RE: BMW M5(s): Pic of the Week

RE: BMW M5(s): Pic of the Week

Author
Discussion

akirk

5,377 posts

113 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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greenarrow said:
My mate has got an auto Mitsubishi ASX SUV diesel and its really impressed me how smooth and responsive it is (from the passenger seat) compared with my manual diesel. The autobox seems to smooth out the lag and lunge that all four cylinder diesels suffer with. My neighbours Passat DSG was the same.
You mean that it smooths out the driver's inability to drive?! biggrin
I doubt many drivers know how to double-declutch / rev match / heel and toe / actually drive the car sensitively so that the gears / revs / speed all match...
The e39 M5 is a delight - it helps the driver to learn how to actually drive - one of the main reasons I bought mine, and my driving has improved considerably since... I think we are building a generation of people who drive cars like go-karts - fast pedal / slow pedal - with no intelligence involved...

so maybe for the vast majority it makes sense... but this is meant to be PH and therefore to have some form of enthusiasm for actual driving, not being driven...

Ares

11,000 posts

119 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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TheStigsWeeBrother said:
Ares said:
I do get it...I'm just answering your question as to why BMW, and every other manufacturer, has increasingly dumped the manual 'box.

(and do you cite the M5 as being the fun car you mentioned above?)



As for too big.... <facepalm>
No it wouldn’t be a fun car as it’s to big but it would be more enjoyable to drive for me if it was a manual.
And your not answering the question because bmw dumped the manual before they knew how many people wanted it with the E60.

Edited by TheStigsWeeBrother on Monday 10th December 21:24
Because they will research, and use data from their other cars, and use the data from the segments they are going to compete within. Manual large Sports Saloons are as commercially viable as a pair of three-legged trousers.

Every other sports saloon (and just about every other performance car) that has been offered with a manual alongside a modern auto has seen manual sales reduce to near zero, and those that only have an automatic options see sales unaffected.

TheStigsWeeBrother

344 posts

64 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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Ares said:
Because they will research, and use data from their other cars, and use the data from the segments they are going to compete within. Manual large Sports Saloons are as commercially viable as a pair of three-legged trousers.

Every other sports saloon (and just about every other performance car) that has been offered with a manual alongside a modern auto has seen manual sales reduce to near zero, and those that only have an automatic options see sales unaffected.
As I said you either get it or....

Jonny TVR

4,533 posts

280 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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Ares said:
No, the F10 was available as a Manual in some markets. But it didn't sell.

Approve or not, but buyers of new performance cars, on the whole, just don't buy manuals.
I use my F90 as a daily driver and will do 17K miles a year as I did in my F10. I used to think that I would prefer a manual but to be honest I don't on these cars. The gear changes are so rapid and to fully enjoy the immense power you need an auto. You can still have fun with the paddles (shame they are steering wheel mounted as I prefer fixed).

theboss

6,878 posts

218 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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Jonny TVR said:
I use my F90 as a daily driver and will do 17K miles a year as I did in my F10. I used to think that I would prefer a manual but to be honest I don't on these cars. The gear changes are so rapid and to fully enjoy the immense power you need an auto. You can still have fun with the paddles (shame they are steering wheel mounted as I prefer fixed).
Out of interest how are you finding the ZF8 compared to the DCT in the F10?

I always felt the DCT was a great compromise between manual and auto and suited the M5 well especially as a high mileage daily cruiser of a car in which manual might become a pain in the arse and conventional auto might feel a bit too slushy and disconnected.

Ares

11,000 posts

119 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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TheStigsWeeBrother said:
Ares said:
Because they will research, and use data from their other cars, and use the data from the segments they are going to compete within. Manual large Sports Saloons are as commercially viable as a pair of three-legged trousers.

Every other sports saloon (and just about every other performance car) that has been offered with a manual alongside a modern auto has seen manual sales reduce to near zero, and those that only have an automatic options see sales unaffected.
As I said you either get it or....
Likewise. wink

Ares

11,000 posts

119 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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theboss said:
Out of interest how are you finding the ZF8 compared to the DCT in the F10?

I always felt the DCT was a great compromise between manual and auto and suited the M5 well especially as a high mileage daily cruiser of a car in which manual might become a pain in the arse and conventional auto might feel a bit too slushy and disconnected.
Maybe 5yrs ago, but a modern, well-tuned ZF8 is as quick and responsive as a top level DCT (or similar) - so much so, jounros confuse them for them. Slushbox to more (unless you choose it to be...which is a whole new level of appeal)

theboss

6,878 posts

218 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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I’ve driven plenty of ZF8 but appreciate that the F90 or any other high performance implementation might be very different.

What I like about the DCT is not so much the speed but the fact that it’s inherently locked up through every gear, bounces the engine off the limiter in manual mode etc. so feels more manual than auto.

If the ZF8 in the F90 is indisguiable - or better in this respect - that’s great to hear.

Ares

11,000 posts

119 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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theboss said:
I’ve driven plenty of ZF8 but appreciate that the F90 or any other high performance implementation might be very different.

What I like about the DCT is not so much the speed but the fact that it’s inherently locked up through every gear, bounces the engine off the limiter in manual mode etc. so feels more manual than auto.

If the ZF8 in the F90 is indisguiable - or better in this respect - that’s great to hear.
My last 3 cars have had ZF8 boxes. All three have felt like totally different gearboxes, the current one being more like a DCT than the M3 DCT was.

TheStigsWeeBrother

344 posts

64 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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Ares said:
TheStigsWeeBrother said:
Ares said:
Err.... because the E34 stopped being made 20yrs ago, and the 39 stopped being made 15yrs ago. And there have been three M5s since the E39?

And because when they offered, almost no-one did. And they only stopped making Manual M5s in 2017 (which was your original question), and when both gearboxes were offered, auto outsold manual around 10:1. As it did with just about every car on sale.
I thought it was 2012 when the M5 went auto only and the E60 was offered in the USA with manual so are you saying worldwide it was 10/1?
No, the F10 was available as a Manual in some markets. But it didn't sell.

Approve or not, but buyers of new performance cars, on the whole, just don't buy manuals.
Auto has its place but so has manual a la GT3.

Chestrockwell

2,624 posts

156 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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I think this manual v auto debate is down to the car in question, I’ve driven a DCT M4 and the last thing I thought the car needed was a manual box, second to third at full pelt was pretty dramatic.

Considering how heavy the steering is and how firm the ride is, I think, with a manual box, an M4 will be a chore to commute in every day compared to an auto.

I’ve also driven a DCT M2 and I think that car would suit a manual much more.

My brother has a manual E39 523i stop gap and that also suits the manual box given its low power output, it’s all relative I reckon. I can’t imagine shifting gears in a 500 bhp 9k rpm GT3 Porsche, but then again that’s down to me being an inexperienced driver.

Personally, if I had the choice, i wouldnt opt for a manual above 400 bhp.

TheStigsWeeBrother

344 posts

64 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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Chestrockwell said:
I think this manual v auto debate is down to the car in question, I’ve driven a DCT M4 and the last thing I thought the car needed was a manual box, second to third at full pelt was pretty dramatic.

Considering how heavy the steering is and how firm the ride is, I think, with a manual box, an M4 will be a chore to commute in every day compared to an auto.

I’ve also driven a DCT M2 and I think that car would suit a manual much more.

My brother has a manual E39 523i stop gap and that also suits the manual box given its low power output, it’s all relative I reckon. I can’t imagine shifting gears in a 500 bhp 9k rpm GT3 Porsche, but then again that’s down to me being an inexperienced driver.

Personally, if I had the choice, i wouldnt opt for a manual above 400 bhp.
M4 and the M2cp have the same engine.

Elysium

13,762 posts

186 months

Tuesday 11th December 2018
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I have always loved the extra engagement you get with manual gearboxes.

I can't see the point in an F10 M5 though. The amount of torque and pace available means that it is rare to get anywhere near the redline on the road and short-shifting a manual would just feel slow.

The DCT feels like a manual on steroids. In the most aggressive setting you get a proper punch in the back when shifting and the action is instant. If you use the paddles it also functions as true manual. You can bang off the redline as much as you want and it will not shift up for you.

It does seem to change down at very low speeds, but only at the point where you would stall.

I'm still not convinced about the torque converter box in the F90. However, I have not driven one yet and everyone seems to think it feels as snappy as the DCT.

Jonny TVR

4,533 posts

280 months

Wednesday 12th December 2018
quotequote all
theboss said:
Out of interest how are you finding the ZF8 compared to the DCT in the F10?

I always felt the DCT was a great compromise between manual and auto and suited the M5 well especially as a high mileage daily cruiser of a car in which manual might become a pain in the arse and conventional auto might feel a bit too slushy and disconnected.
The gear change is so quick, difficult to remember the F10 as last time I drove it was 2015 and driven a few cars inbetween. I went from driving my F90 to my 599 the other day and blimey the 599 gear change is slow compared to the BMW. i know its a bit ancient now but what a difference.

Jonny TVR

4,533 posts

280 months

Wednesday 12th December 2018
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Elysium said:
I have always loved the extra engagement you get with manual gearboxes.

I can't see the point in an F10 M5 though. The amount of torque and pace available means that it is rare to get anywhere near the redline on the road and short-shifting a manual would just feel slow.

I love manuals too .. love my e-type and Griffith but as a daily driver I don't want it on my M5

I redline my M5 probably every other day .. but then I do have some amazing driving roads right on my door step. The 4WD allows you do that almost regardless of the weather.

Ares

11,000 posts

119 months

Wednesday 12th December 2018
quotequote all
Jonny TVR said:
I love manuals too .. love my e-type and Griffith but as a daily driver I don't want it on my M5

I redline my M5 probably every other day .. but then I do have some amazing driving roads right on my door step. The 4WD allows you do that almost regardless of the weather.
Exactly. Manuals are great for cars you only drive with 100% focus. Otherwise a very set-up modern auto has it licked IMO.

Elysium

13,762 posts

186 months

Wednesday 12th December 2018
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Jonny TVR said:
Elysium said:
I have always loved the extra engagement you get with manual gearboxes.

I can't see the point in an F10 M5 though. The amount of torque and pace available means that it is rare to get anywhere near the redline on the road and short-shifting a manual would just feel slow.

I love manuals too .. love my e-type and Griffith but as a daily driver I don't want it on my M5

I redline my M5 probably every other day .. but then I do have some amazing driving roads right on my door step. The 4WD allows you do that almost regardless of the weather.
You are lucky. There are few places near me with enough space to open up my F10 M5.

I am sure that the 4WD will make a big difference as driving an F10 is a real exercise in restraint. Wheelspin at 70mph when you are not particularly trying for it makes you wary.

Habu71

927 posts

190 months

Wednesday 12th December 2018
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It always makes me smile when I see the gear-lever standing proud in an E39 M5,knowing what it’s attached to aswell is just so evocative.

Jonny TVR

4,533 posts

280 months

Thursday 13th December 2018
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Habu71 said:
It always makes me smile when I see the gear-lever standing proud in an E39 M5,knowing what it’s attached to aswell is just so evocative.
I know what you mean .. for me at some point I want to get a manual Ferrari instead of the paddles

TheStigsWeeBrother

344 posts

64 months

Thursday 13th December 2018
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Jonny TVR said:
Habu71 said:
It always makes me smile when I see the gear-lever standing proud in an E39 M5,knowing what it’s attached to aswell is just so evocative.
I know what you mean .. for me at some point I want to get a manual Ferrari instead of the paddles
It’s a work of art.