RE: Cosworth's 1000hp 6.5-litre V12: PH Meets
Discussion
poppopbangbang said:
WojaWabbit said:
Can a clever person tell me what all these fittings might be for on the exhaust? I was thinking sensors for use during testing but there seems to be a lot of them!
Thermocouples to monitor cat brick temperatures. There's a full 16 min video on Youtube about it. It's a great watch.
That engine is beautiful and the engineering behind it is incredible.
Oh and it's going to be a manual by the sounds of it.
https://youtu.be/pk8ZrN__nmA
That engine is beautiful and the engineering behind it is incredible.
Oh and it's going to be a manual by the sounds of it.
https://youtu.be/pk8ZrN__nmA
Otispunkmeyer said:
GregorFuk said:
Can anyone put more meat on the bones of this statement?
"but that wasn't really the priority here, and if you want power rather than economy port injection is slightly better, and it also meant we didn't need a GPF."
I’d like to understand why. Why does port injection allow the GPF to go?
PFI means very homogeneous fuel air mixture that burns very cleanly... you get very little in the way of particulates. DI engines suffer more because of the stratified nature of the fuel air mix. Very basically, when the fuel sprays in it fans out from very rich at the nozzle to very lean at the periphery and when the flame starts going the richer parts don't burn as well leaving particulates."but that wasn't really the priority here, and if you want power rather than economy port injection is slightly better, and it also meant we didn't need a GPF."
I’d like to understand why. Why does port injection allow the GPF to go?
A few things i picked up on looking at the pics , those EGTs must be super high to need measurements every ~25mm through the brick. A modern 2l Eu6(d) high performance petrol is about 950*C , with a brick material thermal limit of 1050* or so .
As for particulates , eu6df emissions is still fine for port intention but EU7 is asking for a 80% REDUCTION in NOx (2023) which would definitely pose a legislative problem as you need GPFs and all other sorts of stuff for cold starting... (Headaches
)
Cant wait to not see one on the road , roll on the grand tour review !
As for particulates , eu6df emissions is still fine for port intention but EU7 is asking for a 80% REDUCTION in NOx (2023) which would definitely pose a legislative problem as you need GPFs and all other sorts of stuff for cold starting... (Headaches
)Cant wait to not see one on the road , roll on the grand tour review !
pimpchez said:
A few things i picked up on looking at the pics , those EGTs must be super high to need measurements every ~25mm through the brick. A modern 2l Eu6(d) high performance petrol is about 950*C , with a brick material thermal limit of 1050* or so .
As for particulates , eu6df emissions is still fine for port intention but EU7 is asking for a 80% REDUCTION in NOx (2023) which would definitely pose a legislative problem as you need GPFs and all other sorts of stuff for cold starting... (Headaches )
Cant wait to not see one on the road , roll on the grand tour review !
Look closely the cats, you can see they are (as normal) a twin brick design, and you can see the mid cat lambda sensor boss at the top of the assy. That means 4 thermocouples, CAT 1 IN, CAT 1 OUT, CAT 2 IN, CAT 2 OUT, and they've added a mid cat one too. You can also see the thermocouple 25mm into the first brick, used to monitor the exotherm too.As for particulates , eu6df emissions is still fine for port intention but EU7 is asking for a 80% REDUCTION in NOx (2023) which would definitely pose a legislative problem as you need GPFs and all other sorts of stuff for cold starting... (Headaches
)Cant wait to not see one on the road , roll on the grand tour review !
Mr-B said:
What a masterpiece! Probably one of the last of it's kind. What a swansong though.
I wonder if Merc are just a very tiny bit concerned that they opted to go with F1 technology (and crap sound) for their engine? Round 1 to AM.
I very much doubt they're concerned, aren't they all sold? I wonder if Merc are just a very tiny bit concerned that they opted to go with F1 technology (and crap sound) for their engine? Round 1 to AM.
leerandle said:
Is this the same principle when I heard the Vulcan engine was just 2 v6 bolted together (or something similar)
Poor Aston, when will they EVER escape this rubbish? Nobody ever talks about Bugatti using a couple of old Passat engines with some turbos bolted on, which is much closer to the truth than this Ford V6 rumour. The Aston V12 shares a few basic dimensions with the Ford V6 being as they were Ford owned at the time. No parts are shared with any Ford engine and it is built by Aston employees in an Aston facility (in the corner of a Ford facility, fine). Since the Ford days they’ve squeezed more and more power out of it whilst passing ever tighter emissions, and then strapped on some turbos as well and forced even more out whilst STILL keeping a stinking great V12 road legal and emissions compliant. Also don’t forget the side diversion of the One-77 which was another extreme development of the same basic engine.
If it’s basically a couple of Mondeo engines welded together, then a person is basically half of their mum and half of their dad stitched together.
Venturist said:
leerandle said:
Is this the same principle when I heard the Vulcan engine was just 2 v6 bolted together (or something similar)
Poor Aston, when will they EVER escape this rubbish? Nobody ever talks about Bugatti using a couple of old Passat engines with some turbos bolted on, which is much closer to the truth than this Ford V6 rumour. The Aston V12 shares a few basic dimensions with the Ford V6 being as they were Ford owned at the time. No parts are shared with any Ford engine and it is built by Aston employees in an Aston facility (in the corner of a Ford facility, fine). Since the Ford days they’ve squeezed more and more power out of it whilst passing ever tighter emissions, and then strapped on some turbos as well and forced even more out whilst STILL keeping a stinking great V12 road legal and emissions compliant. Also don’t forget the side diversion of the One-77 which was another extreme development of the same basic engine.
If it’s basically a couple of Mondeo engines welded together, then a person is basically half of their mum and half of their dad stitched together.
Good to see a bit of Marketing bolleux has crept in mind:
media.astonmartin.com said:
The result is an engine that weighs just 206kg. By way of comparison, Cosworth’s 3.0 litre V10 F1TM engines (the last before weight limits were imposed by the FIA) weighed 97Kg. If scaled-up to 6.5 litres this pure race engine would weigh 210kg.
Gotta give the Marketers something to do eh..... ;-)Alias218 said:
I was rather hoping to see more of their dyno cell set up! Seemed to have fairly small amounts of instrumentation installed, although I guess this was just for demonstration purposes.
you can't see the engine when it's hooked up, wires, probes, cables everywhere.there's plenty of Computer power in their control rooms.
we installed the graphics recently, the wires on the wall in the cells are a safety cutout, shuts down the Development centre apparently...
Max_Torque said:
Good to see a bit of Marketing bolleux has crept in mind:
Ahh we tend to call that powertrain powerpoint engineering . Then you have debunk the myths with the actual facts and data...media.astonmartin.com said:
The result is an engine that weighs just 206kg. By way of comparison, Cosworth’s 3.0 litre V10 F1TM engines (the last before weight limits were imposed by the FIA) weighed 97Kg. If scaled-up to 6.5 litres this pure race engine would weigh 210kg.
Gotta give the Marketers something to do eh..... ;-)Mr.Jimbo said:
leerandle said:
What a great bit of engineering design. Well done Cosworth.
I love the 'we used 3 cylinder design first' to validate the numbers (power and emissions).
Is this the same principle when I heard the Vulcan engine was just 2 v6 bolted together (or something similar)
Cant wait to see the actual car and then the real performance/handling figures.
I'm surprised that it's a 3 cyl to be honest, usually for brand new combustion systems you'd do a single cylinder 'optical' engine where you analyse flame spread, combustion speed, resistance to knock etc - multi cylinder mule engines are less common but then I'm used to very pedestrian (by comparison) 8 cylinders and lower to be honest. I love the 'we used 3 cylinder design first' to validate the numbers (power and emissions).
Is this the same principle when I heard the Vulcan engine was just 2 v6 bolted together (or something similar)
Cant wait to see the actual car and then the real performance/handling figures.
Optical engines typically have an acrylic or some sort of glass element to them so you can look at (albeit with a high speed camera) the combustion in real time.
In the Carfection video, I think the Head engineer says they took a 4 cylinder block? but just used 3 cylinders. Given its Cosworth I suspect they might have used that 4 cylinder engine they developed a while back for that Jag CX-75, the one that had like 500hp and a 10,000rpm red line?
So I'd imagine for this engine, there isn't really a new combustion system. Its PFI, and they'd have known pretty well what shape to make the head and piston for good numbers based on previous work. Plus there's plenty of 1D and multidimensional models of PFI combustion (they've been modelling that form of combustion for over 30 years) to go back to if you wanted to change something and see the effect (perhaps not for emissions mind, no one has a decent combustion model for emissions).
You'd absolutely need to be using a 1 cylinder research engine for what the likes of Mazda are doing with SPCCI (SPark Controlled Compression Ignition) because that is a genuinely new shift in combustion system and is difficult to get right.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 12th December 20:57
old'uns said:
Alias218 said:
I was rather hoping to see more of their dyno cell set up! Seemed to have fairly small amounts of instrumentation installed, although I guess this was just for demonstration purposes.
you can't see the engine when it's hooked up, wires, probes, cables everywhere.there's plenty of Computer power in their control rooms.
we installed the graphics recently, the wires on the wall in the cells are a safety cutout, shuts down the Development centre apparently...
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