talent moving to a provincial entity which has been passed from pillar to post for the last 30 years.
Indeed, I've no idea how Geely are viewed by the Western automotive industry in that regard. There would certainly be significant risk in moving to a company in such a state of flux. Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff