How does a electric car compare with a diesel performance
Discussion
kambites said:
The new i3 might fit the bill when it appears? The Hyundai Kona is getting good reviews, too, although it's "only" 200bhp so not massively quick.
This review of the Kona EV suggests it's definitely a viable contender for a DD for most of ushttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LATZ0g-Sz2s
Wife has had a GTE for a year now and I must admit it has taken me back how easy and refined it is to drive. In electric mode which is good for about 25-30 miles it is pretty quick and great fun to drive as the torque is instant, no revving or waiting for a turbo to kick in.
I am definitely converted.
The ball ache for us was installing a 3KW charge point and if very household has to do that then there will be problems.
Our house was built in 1924 and we have a drive so no need to park in the street. The power feed only had a 40 amp fuse so that needed upgrading to 100amp.
That involves three separate companies to do the work. The energy company own the meter, I own the electric fuse box, and the grid own the cables to the house and the internal copper wires. All had to be upgraded and took about 4 months to organise and manage after multiple surveys and paperwork. Ours was an easy installation as well with the charging point installed through one wall from the main board.
Now I have a new meter all of the readings are reset so now I am in the process of taking pictures of my new meter and it's readings so I can pay my bill.
So love the car and the way it drives but don't envy anyone who wants to try and install a charger at home.
I am definitely converted.
The ball ache for us was installing a 3KW charge point and if very household has to do that then there will be problems.
Our house was built in 1924 and we have a drive so no need to park in the street. The power feed only had a 40 amp fuse so that needed upgrading to 100amp.
That involves three separate companies to do the work. The energy company own the meter, I own the electric fuse box, and the grid own the cables to the house and the internal copper wires. All had to be upgraded and took about 4 months to organise and manage after multiple surveys and paperwork. Ours was an easy installation as well with the charging point installed through one wall from the main board.
Now I have a new meter all of the readings are reset so now I am in the process of taking pictures of my new meter and it's readings so I can pay my bill.
So love the car and the way it drives but don't envy anyone who wants to try and install a charger at home.
I bit the bullet and bought an i3 2 months ago - simply a revelation.
It's stupidly cheap to run - my monthly fuel bill has gone from £450 to £35 plus saving £46 a month on tax!
I love petrol but the future is looking a lot better than I thought it would a couple of years ago.
I've driven my ICE car 3 times since which tells you all you need to know and I still haven't got around to installing the rapid charger at home!
It's stupidly cheap to run - my monthly fuel bill has gone from £450 to £35 plus saving £46 a month on tax!
I love petrol but the future is looking a lot better than I thought it would a couple of years ago.
I've driven my ICE car 3 times since which tells you all you need to know and I still haven't got around to installing the rapid charger at home!
rainmakerraw said:
MrOrange said:
A Tesla over the same distance would cost you a tenner and dump nothing into the lungs of our upcoming generation.
Nothing? Are you quite sure? Even if we ignore the copious quantities of pollution emitted during the mining, refining, manufacture and distribution of rare earth elements and metals for batteries, there is also the question of particulate matter. That nefarious stuff that gets deep into the lungs and causes cardio-pulmonary disease and early death. Diesel usually gets the finger for this one, but actually studies show that most PM pollution comes from non-tailpipe emissions such as tyres, brakes and re-suspension of matter from the road surface. Studies also repeatedly show that EVs give out the same amount of PM pollution/emissions as ICE vehicles even without tailpipe emissions (in part due to their extra weight). In low speed limit areas, especially those with speed humps et al., PM levels are dangerously high. Ironically this is most prevalent around schools and in residential housing adjoining main roads.
I have no beef whatsoever with EVs, but let's not pretend they're kissing children as they pass on by.
Source.
Source.
Source.
austinsmirk said:
Matthen said:
austinsmirk said:
it will outrun any generic 2 l petrol/diesel lump in the red light race. she absolutely loves this, when spotty yoofs think they'll blast past in the outer lane.
Parkers put the 0-62 of the current leaf @ 8.2 seconds. A 2L diesel (as generic as they come) does it in 7.8 - half a second faster. Assuming the outer lane runs for more than about 20 yards, the leaf will end up behind. Yes, they're quick off the line, but in a similar way to a city car - they run out of puff all too soon. I feel it's more likely the "yoofs" are driving 1.2 corsas, combined with the jerk of the initial acceleration, giving you the (false) impression that the leaf is a fast car.
ditto, duel carriageways, from roundabout starts- it nails them. yes by the time yr at 50, its starting to back off- but the way it puts the torque down, no wheel spin and just sets off, is pretty good fun.
I'll be honest though, its very amusing because yr average audi/bmw whatever driver who assumes they'll fly past you (in yr little battery car) don't and can't: plus yr car has no screaming engine, gear changes- it just does it all silently.
but, as I said, its no sports car by any stretch- its a domestic appliance and a reasonably rapid and amusing way to sit in traffic.
average speed has been 17 mph over 8000 miles. says a lot about driving: and I live in a village, by the moors and its very rural- i.e this isn't London city driving.
our diesel fuel bill of £200 a mth on 2 cars is now
£22 mth electric
£60 diesel mth............ you simply end up using the EV all the time as its so cheap to travel.
plus work pay me £80/£100 a mth for fuel anyway, so its a bit of a win win really.
never really been in a position where to have a car, its effectively for a few pounds.
Pica-Pica said:
Diesel usually gets the finger for this one, but actually studies show that most PM pollution comes from non-tailpipe emissions such as tyres, brakes and re-suspension of matter from the road surface.
Worth noting that EVs are considerably better than ICE for brake dust in that regard because by and large you generally don't really use the brakes in normal low-speed driving. I guess the extra weight probably makes them slightly worse for tyre particles. kambites said:
Pica-Pica said:
Diesel usually gets the finger for this one, but actually studies show that most PM pollution comes from non-tailpipe emissions such as tyres, brakes and re-suspension of matter from the road surface.
Worth noting that EVs are considerably better than ICE for brake dust in that regard because by and large you generally don't really use the brakes in normal low-speed driving. I guess the extra weight probably makes them slightly worse for tyre particles. 
Pica-Pica said:
rainmakerraw said:
MrOrange said:
A Tesla over the same distance would cost you a tenner and dump nothing into the lungs of our upcoming generation.
Nothing? Are you quite sure? Even if we ignore the copious quantities of pollution emitted during the mining, refining, manufacture and distribution of rare earth elements and metals for batteries, there is also the question of particulate matter. That nefarious stuff that gets deep into the lungs and causes cardio-pulmonary disease and early death. Diesel usually gets the finger for this one, but actually studies show that most PM pollution comes from non-tailpipe emissions such as tyres, brakes and re-suspension of matter from the road surface. Studies also repeatedly show that EVs give out the same amount of PM pollution/emissions as ICE vehicles even without tailpipe emissions (in part due to their extra weight). In low speed limit areas, especially those with speed humps et al., PM levels are dangerously high. Ironically this is most prevalent around schools and in residential housing adjoining main roads.
I have no beef whatsoever with EVs, but let's not pretend they're kissing children as they pass on by.
Source.
Source.
Source.
And for a minute, lets consider just a single bit in an engine, the crankshaft.
A typical crankshaft for a 4 cyl mass produced engine looks like this:
It consists of about 25 kg of high grade forged steel that has undergone numerous high precision machine steps. Today, depending on where you make your steel, the steel billet for this forging (that'll weigh around 30% more to account for forging cut-offs) has already released between 1.1 and 2.4 times it's own mass in Co2 during it's refining from iron ore. (source: metalproduction If we ignore the extraction and supply chain overheads for that iron ore, then that's 60kg of Co2 to get to the parts "blank".
Then we need to forge it. That requires heating of the blank to around 1100 degC, and a huge input of mechanical energy to shape it into the pre-machined form. The part heating alone takes 16.5 MJ (assuming 100% efficiency, so at least twice that in reality given thermal losses from typical production line ovens):
Assume this forging is done in the UK with around 0.5kg/kWh and there's another 5 odd kg to add to the tally.
Then we need to finish machine the part:
Removing material to the precise finished size. It's difficult to comeup with a definitive Co2 number of this step, because it is extremely process dependent, but i would suggest probably it contributes around another 1kg of Co2 when all done.
So all in, we have released 66Kg of Co2 to make our crank.
Entire process here in moving pictures: crankshaft_production_youtube
But an ICE powertrain is not just the crank. it's the cams, the pistons, the rods, the valves, the flywheel, the oil pumps, the exhaust manifolds, the turbo's, the starter motor, the alternator, the FEAD, the water pump, the sump, the block,the heads, the cam covers, the valve springs, the VCT mechanisms, and a modern multi-speed transmission is simillarly jam packed with ultra precision, high grade machined steel parts.
By comparison, and electric motor is a stack of lazer cut flat steel plates, on an axle. And because they don't really need complex transmissions, those parts are much reduced (they still a few gears and a diff and driveshafts of course, but look at the parts in say an 8spd auto box and marvel at the complexity in there!)
Now people say, regularly, "but EV batteries are really polluting to make" but i just can't see it, sorry. A modern EV battery cell is two metalised plastic membranes with bulk chemicals rolled between them: bmw_battery_production.
yes, the chemicals used do contain rare earth elements (but not actually that much of them) and yes, there are a lot of cells in a single EV battery, but i logically cannot see how an EV powertrain can be more polluting to make than a current ICE powertrain? It just doesn't stand up to scrutinty as far as i can tell??
The studies to date that suggest EVs are more polluting to make than current ICE are getting to that conclusion simply due to the low production volumes for EVs vs ICEs. The amortisation of production facility emissions to each final product is what is skewing the numbers i think. When EVs are mass produced then i simply cannot see any valid reason that an EV is more polluting to make than an equivalent ICE. And of course, as EV production lines are necessarily new, unlike ICE ones that get re-jigged or carried over to new models) those lines are generally significantly more efficiency and less polluting. For example, the BMW i production facility is entirely powered by renewable energy already.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 7th December 12:34
kambites said:
Pica-Pica said:
Diesel usually gets the finger for this one, but actually studies show that most PM pollution comes from non-tailpipe emissions such as tyres, brakes and re-suspension of matter from the road surface.
Worth noting that EVs are considerably better than ICE for brake dust in that regard because by and large you generally don't really use the brakes in normal low-speed driving. I guess the extra weight probably makes them slightly worse for tyre particles. 1) they have very low torsional vibration in their power delivery, meaning less gross tyre slip, meaning less wear, even at high rates of accel. One the reasons a Tesla is so fast to accelerate is because it can keep it's tyres at a very controlled slip value in real time.
2) EVs tend to be fitted with narrower, harder compound, more wear resistant tyres to reduce rolling friction
3) ime, people drive EVs smoother, because they tend to anticipate more, and use gentle regen to slow, rather than a sudden jerky iinputs
Pica-Pica said:
Well, to get one of these EVs will mean moving home for me - I have no facility to charge at home. Apart from the social issues with moving, financially that rules out EVs for me for now.
Loads (probably the majority) of EV owners around here without the ability to charge at home. It's not an issue If the government /councils are interested in building up the infrastructure. anonymous said:
[redacted]
Was that 350 miles real world range and 300KW charging??Tesla Roadster 2.0 will deliver that, as well the Porsche Tycan, and I suspect the next Jag XJ.
Question will be are you willing to pay £80k+ for abit of extra range most people will never use and expensive rapid charging versus very cheap home charging.
£30k for a 250-300 mile range EV and decent charging speeds 100-150KW and most people will be happy. Hyundai/Kia are already nearly at that price point, others will be there soon.
If you really want 350 miles range and 300KW+ your have to wait (and pay) a while longer.
RizzoTheRat said:
Pica-Pica said:
Well, to get one of these EVs will mean moving home for me - I have no facility to charge at home. Apart from the social issues with moving, financially that rules out EVs for me for now.
Loads (probably the majority) of EV owners around here without the ability to charge at home. It's not an issue If the government /councils are interested in building up the infrastructure. All very well to suggest that in a few years we'll all be driving E cars but what if those of us at the bottom of the ladder can't afford them?
Three years ago I payed £3.500 for my car and probably now worth £1.500. Hopefully it will go on another year or two if I can pay the £25 p/m tax.
Three years ago I payed £3.500 for my car and probably now worth £1.500. Hopefully it will go on another year or two if I can pay the £25 p/m tax.
finishing touch said:
All very well to suggest that in a few years we'll all be driving E cars...
I don't think anyone is suggesting such a thing; the expectation is that new car sales will (gradually) transition over to EVs. Obviously what's on the second-hand market depends on what was being sold new five years or whatever earlier so people who buy second-hand will on average end up swapping later. This is my conundrum really. I don't really want to buy another ICE powered family car but I'm not convinced our Octavia is going to last long enough for the current generation of EVs to drop into my normal price range.
finishing touch said:
All very well to suggest that in a few years we'll all be driving E cars but what if those of us at the bottom of the ladder can't afford them?
Three years ago I payed £3.500 for my car and probably now worth £1.500. Hopefully it will go on another year or two if I can pay the £25 p/m tax.
They start at £200/month which when you consider the crazy savings you make running them seems reasonable? Three years ago I payed £3.500 for my car and probably now worth £1.500. Hopefully it will go on another year or two if I can pay the £25 p/m tax.
ATG said:
Pica-Pica said:
Well, to get one of these EVs will mean moving home for me - I have no facility to charge at home. Apart from the social issues with moving, financially that rules out EVs for me for now.
Do you have a petrol station at home? austinsmirk said:
my wife has a leaf. its a utilitarian white good that is ace for the shopping, school run, work churn. it's no drivers car in the twisty stuff. feels positively unstable on the moor roads etc around us. it's ugly and inside its a generic plastic finished appliance.
it will outrun any generic 2 l petrol/diesel lump in the red light race. she absolutely loves this, when spotty yoofs think they'll blast past in the outer lane.
as it does it silently- its even stranger and I'm not sure many people know what they are yet.
in winter- she hits a button on her phone and it pre heats itself- seats, windows, steering wheel. this is invaluable on the mad rush at 8.30 to escape the house and pile the children into the house. no more de-icing cars, nor cars idling on the drive for 10 mins. it either runs from its own battery or if still plugged in, from yr own domestic supply. ditto when she leaves work- hit a button at her desk and go out to a pre-heated car.
winter impacts on battery range naturally- but not hugely- knocks maybe 15-20 miles off yr range on a full charge.
can't be bothered with the grid, supply, debate- we've done 100's of pages on that, on here.
currently, as a second car: you'd never have anything else once you've experienced it.
oh and its cost £233 in electric to drive 8000 miles in 12 mths. There's the winning argument right there.
Couldn't agree more. My buddy and fellow PH-er ElectricSoup has a Leaf for precisely these reasosn and I was staggered at how good it is for the usage you describe when he let me have a go. it will outrun any generic 2 l petrol/diesel lump in the red light race. she absolutely loves this, when spotty yoofs think they'll blast past in the outer lane.
as it does it silently- its even stranger and I'm not sure many people know what they are yet.
in winter- she hits a button on her phone and it pre heats itself- seats, windows, steering wheel. this is invaluable on the mad rush at 8.30 to escape the house and pile the children into the house. no more de-icing cars, nor cars idling on the drive for 10 mins. it either runs from its own battery or if still plugged in, from yr own domestic supply. ditto when she leaves work- hit a button at her desk and go out to a pre-heated car.
winter impacts on battery range naturally- but not hugely- knocks maybe 15-20 miles off yr range on a full charge.
can't be bothered with the grid, supply, debate- we've done 100's of pages on that, on here.
currently, as a second car: you'd never have anything else once you've experienced it.
oh and its cost £233 in electric to drive 8000 miles in 12 mths. There's the winning argument right there.
I'd have one in a heartbeat to replace our Honda mumtruck were it not for the fact that we occasionally need to tow with that and towing is a no-no with EVs, as far as I understand.
MrOrange said:
F4R said:
I was following a leaf once and both of us were stuck behind a slow moving HGV up a steep hill. To my amazement, the leaf successfully overtook it without any trouble. If you like diesel torque you'll love electric
A Nissan Leaf has 240lbft of torque. That’s more than my 3 litre, flat-6, Subaru Legacy Outback.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff