RE: BMW M340i xDrive prototype: Driven

[LocoBlade]

9k rpm said:

Mostly agree with this but find PSS pretty good in the wet if temps aren’t low.
I have Them on my M4 and at single figure temps there is definitely very little traction.
Get a bit of heat into them on warmer tarmac and they change dramatically.
Even in the wet on a warm day in the summer grip was excellent; a dry cold winter’s day the TC light is on at anything more than a gentle 1/4 throttle travel.
Can see why people are saying next M3/4 will be AWD.
This M340i with xdrive in touring really appeals to me though, would be lovely if the next M3 will have a touring AWD variant too.

Yep they're fine in summer rain, I was speaking the the context of "winter" usage which for me so far has ranged from low teens wet and dry days down to about -3c on a couple of frosty mornings. Agree about the M340i, my M240 will do me fine for the next 2-3 years at least but I can see this being top of the list of replacements when I decide to change, that's if a new M240i based on the same platform probably due for release around that time isn't even better!

[Limpet]

9k rpm said:

LocoBlade said:

I've come to the conclusion Pilot Supersports just don't work very well below about 10c unless you have a spare racetrack to get sufficient heat into them first. I scrabbled around on them in my M240 last winter but swapped to Crossclimates a month ago and it's proving to be a much nicer car to drive even in mild winter conditions with those on each corner, more comfort, less road noise and varying from slightly to leagues better grip and traction as temperatures drop or precipitation levels increase.

Mostly agree with this but find PSS pretty good in the wet if temps aren’t low.
I have Them on my M4 and at single figure temps there is definitely very little traction.
Get a bit of heat into them on warmer tarmac and they change dramatically.
Even in the wet on a warm day in the summer grip was excellent; a dry cold winter’s day the TC light is on at anything more than a gentle 1/4 throttle travel.
Can see why people are saying next M3/4 will be AWD.
This M340i with xdrive in touring really appeals to me though, would be lovely if the next M3 will have a touring AWD variant too.

I agree with all the above. The PSS are brilliant tyres in all conditions as long as the temperature is in double digit °C. Below that, they really struggle, even in the bone dry.

[Wills2]

Huskyman said:

C.MW said:

I hope they fixed the weak chassis from the F30. Yes it was light, but it wasn't rigid enough to form the proper basis for the full-cream M variants and as a result the M3/M4 suffered numb steering and general lack of feedback through every touch point. The heavier competitors like the RC-F and AMG C63 were a lot better in that regard. If you can't make it light AND rigid, I suggest you make it rigid first and go from there; a rigid structure is a must for any true sports cars.

Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 12th December 04:43

Could you qualify this statement please? I cannot find any info on the AMG C63?
The figure F30 stands at 29300NM per degree and 40000 for the F80 M3, That’s more rigid than a carbon tubbed car like the Carrera GT.
I test drove an F80 and one thing it didn’t feel like was sloppy or imprecise.

He can't I've just sold My F80 m3 after 90,000 miles in 3 years it was the most rigid and stiff car I've had, the front end was as sharp as knife, he's talking nonsense but this is PH.

[flyinglotus]

LocoBlade said:

I've come to the conclusion Pilot Supersports just don't work very well below about 10c unless you have a spare racetrack to get sufficient heat into them first. I scrabbled around on them in my M240 last winter but swapped to Crossclimates a month ago and it's proving to be a much nicer car to drive even in mild winter conditions with those on each corner, more comfort, less road noise and varying from slightly to leagues better grip and traction as temperatures drop or precipitation levels increase.

No summer tyres 'turn on' below around the 15c mark.... some tyres are higher for example R888's won't do anything till 20c, it's in the manufacture tyre specs, i have to laugh when co-workers tell me their xDrive/Quattro cars are useless in the snow and the first thing I ask is what tyres are on the car... their response is usually.. 'tyres it came on'..... ie OEM pilot sport/ goodyear eagle run flats in the bmw case ... which on all accounts are useless in the tricky stuff and not designed for these conditions...

for a start the compound is too hard, and the tread patterns are designed for lateral grip in dry / damp / wet conditions.... all season and winter tyres work totally different, starting with much soft compounds, which 'turn on' at temps reaching 0c to generate some movement, this allows them to move around and find grip by using patterns that generate grip in not just a lateral plane but in other planes, these tyres will often consist of an 'x' or '+' crossed patterns.. as opposed to 'I I I' or '/\' Chevron type patterns (summer) this is so that when the wheel moves around in the snow, which they will they will find grip and traction as it drives forward, they also have tend to have greater tread depths... summer tyres assume no snow on the ground for one, it is not a requirement in the design. I have 7 years first hand racing experience /knowledge and a degree in motorsport engineering to back it up, so I have covered tyre compounds extensively.

For anyone wanting to fit a proper tyre to get them through this winter i would recommend the new continental allseason contacts without hesitation.

[Kawasicki]

flyinglotus said:

LocoBlade said:

I've come to the conclusion Pilot Supersports just don't work very well below about 10c unless you have a spare racetrack to get sufficient heat into them first. I scrabbled around on them in my M240 last winter but swapped to Crossclimates a month ago and it's proving to be a much nicer car to drive even in mild winter conditions with those on each corner, more comfort, less road noise and varying from slightly to leagues better grip and traction as temperatures drop or precipitation levels increase.

No summer tyres 'turn on' below around the 15c mark.... some tyres are higher for example R888's won't do anything till 20c, it's in the manufacture tyre specs, i have to laugh when co-workers tell me their xDrive/Quattro cars are useless in the snow and the first thing I ask is what tyres are on the car... their response is usually.. 'tyres it came on'..... ie OEM pilot sport/ goodyear eagle run flats in the bmw case ... which on all accounts are useless in the tricky stuff and not designed for these conditions...

for a start the compound is too hard, and the tread patterns are designed for lateral grip in dry / damp / wet conditions.... all season and winter tyres work totally different, starting with much soft compounds, which 'turn on' at temps reaching 0c to generate some movement, this allows them to move around and find grip by using patterns that generate grip in not just a lateral plane but in other planes, these tyres will often consist of an 'x' or '+' crossed patterns.. as opposed to 'I I I' or '/\' Chevron type patterns (summer) this is so that when the wheel moves around in the snow, which they will they will find grip and traction as it drives forward, they also have tend to have greater tread depths... summer tyres assume no snow on the ground for one, it is not a requirement in the design. I have 7 years first hand racing experience /knowledge and a degree in motorsport engineering to back it up, so I have covered tyre compounds extensively.

For anyone wanting to fit a proper tyre to get them through this winter i would recommend the new continental allseason contacts without hesitation.

The temperatures you quote, what are they referring to? Air temp, road surface temp, or tyre tread surface temp?

How about dry braking performance on a cold winters day? I’ve tested summer tyres that were much better than winter tyres.

Road surface roughness has a fairly big influence on tyre grip, winter tyres work well on wet, polished surfaces, whereas summers can work better on rough, dry surfaces.

I just fitted new Michelin crossclimate+ yesterday, might try the new Contis next time, though it will take a few miles to wear out the Michelins.

[Deep]

BMWs don't do much for me but I'd definitely consider a touring version of one of these as my family car.

[Ares]

Wills2 said:

Huskyman said:

C.MW said:

I hope they fixed the weak chassis from the F30. Yes it was light, but it wasn't rigid enough to form the proper basis for the full-cream M variants and as a result the M3/M4 suffered numb steering and general lack of feedback through every touch point. The heavier competitors like the RC-F and AMG C63 were a lot better in that regard. If you can't make it light AND rigid, I suggest you make it rigid first and go from there; a rigid structure is a must for any true sports cars.

Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 12th December 04:43

Could you qualify this statement please? I cannot find any info on the AMG C63?
The figure F30 stands at 29300NM per degree and 40000 for the F80 M3, That’s more rigid than a carbon tubbed car like the Carrera GT.
I test drove an F80 and one thing it didn’t feel like was sloppy or imprecise.

He can't I've just sold My F80 m3 after 90,000 miles in 3 years it was the most rigid and stiff car I've had, the front end was as sharp as knife, he's talking nonsense but this is PH.

I agree. One of the reasons I walked past the M3 on favour of the Alfa was it was too stiff. Too uncompromising.

[Ares]

flyinglotus said:

LocoBlade said:

I've come to the conclusion Pilot Supersports just don't work very well below about 10c unless you have a spare racetrack to get sufficient heat into them first. I scrabbled around on them in my M240 last winter but swapped to Crossclimates a month ago and it's proving to be a much nicer car to drive even in mild winter conditions with those on each corner, more comfort, less road noise and varying from slightly to leagues better grip and traction as temperatures drop or precipitation levels increase.

No summer tyres 'turn on' below around the 15c mark.... some tyres are higher for example R888's won't do anything till 20c, it's in the manufacture tyre specs, i have to laugh when co-workers tell me their xDrive/Quattro cars are useless in the snow and the first thing I ask is what tyres are on the car... their response is usually.. 'tyres it came on'..... ie OEM pilot sport/ goodyear eagle run flats in the bmw case ... which on all accounts are useless in the tricky stuff and not designed for these conditions...

for a start the compound is too hard, and the tread patterns are designed for lateral grip in dry / damp / wet conditions.... all season and winter tyres work totally different, starting with much soft compounds, which 'turn on' at temps reaching 0c to generate some movement, this allows them to move around and find grip by using patterns that generate grip in not just a lateral plane but in other planes, these tyres will often consist of an 'x' or '+' crossed patterns.. as opposed to 'I I I' or '/\' Chevron type patterns (summer) this is so that when the wheel moves around in the snow, which they will they will find grip and traction as it drives forward, they also have tend to have greater tread depths... summer tyres assume no snow on the ground for one, it is not a requirement in the design. I have 7 years first hand racing experience /knowledge and a degree in motorsport engineering to back it up, so I have covered tyre compounds extensively.

For anyone wanting to fit a proper tyre to get them through this winter i would recommend the new continental allseason contacts without hesitation.

With respect. Bullst.

I've done 20,000 miles on two sets of P-Zero Corsas. They dropped off below 5 degrees or so, but were fine above that.

I've just put MPS4S on and they Arte 99% as good, but in -2 dry conditions last night were amazing.

[9k rpm]

LocoBlade said:

9k rpm said:

Mostly agree with this but find PSS pretty good in the wet if temps aren’t low.
I have Them on my M4 and at single figure temps there is definitely very little traction.
Get a bit of heat into them on warmer tarmac and they change dramatically.
Even in the wet on a warm day in the summer grip was excellent; a dry cold winter’s day the TC light is on at anything more than a gentle 1/4 throttle travel.
Can see why people are saying next M3/4 will be AWD.
This M340i with xdrive in touring really appeals to me though, would be lovely if the next M3 will have a touring AWD variant too.

Yep they're fine in summer rain, I was speaking the the context of "winter" usage which for me so far has ranged from low teens wet and dry days down to about -3c on a couple of frosty mornings. Agree about the M340i, my M240 will do me fine for the next 2-3 years at least but I can see this being top of the list of replacements when I decide to change, that's if a new M240i based on the same platform probably due for release around that time isn't even better!

Think I’ll try PS4S next as they seem to get good feedback in cold conditions for not much trade off in the dry although a bit more sidewall flex apparently. Don’t think I’m enough of a driving god to notice anyway especially given my M4 is a convertible. It does have its positives in the cold though with the air scarf and heated steering wheel. Toasty!

[Billy_Whizzzz]

Unquestionably, the worst written piece ever.

[jl4069]

Does anyone know if the 4WD system in this new car is 100% of power going to the rear wheels, and then with the option of pushing it forwards, or is it like it was before with a small-ish portion (35%?) of power always going to the front wheels?

"Get beyond about a quarter turn of opposite lock, mind you, and the xDrive system does what four-wheel drive systems ultimately all do: starts feeding torque to the front wheels to bring the axles back into line "

This quote from the article makes it seem like their is no power initially getting to the front wheels?

[Onehp]

I don't agree on the article that the engine is the big news. The B58 engine was already the best part of the previous gen. Rather, I'm really stoked about the chassis work and that M-diff in the rear, the latter is unique in this class on rwd based all-wheel drive, and something I have 'longed for'. The resulting dynamic chassis behaviour also sounds like a dream, playful/controllable but also safe/capable. No longer is it either or. And while of course there now is the M5 and co, this actually is in my eyes perhaps a more desirable package, basically a modern version of a E34 M5 3.8... Touring! I need the space... And it won't depreciate a 320d the first year either...

and if I spec it new and don't get most of the gadgets, it might even stay below 1700kg kerb, which is just about where my mental limit goes for something that has to entertain in the twisties... Or maybe a 330 with diff will be plenty and perhaps better being suitably lighter, have to try them when I can...

Oh as for the PSS in low temps, try running them at a lower pressure so they hard cold rubber heats up a bit more, I have them cold at a mere 30-32psi... 'hot' the are perhaps 35psi then... Still not the best at this point, but it works for me...

Edited by Onehp on Wednesday 12th December 21:02

[mikey P 500]

Find it strange that BMW and Mercedes and Audi all make their products so similar. If you wanted a 3.0 turbo german small saloon with 4wd, then s4 and c43 already very good cars. BMW could have kept their car RWD at least as option so had some sort of USP.
I expect will be a very nice car but sounds so similar to rivals.

[jjr1]

[quote=C.MW]I guess it's something you'd notce if you're used to it and drive it back to back with its competitors. The general numbness is the main reason (along with the synthetic-feeling turbo engine) I sold it only 5 months after I'd purchased. After a brief time with a previous generation C63 AMG, now I drive an IS-F. Both feel noticeably stiffer and provide better feel through the wheel and the seat. The outgoing M4 in this regard was in fact bad enough it got beaten by a Camaro SS in a Motor Trend comparison review, and while vastly improved, you'd agree the American pony car isn't exactly known for interaction.


[quote=Huskyman][quote=C.MW]

Never read such a pile of ste. The engine in an M4 sounds like a pile of ste but the one thing an M4 does not lack is stiffness? The front end turns in so sharply that the only thing you have to worry about is the rear end.

An ISF has a far better engine (albeit not as powerful) but the auto is far lazier and lacking that manual interaction and the chassis is lazier and feels far heavier and slower to respond.

I am no mad fan of an M4 but after having the Competition version for the last 30k miles and an ISF for 90k miles, I can definitely say the former is a far better sporty car.

[wst]

Billy_Whizzzz said:

Unquestionably, the worst written piece ever.

The biscuit analogy was really weird.

I like the sounds of the car itself though. I look forward to a video review by someone else.

[Housey]

C.MW said:

I hope they fixed the weak chassis from the F30. Yes it was light, but it wasn't rigid enough to form the proper basis for the full-cream M variants and as a result the M3/M4 suffered numb steering and general lack of feedback through every touch point. The heavier competitors like the RC-F and AMG C63 were a lot better in that regard. If you can't make it light AND rigid, I suggest you make it rigid first and go from there; a rigid structure is a must for any true sports cars.

Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 12th December 04:43

Come again...

[C.MW]

I understand that to defend your fond memories of a certain car, you can of course go as far as to say someone else's experience is nonsense. Yea, it's indeed PH here. May be you're right and your M3 is stiff as hell and all that, but everything is discussed in relative terms here so drive it back to back with its competitors and you will find out. If you don't bother to do so, do some google research and count how many reviewers criticised the car for not having enough feel. A fact remains a fact.

Wills2 said:

Huskyman said:

C.MW said:

I hope they fixed the weak chassis from the F30. Yes it was light, but it wasn't rigid enough to form the proper basis for the full-cream M variants and as a result the M3/M4 suffered numb steering and general lack of feedback through every touch point. The heavier competitors like the RC-F and AMG C63 were a lot better in that regard. If you can't make it light AND rigid, I suggest you make it rigid first and go from there; a rigid structure is a must for any true sports cars.

Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 12th December 04:43

Could you qualify this statement please? I cannot find any info on the AMG C63?
The figure F30 stands at 29300NM per degree and 40000 for the F80 M3, That’s more rigid than a carbon tubbed car like the Carrera GT.
I test drove an F80 and one thing it didn’t feel like was sloppy or imprecise.

He can't I've just sold My F80 m3 after 90,000 miles in 3 years it was the most rigid and stiff car I've had, the front end was as sharp as knife, he's talking nonsense but this is PH.

Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 12th December 23:18

[C.MW]

The fact that you're a fan of a certain car does NOT mean it's a perfect car. What a pile of ste as you say.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/future-cars/...

The snappy nature of the outgoing M3/4 has more to do with suspension and stability control calibration than the body stiffness itself. You also seem to confuse suspension stiffness with body rigidity and these are two completely different things. Even if what you're arguing is right, it indicates the rear is far too weak in relation to the front end. A car has both ends, front and rear. Both need to be stiff to be a proper sports car, in case you're not aware.

jjr1 said:

C.MW said:

I guess it's something you'd notce if you're used to it and drive it back to back with its competitors. The general numbness is the main reason (along with the synthetic-feeling turbo engine) I sold it only 5 months after I'd purchased. After a brief time with a previous generation C63 AMG, now I drive an IS-F. Both feel noticeably stiffer and provide better feel through the wheel and the seat. The outgoing M4 in this regard was in fact bad enough it got beaten by a Camaro SS in a Motor Trend comparison review, and while vastly improved, you'd agree the American pony car isn't exactly known for interaction.

Huskyman said:

C.MW said:

Never read such a pile of ste. The engine in an M4 sounds like a pile of ste but the one thing an M4 does not lack is stiffness? The front end turns in so sharply that the only thing you have to worry about is the rear end.

An ISF has a far better engine (albeit not as powerful) but the auto is far lazier and lacking that manual interaction and the chassis is lazier and feels far heavier and slower to respond.

I am no mad fan of an M4 but after having the Competition version for the last 30k miles and an ISF for 90k miles, I can definitely say the former is a far better sporty car.

Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 12th December 23:48

Edited by C.MW on Wednesday 12th December 23:56

[jjr1]

The snappy nature of the outgoing M3/4 has more to do with suspension and stability control calibration than the body stiffness itself. If what you're arguing is right, then it indicates the rear is far too weak compared to the front end. A car has both ends, front and rear. Both need to be stiff to be a proper sports car, in case you're not aware.



???????????????????

I genuinely don't know what the fk you are talking about? WTF has the stability control got to do with the stiffness of a car?

My idea of a good fun car is one that turns in on the front and has an exceptional engine. The rest of that corner is hopefully one that you can control with the right rear foot..

[C.MW]

I really don't like your use of F word there but to get things straight:

Read the fkin comment correctly. You said you were worried about the rear end while driving and that is called snappiness. But your M3/4 was snappy not because it was ultra stiff like you said. It actually has more to do with its suspension & stability control calibration. That is precisely why the CS variant has much of the tendency to oversteer ironed out just with its stability control reprogrammed. Got the fkin point here? It's not my word but BMW engineers' so use google before banging on about something you hope to be true when it's not.

jjr1 said:

The snappy nature of the outgoing M3/4 has more to do with suspension and stability control calibration than the body stiffness itself. If what you're arguing is right, then it indicates the rear is far too weak compared to the front end. A car has both ends, front and rear. Both need to be stiff to be a proper sports car, in case you're not aware.



???????????????????

I genuinely don't know what the fk you are talking about? WTF has the stability control got to do with the stiffness of a car?

My idea of a good fun car is one that turns in on the front and has an exceptional engine. The rest of that corner is hopefully one that you can control with the right rear foot..

Edited by C.MW on Thursday 13th December 00:32

Edited by C.MW on Thursday 13th December 00:43