RE: M5 (E39) vs. M5 (E60) vs. M5 (F90)
Discussion
Enjoyed that article. I always lusted after a E34 six speeder but Chris Harris talking of his being more expensive to run than Concorde put me off! I ended up with an E39 with back box delete; it’s a lovely thing and sounds great. Weighed mine and it came in at 1725kg so the above stats look a little off....
Nice article, and I can particularly agree with the conclusion, or more specifically, the reasoning behind it.
So let me ask the collective pistonheads this:
Was Japans gentleman agreement on to something? (the 280bhp rule)
Not saying the Germans necessarily should have stuck with exactly that number, but, hypothetically, what do you think would have happened to the evolution of the performance saloon if say there was something like a 400 bhp "gentlemans agreement" in Germany?
I can imagine "exotic" materials to keep weight down; benefits speed, braking, handling, chassis stiffness/safety, fuel/wear economy (but adversely affects the price). Would we have seen cars that hadn't gone too bloated to be driven anywhere but in the US, bhp numbers that are rendered useless outside pub bragging rights? Interested in others thoughts and inputs.
Regards
So let me ask the collective pistonheads this:
Was Japans gentleman agreement on to something? (the 280bhp rule)
Not saying the Germans necessarily should have stuck with exactly that number, but, hypothetically, what do you think would have happened to the evolution of the performance saloon if say there was something like a 400 bhp "gentlemans agreement" in Germany?
I can imagine "exotic" materials to keep weight down; benefits speed, braking, handling, chassis stiffness/safety, fuel/wear economy (but adversely affects the price). Would we have seen cars that hadn't gone too bloated to be driven anywhere but in the US, bhp numbers that are rendered useless outside pub bragging rights? Interested in others thoughts and inputs.
Regards
MrwReckless said:
Nice article, and I can particularly agree with the conclusion, or more specifically, the reasoning behind it.
So let me ask the collective pistonheads this:
Was Japans gentleman agreement on to something? (the 280bhp rule)
Not saying the Germans necessarily should have stuck with exactly that number, but, hypothetically, what do you think would have happened to the evolution of the performance saloon if say there was something like a 400 bhp "gentlemans agreement" in Germany?
I can imagine "exotic" materials to keep weight down; benefits speed, braking, handling, chassis stiffness/safety, fuel/wear economy (but adversely affects the price). Would we have seen cars that hadn't gone too bloated to be driven anywhere but in the US, bhp numbers that are rendered useless outside pub bragging rights? Interested in others thoughts and inputs.
Regards
Yep. The power is getting pretty stupid now. Next M5 towards 700bhp and over 2 tonnes? Would think some imposed limit of say 550bhp for a saloon would be sensible. How that could be enforced I don't know.So let me ask the collective pistonheads this:
Was Japans gentleman agreement on to something? (the 280bhp rule)
Not saying the Germans necessarily should have stuck with exactly that number, but, hypothetically, what do you think would have happened to the evolution of the performance saloon if say there was something like a 400 bhp "gentlemans agreement" in Germany?
I can imagine "exotic" materials to keep weight down; benefits speed, braking, handling, chassis stiffness/safety, fuel/wear economy (but adversely affects the price). Would we have seen cars that hadn't gone too bloated to be driven anywhere but in the US, bhp numbers that are rendered useless outside pub bragging rights? Interested in others thoughts and inputs.
Regards
Afternoon all,
Enjoyed that article. I still maintain that the E39 M5 is the best car I've ever driven (much nicer than the 911s or anything else that I've experienced). I guess I'm still one of those dinosaurs that prefers to do it all myself and not rely too heavily on car electronics, but I fully appreciate that being an entirely different topic!
I'm still slightly annoyed with myself that I didn't take the opportunity to buy an E39 before they started sky rocketing in value.
One of BMW's very best in my view
Enjoyed that article. I still maintain that the E39 M5 is the best car I've ever driven (much nicer than the 911s or anything else that I've experienced). I guess I'm still one of those dinosaurs that prefers to do it all myself and not rely too heavily on car electronics, but I fully appreciate that being an entirely different topic!
I'm still slightly annoyed with myself that I didn't take the opportunity to buy an E39 before they started sky rocketing in value.
One of BMW's very best in my view
Good read enjoyed that.
Love the e39. The looks, interior materials used and design are of that period of quality first, rather than tech or fashion.
E39 M5 one of the all time greats.
Drove the new F90 M5 and F10 a few years back. The performance of both is outstanding. But I never felt in control. body control under turn in and braking is numb and slightly disconcerting while feeling computers and fat tyre's are hard at work compensating.
In a sad way a agree with the comment above about whats the point though.
Would I buy a E39 or E60 M5 for a weekend toy. No I would rather have something exciting like a TVR, Lotus etc.
E39 or E60 M5 for a practical run around, again no, running cost too high (E60) or would be afraid of adding wear and tear.
Id buy a F90 as a everyday car with fuel cost not an issue!
Awesome all rounders, but I cant see ever having the need or want.
Love the e39. The looks, interior materials used and design are of that period of quality first, rather than tech or fashion.
E39 M5 one of the all time greats.
Drove the new F90 M5 and F10 a few years back. The performance of both is outstanding. But I never felt in control. body control under turn in and braking is numb and slightly disconcerting while feeling computers and fat tyre's are hard at work compensating.
In a sad way a agree with the comment above about whats the point though.
Would I buy a E39 or E60 M5 for a weekend toy. No I would rather have something exciting like a TVR, Lotus etc.
E39 or E60 M5 for a practical run around, again no, running cost too high (E60) or would be afraid of adding wear and tear.
Id buy a F90 as a everyday car with fuel cost not an issue!
Awesome all rounders, but I cant see ever having the need or want.
E60 V10 just 3 less than E63 from another brand with 1.2 more litres and equally good sound. Deep warble v screamer.
Good times. Note that I am looking at these at a safer distance than me, my wallet and I would look at a rocket launch in the 1950s. A French rocket with jacket de jaune over the second stage. Anyone who wishes to pay for one of these to keep them rolling needs a youtube channel with all advertising revenue set to subscribe and click the thumbs up and getting you girlfriend to flop out her tits accidentally when the engine is revved, due to sub harmonics.
I would still take a 4 door V8 M3 over any of these heavyweights due to better on B roads, it was so good your legs got wobbly trying to walk even towards it and then got your thumb in the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIHWsxI5-jk
Cracking car, but then
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMavUW0kY-U
FAP FAP FAP
If I was only allowed 3 of the 4 door BMWS of all time it would be, in no order ==>
1. BMW M3 CRT
2. Alpina B5
3 Hartge H50 V10.
If you are going to go mad with that engine then stick it in a 3 series body like Hartge did
"The car you see here was once an unassuming 330i. Now, one major transplant and extreme makeover later, its heart beats with four extra cylinders. Crammed into the engine bay is the extraordinary 5-litre V10 unit that usually powers the M5 and M6. Now this may sound crazy, but fitting a standard engine with 'just' 500bhp was never going to be enough for Hartge, so they reworked the cylinder heads, modified the butterflies, fitted new camshafts and remapped the ECU. Hitting the 'Power' button now unleashes grunt of colossal proportions, 550bhp and 384lb ft of torque, armed and ready to fire this 1670kg machine headlong at the horizon."
Of course in the article they only got 400, due to electrical issues, but 11 years later, they will have been ironed out no doubt :
Still love Hartge. They did a version of the E30 M3 which was up to 280 bhp with an extra 2 cylinders.......
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
Wibble ... managed to see one of these in real life on a forecourt between Rochdale and Heywood back in the day. Just epic.
I've just managed to rose tint myself into nirvana whist my wife watches some dancing program.
From memory the seats were a bit like those pink coral ones Porsche did but I cannot find an internet picture.
280bhp 6 cylinder BMW M3 E30
Good times. Note that I am looking at these at a safer distance than me, my wallet and I would look at a rocket launch in the 1950s. A French rocket with jacket de jaune over the second stage. Anyone who wishes to pay for one of these to keep them rolling needs a youtube channel with all advertising revenue set to subscribe and click the thumbs up and getting you girlfriend to flop out her tits accidentally when the engine is revved, due to sub harmonics.
I would still take a 4 door V8 M3 over any of these heavyweights due to better on B roads, it was so good your legs got wobbly trying to walk even towards it and then got your thumb in the way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIHWsxI5-jk
Cracking car, but then
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMavUW0kY-U
FAP FAP FAP
If I was only allowed 3 of the 4 door BMWS of all time it would be, in no order ==>
1. BMW M3 CRT
2. Alpina B5
3 Hartge H50 V10.
If you are going to go mad with that engine then stick it in a 3 series body like Hartge did
"The car you see here was once an unassuming 330i. Now, one major transplant and extreme makeover later, its heart beats with four extra cylinders. Crammed into the engine bay is the extraordinary 5-litre V10 unit that usually powers the M5 and M6. Now this may sound crazy, but fitting a standard engine with 'just' 500bhp was never going to be enough for Hartge, so they reworked the cylinder heads, modified the butterflies, fitted new camshafts and remapped the ECU. Hitting the 'Power' button now unleashes grunt of colossal proportions, 550bhp and 384lb ft of torque, armed and ready to fire this 1670kg machine headlong at the horizon."
Of course in the article they only got 400, due to electrical issues, but 11 years later, they will have been ironed out no doubt :
Still love Hartge. They did a version of the E30 M3 which was up to 280 bhp with an extra 2 cylinders.......
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
Wibble ... managed to see one of these in real life on a forecourt between Rochdale and Heywood back in the day. Just epic.
I've just managed to rose tint myself into nirvana whist my wife watches some dancing program.
From memory the seats were a bit like those pink coral ones Porsche did but I cannot find an internet picture.
280bhp 6 cylinder BMW M3 E30
Would love an E39, but there are issues with running one as a high mileage daily, and I also do wonder what the lack of the last 20 years of crash safety development would do if a nutter crashed full on into our little family.
So, I now have my hopes of the upcoming M340i xdrive, first reviews are very promising the handling is back in the picture. To me it sounds like a smaller, more accessible version of the F90 M5, and incidentally very similar in absolute numbers to the E39 M5 (which didn't have exactly all 400 ponies under the hood all the time...). No manual alas, but it will come as an estate like the E34 and E61 did...
So, I now have my hopes of the upcoming M340i xdrive, first reviews are very promising the handling is back in the picture. To me it sounds like a smaller, more accessible version of the F90 M5, and incidentally very similar in absolute numbers to the E39 M5 (which didn't have exactly all 400 ponies under the hood all the time...). No manual alas, but it will come as an estate like the E34 and E61 did...
Edited by Onehp on Saturday 15th December 19:16
Depreciation has resulted in some very tempted nearly new, extended warranty M5’s on the market. As something for thrashing, putting on miles and not having to baby it I think they offer tremendous bang for buck. I’m reaching a point in my life where worrying about ‘what’s going to go wrong next’ is wearing thin. The E39 represents that sort of car, it’s reached a point where things will need to be replaced and that list of parts is endless.
Mr Whippy said:
So which is the most fun to go for a hoon on your average UK road?
No one is buying any of these older ones as a daily now, so occasional use and occasion is king?
It sounds like the E60 might be after all?
Occasionally use for me means manual is a must.No one is buying any of these older ones as a daily now, so occasional use and occasion is king?
It sounds like the E60 might be after all?
But then the problem is they are so good at so many things it feels a waste not to you them frequently.
d on a track (wrt competition).wolfracesonic said:
E61 M5 owner here: Got to agree with some of the other posters above re. the SMG, sure it can be a clonky especially 1st to 2nd at low speed in traffic when winding it round to 7000rpm might not be a good idea but I do think it suits the mental nature of the car. I don't think I like the idea of a manual TBH, though if, hypothetically, I got to drive one with a DCT I could see myself being converted. As for running a V 10 M5, think of them as a stunning east European blonde, sat alone at a bar in a swanky London hotel; you know you shouldn't, you know it will end in tears and a big bill but what a ride
Was Pytor a gentle lover?lord trumpton said:
I've got this 46k mile Avus blue e39 M5 tucked away on charge and under cover.
That is lovely lovely lovely, looks absolutely mint, mine's at twice that also on a charger in the garage over the winter. Love it but they cost to maintain, so much so that I have to run a silly thing like a VW up as a daily to compensate...Edited by lord trumpton on Saturday 15th December 21:20
Never driven an E60 but had a ride in one and fully lit it was an experience, felt and sounded properly ballistic, but if one thinks an E39 is expensive and finnicky, then stay away from the V10.
I could be content with an F90 but I can't afford one, but a nice F10 regular or competion is a viable option and I honestly think the F10 is a quite good looking if somewhat porky thing.
Mine:
PowerslideSWE said:
lord trumpton said:
I've got this 46k mile Avus blue e39 M5 tucked away on charge and under cover.
That is lovely lovely lovely, looks absolutely mint, mine's at twice that also on a charger in the garage over the winter. Love it but they cost to maintain, so much so that I have to run a silly thing like a VW up as a daily to compensate...Edited by lord trumpton on Saturday 15th December 21:20
Never driven an E60 but had a ride in one and fully lit it was an experience, felt and sounded properly ballistic, but if one thinks an E39 is expensive and finnicky, then stay away from the V10.
I could be content with an F90 but I can't afford one, but a nice F10 regular or competion is a viable option and I honestly think the F10 is a quite good looking if somewhat porky thing.
Mine:
I briefly owned an F10 last year and if I'm honest I didn't get along with it. I sld it after a couple of months and it was a royal PITA to move on.
I struggled to like the E60 that I test drove too. Awesome engine for sure but with a list of potential wallet hoovering failure modes, woeful MPG and the lethargic SMG I passed up on the chance to buy it. I can see the appeal for this that love the E60 mind . just not for me
Mrs Bigmowley ran an E39M5 for 4 years and 60K miles. It was a lovely lovely thing. Ferried the kids around in style and comfort, did some great European trips and the odd track day. They are the perfect balance of size, performance, poise, general useability. I also had a couple of E60's and an E61 over the next few years. I loved the V10 and dare I say it the gearbox, it's just sublime in the fastest change mode when the nose of the diff bangs the underneath of the car on every gearshift, animal. But the missus hated the E60's no torque awful gearbox (her words), 11mpg, crap interior etc etc. The F90 is just to big for us, driven one and it's bloody fast but without the approachability of the E39.
So here is another vote for the E39 M5, the best overall car we have ever owned.
So here is another vote for the E39 M5, the best overall car we have ever owned.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff