RE: Litchfield Alpine A110: PH Trade-Off!
Discussion
Here is a quote from autocar magazine
"From a depreciation standpoint, our experts predict the top-flight Alpine will retain 55% of its value after 36 months of ownership and 36,000 miles. By comparison, a Cayman S should hold on to 60% over the same time period."
Hardly a damning assessment and something I am quite happy with but it is after all just a guess.
"From a depreciation standpoint, our experts predict the top-flight Alpine will retain 55% of its value after 36 months of ownership and 36,000 miles. By comparison, a Cayman S should hold on to 60% over the same time period."
Hardly a damning assessment and something I am quite happy with but it is after all just a guess.
springfan62 said:
Here is a quote from autocar magazine
"From a depreciation standpoint, our experts predict the top-flight Alpine will retain 55% of its value after 36 months of ownership and 36,000 miles. By comparison, a Cayman S should hold on to 60% over the same time period."
Hardly a damning assessment and something I am quite happy with but it is after all just a guess.
I'd agree and if you look at other highly rated niche stuff like the Toyota GT86 and various Loti, they've held up well, so no reason why the Alpine can't too. The Toyota GT86 hasn't dipped below £10K yet, which isn't bad for a six year old car which went on sale at £23-24K in 2012."From a depreciation standpoint, our experts predict the top-flight Alpine will retain 55% of its value after 36 months of ownership and 36,000 miles. By comparison, a Cayman S should hold on to 60% over the same time period."
Hardly a damning assessment and something I am quite happy with but it is after all just a guess.
springfan62 said:
I don't give much time to comparisons between a new car and a 10 years old because its quite obvious the 10 year old will have done the majority of its depreciation and will therefore suffer less going forward.
I haven't actually seen any of the facts all the naysayers go on about, high PCP Rates, low GFV values etc etc where is all the evidence.
No one says a Golf R has low depreciation because the PCP and Lease rates were low it was because there was hidden manufacturer support for the products just as they are now doing with the S3 and S4.
A car like the Alpine or 4C needs to be judged over a longer timeframe as will be seen in the future, cars like the 4C will be really sought after by a niche following, they are not mass market cars and you cannot use the same criteria for calculating depreciation.
Many of us Alpine buyers have bought for the long term, not just a 3 year PCP deal. I have bought mine to keep as i very much doubt that anything remotely comparable to drive will be being developed. It's a one off type of car, there will be few more like it before all cars are electric, and I have no doubt that there will be a following for that type of driving experience.
I doubt many realise how much it costs to develop a low volume sports car with an Aluminium body and then expect it to be priced the same an Audi (Golf) TT which are knocked out in the tens of thousands even the Cayman is a mass produced car and thats a similar price. The closest comparisons is probably the 4c after some initial heavy depreciation the cars are now starting to appreciate. And that is a car which was never commercially successful. By comparison the Alpine has sold 140 already and has a order book of 12 months - how can that indicates its so over-priced.
Its a shame that for a car that is so refreshingly apt that some just don't get it. Never mind there are plenty that do!
Longer term I think you're right... The S1 Lotus Exige, new was ~£40,000 (I think), dropped to about £15,000 (of course, when I sold mine!) and now worth £60,000 plus. Only a handful made has helped here but the concept remains that actually, when we look back, there's these gems which crop up and will be worth something, simply because they are a decent bit of kit.I haven't actually seen any of the facts all the naysayers go on about, high PCP Rates, low GFV values etc etc where is all the evidence.
No one says a Golf R has low depreciation because the PCP and Lease rates were low it was because there was hidden manufacturer support for the products just as they are now doing with the S3 and S4.
A car like the Alpine or 4C needs to be judged over a longer timeframe as will be seen in the future, cars like the 4C will be really sought after by a niche following, they are not mass market cars and you cannot use the same criteria for calculating depreciation.
Many of us Alpine buyers have bought for the long term, not just a 3 year PCP deal. I have bought mine to keep as i very much doubt that anything remotely comparable to drive will be being developed. It's a one off type of car, there will be few more like it before all cars are electric, and I have no doubt that there will be a following for that type of driving experience.
I doubt many realise how much it costs to develop a low volume sports car with an Aluminium body and then expect it to be priced the same an Audi (Golf) TT which are knocked out in the tens of thousands even the Cayman is a mass produced car and thats a similar price. The closest comparisons is probably the 4c after some initial heavy depreciation the cars are now starting to appreciate. And that is a car which was never commercially successful. By comparison the Alpine has sold 140 already and has a order book of 12 months - how can that indicates its so over-priced.
Its a shame that for a car that is so refreshingly apt that some just don't get it. Never mind there are plenty that do!
springfan62 said:
Here is a quote from autocar magazine
"From a depreciation standpoint, our experts predict the top-flight Alpine will retain 55% of its value after 36 months of ownership and 36,000 miles. By comparison, a Cayman S should hold on to 60% over the same time period."
Hardly a damning assessment and something I am quite happy with but it is after all just a guess.
We've had enough of so called experts.... "From a depreciation standpoint, our experts predict the top-flight Alpine will retain 55% of its value after 36 months of ownership and 36,000 miles. By comparison, a Cayman S should hold on to 60% over the same time period."
Hardly a damning assessment and something I am quite happy with but it is after all just a guess.
springfan62 said:
I doubt many realise how much it costs to develop a low volume sports car with an Aluminium body and then expect it to be priced the same an Audi (Golf) TT which are knocked out in the tens of thousands even the Cayman is a mass produced car and thats a similar price. The closest comparisons is probably the 4c after some initial heavy depreciation the cars are now starting to appreciate. And that is a car which was never commercially successful. By comparison the Alpine has sold 140 already and has a order book of 12 months - how can that indicates its so over-priced.
Its a shame that for a car that is so refreshingly apt that some just don't get it. Never mind there are plenty that do!
We should mind though. If the mass "performance" market continues to be happy with top trump numbers then manufacturers will just produce hyper hatches and not dedicate any resources to proper sports cars. Its a shame that for a car that is so refreshingly apt that some just don't get it. Never mind there are plenty that do!
I really don't see Lotus producing anything under 60k from now on. Will the A110 be a one-off? Will an MR2 be released? Will Brexit ever happen?
CABC said:
We should mind though. If the mass "performance" market continues to be happy with top trump numbers then manufacturers will just produce hyper hatches and not dedicate any resources to proper sports cars.
I really don't see Lotus producing anything under 60k from now on. Will the A110 be a one-off? Will an MR2 be released? Will Brexit ever happen?
This !! For me it's one of the most exciting cars of recent years and such a breath of fresh air that somebody is focusing on a small lightweight sports cars. Mazda deserve equal praise for the ND but it doesn't 'steer' like the Alpine ... in BBR tune (NA) the drivetrain is in another league though. Toyota still make the 86, yes a bit heavier but its still lightweight by most standards, and it runs 17" wheels & sensible sized rubber !!!! I really don't see Lotus producing anything under 60k from now on. Will the A110 be a one-off? Will an MR2 be released? Will Brexit ever happen?
Here's dreaming others will follow suit ...
Simon Owen said:
This !! For me it's one of the most exciting cars of recent years and such a breath of fresh air that somebody is focusing on a small lightweight sports cars. Mazda deserve equal praise for the ND but it doesn't 'steer' like the Alpine ... in BBR tune (NA) the drivetrain is in another league though. Toyota still make the 86, yes a bit heavier but its still lightweight by most standards, and it runs 17" wheels & sensible sized rubber !!!!
Here's dreaming others will follow suit ...
While I can't see the Elise replacement being enough of an all-rounder for me, I am encouraged by what Lotus have done with the Evora to think they have got their eye back on the ball. I'd like to see the Elise replacement as groundbreaking as its forebear was - even if it it's not for me.Here's dreaming others will follow suit ...
Pooh said:
Various dafties said exactly the same thing when the Alfa 4C came out, "it will depreciate like a brick", "I will buy one for half price in a couple of years" etc etc and they where wrong.
Even if they had been right about the depreciation, I doubt any of them would have bought one anyway.I didn't try for anything half the price, but I did test a 2016 Evora against the A110. Both awesome; I ordered an A110 because, erm, I liked it more. And that's knowing full well that a 2-year-old V6 Evora has probably done almost all the depreciation it's going to. I ordered the wrong spec A110 for minimising depreciation too - I ordered what I wanted, with the stuff I wanted, because my plan is to drive it until we run out of petrol, then run it on alcohol, Pepsi, or blood as necessary.
Anyone moaning about depreciation was never in the market for a sports car; they're too busy making spreadsheets tracking MPG and servicing costs for their joyless tin-box-with-wheels.
bcr5784 said:
While I can't see the Elise replacement being enough of an all-rounder for me, I am encouraged by what Lotus have done with the Evora to think they have got their eye back on the ball. I'd like to see the Elise replacement as groundbreaking as its forebear was - even if it it's not for me.
Lotus should look very carefully at the A110 & ND ... there are attributes to both of these cars that they should be doing, IMHO of course !! I have nothing against the Elise but some of us want something that is more practical but still properly small and lightweight. For me something that sits squarely between the Elise/Exige and Boxter/Cayman would be perfect, the branding is hardly difficult is it, call it an Elan rather than an Elise !!!!The engine & gearbox may not be for some but as far as size, weight, packaging, handling & performance Alpine have nailed this.
Simon Owen said:
Lotus should look very carefully at the A110 & ND ... there are attributes to both of these cars that they should be doing, IMHO of course !! I have nothing against the Elise but some of us want something that is more practical but still properly small and lightweight. For me something that sits squarely between the Elise/Exige and Boxter/Cayman would be perfect, the branding is hardly difficult is it, call it an Elan rather than an Elise !!!!
The engine & gearbox may not be for some but as far as size, weight, packaging, handling & performance Alpine have nailed this.
Didn't Lotus try something similar with the Lotus Europa about a decade ago? Wasn't that a similar ethos to the A110?The engine & gearbox may not be for some but as far as size, weight, packaging, handling & performance Alpine have nailed this.
2 litre turbo, manual box, light weight, more luxury than an Elise for longer journeys
Edited by s m on Tuesday 11th December 10:41
Oops.! Think I've wandered onto a car finance website where people are discussing the financials around products which aren't really financially justifiable..
Anyway, I think an Late S2 Elise S (217bhp, supercharged) is probably a slightly better comparison to the A110 than an early Exige S2 NA, IMO.
It has a more usable engine performance (as the SC adds much needed low / mid torque) and is (relatively) better on creature comforts like A/C, traction control, twin airbags etc.
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Anyway, I think an Late S2 Elise S (217bhp, supercharged) is probably a slightly better comparison to the A110 than an early Exige S2 NA, IMO.
It has a more usable engine performance (as the SC adds much needed low / mid torque) and is (relatively) better on creature comforts like A/C, traction control, twin airbags etc.
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
gofasterrosssco said:
Anyway, I think an Late S2 Elise S (217bhp, supercharged) is probably a slightly better comparison to the A110 than an early Exige S2 NA, IMO.
It has a more usable engine performance (as the SC adds much needed low / mid torque) and is (relatively) better on creature comforts like A/C, traction control, twin airbags etc.
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
The Elise/Exige add an extra level of rawness and driver appeal that the Alpine will always struggle with due to the weight difference, the flip side to this is that the Alpine is in a completely different class in terms of useability but at the same time offers some of the attributes of the true lightweights. This is what makes the whole package so exciting for those that want something more practical than say an Exige but smaller, lighter and more nimble than a Cayman.It has a more usable engine performance (as the SC adds much needed low / mid torque) and is (relatively) better on creature comforts like A/C, traction control, twin airbags etc.
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
s m said:
Didn't Lotus try something similar with the Lotus Europa about a decade ago? Wasn't that a similar ethos to the A110?
2 litre turbo, manual box, light weight, more luxury than an Elise for longer journeys
On paper looked like a possible star. Unfortunately the press didn't like it, though I can't remember why. As you say nothing wrong with the ethos - but you've got to deliver on the ethos. You could say the same of the Alfa 4c (different ethos, but potentially something very special) 2 litre turbo, manual box, light weight, more luxury than an Elise for longer journeys
Edited by s m on Tuesday 11th December 10:41
As I recall the press didn't like that the Europa was softer than the Elise.
I've never driven an Elise (sorry, world), but I did try the Europa S, and it didn't strike me as soft. Very quick, lovely twitchy steering, but an absolute pain to get in and out of and very stripped back and basic inside.
The A110 is much more like a "normal" car - it's got all the stuff you'd expect in a modern car - but it doesn't have that steering that's constantly chatting away about every bit of gravel on the road. This is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your preferences. It's certainly not numb but it does filter more.
I've never driven an Elise (sorry, world), but I did try the Europa S, and it didn't strike me as soft. Very quick, lovely twitchy steering, but an absolute pain to get in and out of and very stripped back and basic inside.
The A110 is much more like a "normal" car - it's got all the stuff you'd expect in a modern car - but it doesn't have that steering that's constantly chatting away about every bit of gravel on the road. This is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on your preferences. It's certainly not numb but it does filter more.
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