Has my insurer stolen my car???

Has my insurer stolen my car???

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GrazedNConfudsed

Original Poster:

29 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
GP = GUILTY PARTY
IP = INNOCENT PARTY
CE = CHIEF ENGINEER

My car was hit while parked and unattended.
GP car struck a car which hit mine.
GP admitted fault at the roadside, to myself and the other IP.
My insurers took away my car to local approved repairers.
I connected the boss of the approved repairers and got a “normal” quote 50% of the quote sent to the insurers.
Car was declared right off. Undervalued cheque was issued to me.
I objected, saying I wanted to either dispute valuation or cancel the claim get the repairs done myself and deal with GP insurance direct.
I was to be called back, but weeks went by with no contact, despite many chasings.
Wednesday I finally got someone who said she'd get a manager to call me as she could see there was a cock up.
Yesterday I was called by the chief engineer and told my car could not be returned as it had already been sold on as salvage.
I have not cashed the cheque nor sent them the V5, nor at any point indicated I was going to accept their valuation or cash the cheque. On the contrary, if they have recorded the calls, or the callcentre staff have made notes about my many calls, every communication from me has been about getting the car back one way or another ASAP.
I'm awaiting a return call from the CE.

Anyone able to offer any advice? Have they stolen my car? What could be my maximum compensation if my car cannot be returned to me?

Any advice would be much appreciated.


Edited by GrazedNConfudsed on Friday 14th December 11:39


Edited by GrazedNConfudsed on Friday 14th December 11:42

neutral 3

6,356 posts

169 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Nightmare, you need to see a Good Solicitor for advice. Most firms will give a free 30 min apt. Write it all down on a sheet of A4 paper, so you are fully prepared, as time is money and you will forget things without notes in front of you.
Essex incompetant Plod and their Cowboy recovery agent, sent my perfect, low miles R1 for smelting, i tried suing and got no where.
Little wonder that i have Zero respect for Essex plod now / Ever again !

ralphrj

3,508 posts

190 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
GrazedNConfudsed said:
GP = GUILTY PARTY
IP = INNOCENT PARTY
CE = CHIEF ENGINEER

My was hit while parked and unattended.
GP car struck a car which hit mine.
GP admitted fault at the roadside, to myself and the other IP.
My insurers took away my car to local approved repairers.
I connected the boss of the approved repairers and got a “normal” quote 50% of the quote sent to the insurers.
Car was declared right off. Undervalued cheque was issued to me.
I objected, saying I wanted to either dispute valuation or cancel the claim get the repairs done myself and deal with GP insurance direct.
I was to be called back, but weeks went by with no contact, despite many chasings.
Wednesday I finally got someone who said she'd get a manager to call me as she could see there was a cock up.
Yesterday I was called by the chief engineer and told my car could not be returned as it had already been sold on as salvage.
I have not cashed the cheque nor sent them the V5, nor at any point indicated I was going to accept their valuation or cash the cheque. On the contrary, if they have recorded the calls, or the callcentre staff have made notes about my many calls, every communication from me has been about getting the car back one way or another ASAP.
I'm awaiting a return call from the CE.

Anyone able to offer any advice? Have they stolen my car? What could be my maximum compensation if my car cannot be returned to me?

Any advice would be much appreciated.


Edited by GrazedNConfudsed on Friday 14th December 11:39
I doubt that you would get very far if you reported it to the Police as theft.

The maximum compensation you would be entitled to is the market value of your car before it was damaged.

dibblecorse

6,872 posts

191 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Have they stolen your car, no.

Have they screwed up, yes by their own admission

Seems as if potentially their systems may have closed the case 'settled' at the point the payment was issued and your car disposed of as per their process.

Compensation ? No, you are entitled to payment for your car as per the terms of your insurance, so maybe a slightly bigger cheque.

Also why would the garage offer you a quote less than 50% of the one issued to the insurers, surely that leaves them liable to all sorts of applications or did you ask for a lot less remedial work ?

Michaelbailey

651 posts

105 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Very strong argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.
I'm not a 100% sure on all of this but this is how I would interpret the situation.
Insurance sold car on without consent,
insurance offer sub market value for car (subjective)

But ultimately you wanted the car back, this is where im not sure what rights the insurance company have over the vehicle in question and what they are legally obliged to offer.


More specific info on the car in question could be relevant in this case I think. i.e. Car model, year, mileage, condition price offered etc.

though this could all be irrelevant should the insurance co not have the right to sell car on.

FWIW

3,042 posts

96 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
GrazedNConfudsed said:
Have they stolen my car?
Theft: A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it.

GrazedNConfudsed

Original Poster:

29 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
My quote was the price a normal person would pay, the insurers quote is inflated with original parts and unnecessary repairs, eg a new wheel, where the wheel was not actually affected be the prang.

So at what point do the insurers take legal title to the car? Without which, how can they legally sell that title to someone else?

sim16v

2,176 posts

200 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Typical Insurance outcome, they screw a lot of people one way or another.

Keep an eye out on Copart to see if it pops up, then chase it up that way.

FWIW

3,042 posts

96 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
GrazedNConfudsed said:
My quote was the price a normal person would pay, the insurers quote is inflated with original parts and unnecessary repairs, eg a new wheel, where the wheel was not actually affected be the prang.

So at what point do the insurers take legal title to the car? Without which, how can they legally sell that title to someone else?
I would go to the financial ombudsman: https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publication...

jon-

16,496 posts

215 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
GrazedNConfudsed said:
My quote was the price a normal person would pay, the insurers quote is inflated with original parts and unnecessary repairs, eg a new wheel, where the wheel was not actually affected be the prang.

So at what point do the insurers take legal title to the car? Without which, how can they legally sell that title to someone else?
My last M3 had a front end knock. Took the bumper off, damaged the radiator, needed a new wing and bonnet. It was a £20k car.

The insurance nominated garage quoted £14k to repair, so it was written off. They'd included things like a whole new wiring loom for the engine.

I refused the write off, took it to a BMW bodyshop who laughed and repaired it for nearly half the amount, while throwing a few needless bits on.

My guess is the first garage overestimated the cars worth and were trying to get it just under 75% value. There's no way they'd have actually done the £3,000 wiring loom etc.

GrazedNConfudsed

Original Poster:

29 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
sim16v said:
Typical Insurance outcome, they screw a lot of people one way or another.

Keep an eye out on Copart to see if it pops up, then chase it up that way.
Lol, that's who sold the car, 2 weeks ago. Insurers are currently pointing the finger at them as the negligent party.

the tribester

2,340 posts

85 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
neutral 3 said:
Essex incompetant Plod and their Cowboy recovery agent, sent my perfect, low miles R1 for smelting, i tried suing and got no where.
Little wonder that i have Zero respect for Essex plod now / Ever again !
So one Essex police officer has your motorcycle recovered from the scene of a collision by an approved agent, and then likely has no further contact with the recovery firm, or you even. The collision paperwork is likely dealt with by a civilian member of staff, and for this reason you now have zero respect for all 2,900 Essex Police officers. Yep, seems fair.

I'm sure after Harold Shipman, you no longer visit your own GP either?

OP, I am sure chosing the agreed value insurance will prove a wise move, but it'll all be down to the competence of the claims handler, so make sure you email him/her regularly explaining what you want to happen, don't let them just opt for the easiest/cheapest option if this is not how you want it sorted.

tinnitusjosh

324 posts

71 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Michaelbailey said:
Very strong argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.
absolutely zero argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.

You would have to prove they had acted dishonestly - and to the extent that the dishonesty was criminal which is incredibly difficult. How would you show that they had a dishonest state of mind? That they knew that they had no right to scrap the car but did so anyway? They may have acted negligently, and may have committed a tort of conversion, but you would get nowhere alleging theft

FWIW

3,042 posts

96 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
the tribester said:
neutral 3 said:
Essex incompetant Plod and their Cowboy recovery agent, sent my perfect, low miles R1 for smelting, i tried suing and got no where.
Little wonder that i have Zero respect for Essex plod now / Ever again !
So one Essex police officer has your motorcycle recovered from the scene of a collision by an approved agent, and then likely has no further contact with the recovery firm, or you even. The collision paperwork is likely dealt with by a civilian member of staff, and for this reason you now have zero respect for all 2,900 Essex Police officers. Yep, seems fair.

I'm sure after Harold Shipman, you no longer visit your own GP either?
Unfortunately, that's just the mentality of the proletariat.

GrazedNConfudsed

Original Poster:

29 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
tinnitusjosh said:
Michaelbailey said:
Very strong argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.
absolutely zero argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.

You would have to prove they had acted dishonestly - and to the extent that the dishonesty was criminal which is incredibly difficult. How would you show that they had a dishonest state of mind? That they knew that they had no right to scrap the car but did so anyway? They may have acted negligently, and may have committed a tort of conversion, but you would get nowhere alleging theft
Any advice on how best to proceed?

Michaelbailey

651 posts

105 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
tinnitusjosh said:
absolutely zero argument here for them having stolen your vehicle.

You would have to prove they had acted dishonestly - and to the extent that the dishonesty was criminal which is incredibly difficult. How would you show that they had a dishonest state of mind? That they knew that they had no right to scrap the car but did so anyway? They may have acted negligently, and may have committed a tort of conversion, but you would get nowhere alleging theft
Perhaps "theft" is the wrong legal term but ultimately they have sold a car on without consent from the owner. In laymans terms theft doesn't seem too far off the mark?

GrazedNConfudsed

Original Poster:

29 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
the tribester said:
OP, I am sure chosing the agreed value insurance will prove a wise move, but it'll all be down to the competence of the claims handler, so make sure you email him/her regularly explaining what you want to happen, don't let them just opt for the easiest/cheapest option if this is not how you want it sorted.
Not sure I follow what you mean ; what is the "agreed value insurance"?

berlintaxi

8,535 posts

172 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
GrazedNConfudsed said:
the tribester said:
OP, I am sure chosing the agreed value insurance will prove a wise move, but it'll all be down to the competence of the claims handler, so make sure you email him/her regularly explaining what you want to happen, don't let them just opt for the easiest/cheapest option if this is not how you want it sorted.
Not sure I follow what you mean ; what is the "agreed value insurance"?
When the value of the car being insured is agreed with the insurance company on taking out the policy, generally used for classic cars, guessing you had market value insurance which means arguing with the insurance company over their valuation versus yours.

Sheepshanks

32,526 posts

118 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
Michaelbailey said:
Perhaps "theft" is the wrong legal term but ultimately they have sold a car on without consent from the owner. In laymans terms theft doesn't seem too far off the mark?
I *think* when you kick a claim off you give them the right to deal with it as they think fit.

Anyway, before suing them or whatever you'd presumably need to go through their complaints process and then the Ombudsman - I don't think Courts like it if yuo miss out available steps in the process.

The recent write-off of one of my daughters car was a bit of an eye-opener for me - once the car is out of your hands it proved impossible to regain control of the process. A PHer wanted it but the repairer told it it had already gone to Copart. When we found that wasn't true the insurer evaded giving us the price to keep it. This was a well regarded insurance company too - I'd hate to think what a bad one is like.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Friday 14th December 13:42

GrazedNConfudsed

Original Poster:

29 posts

63 months

Friday 14th December 2018
quotequote all
OK, what if I simply notifiy that I hereby cancel the claim.

Now it is a simple case of give me back my car. No valuation / wright off / negligence issues to complicate things?

Simply they had my car and can't return it.

What now?