RE: BMW M5(s): Pic of the Week

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

Ares said:

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

Err.... because the E34 stopped being made 20yrs ago, and the 39 stopped being made 15yrs ago. And there have been three M5s since the E39?

And because when they offered, almost no-one did. And they only stopped making Manual M5s in 2017 (which was your original question), and when both gearboxes were offered, auto outsold manual around 10:1. As it did with just about every car on sale.

I thought it was 2012 when the M5 went auto only and the E60 was offered in the USA with manual so are you saying worldwide it was 10/1?

No, the F10 was available as a Manual in some markets. But it didn't sell.

Approve or not, but buyers of new performance cars, on the whole, just don't buy manuals.

Auto has its place but so has manual a la GT3.

[Ares]

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

Err.... because the E34 stopped being made 20yrs ago, and the 39 stopped being made 15yrs ago. And there have been three M5s since the E39?

And because when they offered, almost no-one did. And they only stopped making Manual M5s in 2017 (which was your original question), and when both gearboxes were offered, auto outsold manual around 10:1. As it did with just about every car on sale.

I thought it was 2012 when the M5 went auto only and the E60 was offered in the USA with manual so are you saying worldwide it was 10/1?

No, the F10 was available as a Manual in some markets. But it didn't sell.

Approve or not, but buyers of new performance cars, on the whole, just don't buy manuals.

Auto has its place but so has manual a la GT3.

I don't question your opinion....but when the massive majority of the buyers of these cars (new) prefer the auto, Manufacturers would be silly to waste development time on a minimally demanded product.

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

Ares said:

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

Err.... because the E34 stopped being made 20yrs ago, and the 39 stopped being made 15yrs ago. And there have been three M5s since the E39?

And because when they offered, almost no-one did. And they only stopped making Manual M5s in 2017 (which was your original question), and when both gearboxes were offered, auto outsold manual around 10:1. As it did with just about every car on sale.

I thought it was 2012 when the M5 went auto only and the E60 was offered in the USA with manual so are you saying worldwide it was 10/1?

No, the F10 was available as a Manual in some markets. But it didn't sell.

Approve or not, but buyers of new performance cars, on the whole, just don't buy manuals.

Auto has its place but so has manual a la GT3.

I don't question your opinion....but when the massive majority of the buyers of these cars (new) prefer the auto, Manufacturers would be silly to waste development time on a minimally demanded product.

But this is where I disagree with yours, when the E60 came out BMW decided for the car buying public that manual had no place and then sold it in manual form to the biggest auto country then wondered why it didn’t sell.

[Ares]

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

But this is where I disagree with yours, when the E60 came out BMW decided for the car buying public that manual had no place and then sold it in manual form to the biggest auto country then wondered why it didn’t sell.

BMW knew it wouldn't sell. If, for one second, BMW thought they would sell manual M5s in anything like a reasonable quantity outside the US, why wouldn't they offer them? They are there to sell and make money.

You may not like it, but new performance car buyers don't buy manuals anymore because Autos are so good. Ditto just about EVERY car that is sold in both formats today.

The US might be the Auto capital of the world, but they are also, ironically, the biggest buyers of manual sportscars.

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

Ares said:

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

But this is where I disagree with yours, when the E60 came out BMW decided for the car buying public that manual had no place and then sold it in manual form to the biggest auto country then wondered why it didn’t sell.

BMW knew it wouldn't sell. If, for one second, BMW thought they would sell manual M5s in anything like a reasonable quantity outside the US, why wouldn't they offer them? They are there to sell and make money.

You may not like it, but new performance car buyers don't buy manuals anymore because Autos are so good. Ditto just about EVERY car that is sold in both formats today.

Because a huge majority of the car buying public use them like white goods and the fact that auto is easy to use and they can look like racing drivers makes it the easy choice.
I wonder if real car enthusiasts were given the choice how close the numbers would be especially if they were not penalised by the monthlies like with a M2 which is near £200 a month dearer for the more expensive car.

Edited by TheStigsWeeBrother on Monday 10th December 20:10

[Ares]

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

But this is where I disagree with yours, when the E60 came out BMW decided for the car buying public that manual had no place and then sold it in manual form to the biggest auto country then wondered why it didn’t sell.

BMW knew it wouldn't sell. If, for one second, BMW thought they would sell manual M5s in anything like a reasonable quantity outside the US, why wouldn't they offer them? They are there to sell and make money.

You may not like it, but new performance car buyers don't buy manuals anymore because Autos are so good. Ditto just about EVERY car that is sold in both formats today.

Because a huge majority of the car buying public use them like white goods and the fact that auto is easy to use and they can look like racing drivers makes it the easy choice.
I wonder if real car enthusiasts were given the choice how close the numbers would be especially if they were not penalised by the monthlies like with a M2 which is near £200 a month dearer for the more expensive car.

Edited by TheStigsWeeBrother on Monday 10th December 20:10

Real car enthusiasts are given the choice - they are just as able to buy a car as anyone.

You are viewing this the wrong way around, it's reduced demand, not supply. Manufacturers stopped making manuals because people didn't buy them.....

And where there is a choice, the auto is almost always more expensive.

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

Ares said:

Real car enthusiasts are given the choice - they are just as able to buy a car as anyone.

You are viewing this the wrong way around, it's reduced demand, not supply. Manufacturers stopped making manuals because people didn't buy them.....

And where there is a choice, the auto is almost always more expensive.

Not if you want an AMG,RS,Ferrari,McLaren,AlfaQ etc.
The M2 is cheaper to lease if it’s auto which is dearer to buy outright but cheaper to rent.

Anyway the choice is getting smaller which is a pity. IMO

[Ares]

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

Real car enthusiasts are given the choice - they are just as able to buy a car as anyone.

You are viewing this the wrong way around, it's reduced demand, not supply. Manufacturers stopped making manuals because people didn't buy them.....

And where there is a choice, the auto is almost always more expensive.

Not if you want an AMG,RS,Ferrari,McLaren,AlfaQ etc.
The M2 is cheaper to lease if it’s auto which is dearer to buy outright but cheaper to rent.

Anyway the choice is getting smaller which is a pity. IMO

Yes but of those cars that offered both, they, have ditched the manuals because they weren't selling, the rest responded to the mass market. Beards may lament the loss of the old fashioned stick shift, but car manufacturers don't car about appeasing a miniscule number of beards, they car about the 1,000s that will buy the car.

And lease figures are reflective of onward demand. The M2 DCT's lower lease cost is due to its lower depreciation.

It is a shame that the manual box is becoming obsolete, but as a 991.2 GT3 owning friend, who opted for a PDK over a Manual, commented:

"So here’s the thing with a manual gearbox, in this day and age it’s a step backwards technologically in order to take a step forward emotionally. This evolution even has the single mass clutch for even less rattle box character and as a result it is a ninja precise tarmac terrorist which is exactly what you want when you’re in control of a road car with a race car engine in that revs to 9000rpm quicker than you can believe. The last 1000rpm from 8-9k whips into a crescendo with such ferocity you’d be lucky to make the most of it with a manual in quite the same way the PDK does."


I've driven my car in manual gearbox format. It's still lovely, but it is league behind the Auto in pace, fluidity and overall drive, even when giving it 'the beans' - when you factor in doing the school run, sitting in traffic and the 1,001 other mundane jobs the car does, the auto becomes a godsend.

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

Ares said:

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

Ares said:

Real car enthusiasts are given the choice - they are just as able to buy a car as anyone.

You are viewing this the wrong way around, it's reduced demand, not supply. Manufacturers stopped making manuals because people didn't buy them.....

And where there is a choice, the auto is almost always more expensive.

Not if you want an AMG,RS,Ferrari,McLaren,AlfaQ etc.
The M2 is cheaper to lease if it’s auto which is dearer to buy outright but cheaper to rent.

Anyway the choice is getting smaller which is a pity. IMO

Yes but of those cars that offered both, they, have ditched the manuals because they weren't selling, the rest responded to the mass market. Beards may lament the loss of the old fashioned stick shift, but car manufacturers don't car about appeasing a miniscule number of beards, they car about the 1,000s that will buy the car.

And lease figures are reflective of onward demand. The M2 DCT's lower lease cost is due to its lower depreciation.

It is a shame that the manual box is becoming obsolete, but as a 991.2 GT3 owning friend, who opted for a PDK over a Manual, commented:

"So here’s the thing with a manual gearbox, in this day and age it’s a step backwards technologically in order to take a step forward emotionally. This evolution even has the single mass clutch for even less rattle box character and as a result it is a ninja precise tarmac terrorist which is exactly what you want when you’re in control of a road car with a race car engine in that revs to 9000rpm quicker than you can believe. The last 1000rpm from 8-9k whips into a crescendo with such ferocity you’d be lucky to make the most of it with a manual in quite the same way the PDK does."


I've driven my car in manual gearbox format. It's still lovely, but it is league behind the Auto in pace, fluidity and overall drive, even when giving it 'the beans' - when you factor in doing the school run, sitting in traffic and the 1,001 other mundane jobs the car does, the auto becomes a godsend.

You either get it or YOU don’t.
There is no right or wrong just what you enjoy,a motorbike with an auto would just be a fast scooter for me.
Given the choice I would have a barge with auto but a fun car with manual so I am not anti auto I have had many autos DCT and selespeed but I just prefer the interaction I get with manual.
Anyway back to the M5 the new one is just to large imo.

[Ares]

TheStigsWeeBrother said:

You either get it or YOU don’t.
There is no right or wrong just what you enjoy,a motorbike with an auto would just be a fast scooter for me.
Given the choice I would have a barge with auto but a fun car with manual so I am not anti auto I have had many autos DCT and selespeed but I just prefer the interaction I get with manual.
Anyway back to the M5 the new one is just to large imo.

I do get it...I'm just answering your question as to why BMW, and every other manufacturer, has increasingly dumped the manual 'box.

(and do you cite the M5 as being the fun car you mentioned above?)



As for too big.... <facepalm>

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

Ares said:

I do get it...I'm just answering your question as to why BMW, and every other manufacturer, has increasingly dumped the manual 'box.

(and do you cite the M5 as being the fun car you mentioned above?)



As for too big.... <facepalm>

No it wouldn’t be a fun car as it’s to big but it would be more enjoyable to drive for me if it was a manual.
And your not answering the question because bmw dumped the manual before they knew how many people wanted it with the E60.

Edited by TheStigsWeeBrother on Monday 10th December 21:24

[akirk]

I have driven Porsches / BMWs / Astons / Mercs / etc. with new Auto boxes - some are okay - not a single one of them is as good as my manual e39 M5 in terms of my choosing exactly the gear I want, when I want it...

it simply depends on the balance you want between driver controlling the car, or computer controlling the car - I want 100% driver controlling it even if I make mistakes - I do not want a computer interfering...

others want different mixes...

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

akirk said:

I have driven Porsches / BMWs / Astons / Mercs / etc. with new Auto boxes - some are okay - not a single one of them is as good as my manual e39 M5 in terms of my choosing exactly the gear I want, when I want it...

it simply depends on the balance you want between driver controlling the car, or computer controlling the car - I want 100% driver controlling it even if I make mistakes - I do not want a computer interfering...

others want different mixes...

[Baddie]

A “driver’s” or “sports car” is a car that does what the driver wants it to do - even if it means making a tit of themselves.

The E34 M5 was great because it didn’t get in the way of that. Only ever helped you out, with no need for “modes”

[Niffty951]

I get very tired of being told no-one buys high performance manuals when I've always bought them to a fault and now no-one sells them new.

I also get tired of being told by salesmen that modern autos are better in every way until we go for a test drive and it fails to do what I want. Like grab the right gear to accelerate at a roundabout,

Or prevent me from downchanging as I approach the apex because the g-sensor says there's too much lateral g-force, then change down just as I'm straightening the wheel and break traction because I'm disconnected from the torque applied at the wheels,

Or as a car pulls in from the fast lane, pause all acceleration to drop another gear for 1000rpm before getting back the the gear it would have been more suited in,

Or downchanging with a jerk and wake my sleeping passengers when I try to make progeess out of a bend smoothly at night rather than just pulling cleanly in the gear above.

Then I hear 'well that isn't the strongest point of autos but..'


...where's my soapbox

Edited by Niffty951 on Monday 10th December 22:29

[Niffty951]

Ares said:

"which is exactly what you want when you’re in control of a road car with a race car engine"

This line I cannot agree with. When I drive a manual there is no argument about the torque applied at the wheels. I'm in absolute control of it with the movement of my toe. After a while driving the car I can very precisely process any situation and apply the torque I want for any given situation.

In an auto, I press the throttle and a second processor makes a judgement using all the information it can read at that moment. Much of the time we may agree but some of the time we don't or, as it cannot read my mind, it misunderstands what I want to do. In these moments I feel deeply disappointed about the car I'm driving.

This disappointment means I had to choose an Audi S3 for my daily commute (with the wrong engine) because someone at Audi read his crystal ball and decided to only offer the right engine with the wrong gearbox. This makes me very angry... and then I write angry posts on forums rather than just enjoying driving my Audi RS like I should be driving. Dreaming of Group B as I sit in traffic.

Edited by Niffty951 on Monday 10th December 22:43

[TheStigsWeeBrother]

This why my next car will probably be the M2 Comp which can be had in manual and with a proper handbrake.

[Don Colione]

If you subscribe to the reasoning of some on here, it would seem that full autonomy (no steering wheel or 'pedals' of any kind) will be the ultimate height of motoring perfection, and a necessary response to overall consumer desires!

That is, until you are one of the lemmings screaming in terror, as your "perfect" auto careens you into a guardrail or some other precariously placed object, like a poor unsuspecting pedestrian.

So many other scenarios I could come up with; of (lesser and greater) statistical possibility and significance....

But hey, the same moneygrubbing manufacturers (VAG, FORD, JLR, GM, FCA, Tesla, Mercedes, BMW, Renault-Nissan VS. Toyota(#1)) who told me that "nobody's buying manuals" ... told me that this 'technology' - where I give up all my control over the vehicle - Is the "future", and the greatest thing since sliced bread! So they must be right!!!!

Wait, didn't Toyota largely opt out of the diesel "path" as well; foregoing it, and losing considerable market share in doing so, because it was too polluting - to pioneer and pursue the hybrid tech that the others are flocking to now?

AND, Especially, since there is currently billions in worldwide market share just lined up, of consumers frothing at the mouth; in eager anticipation of purchasing fully-electric and autonomous cars vs. ICE alternatives!

[bodhi]

I definitely prefer a manual gearbox, however if that gearbox is attached to an F1 derived V10 that revs to 9000rpm, and is clothed in my own personal favourite 5 Series shape I can probably be flexible

[greenarrow]

..I see both sides of the argument but personally I'd take a manual gearbox in something basic like an MX-5 or Toyota GT86, but probably an auto now in most other things. My mate has got an auto Mitsubishi ASX SUV diesel and its really impressed me how smooth and responsive it is (from the passenger seat) compared with my manual diesel. The autobox seems to smooth out the lag and lunge that all four cylinder diesels suffer with. My neighbours Passat DSG was the same.

One of the cars on my "next car shortlist" has been the BMW M135i and tbh I think I'd go with the auto-box option in that car. I also disagree with the general assertion that all proper car enthusiasts would take a manual option in something like a Porsche or Ferrari. I really think its down to personal preference.