RE: M5 (E39) vs. M5 (E60) vs. M5 (F90)

[TheAngryDog]

janesmith1950 said:

Welshbeef said:

And that is where the price is so different buy a F10 from BMW dealers and it’s not a £25k car period.

Apart from this one (and others)...

https://usedcars.bmw.co.uk/vehicle/201812042990679...

Someone ticked the "no options, please" box when they ordered that

Joscal said:

I had my F10 for 3 years and it didn’t skip a beat, I still wouldn’t get one without a BMW warranty though just in case! Im not aware of any common problems although there is a thread on here with a blown engine which is ruinous. Epic cars just buy one from BMW and it will be trouble free.

Some have experienced rod bearing failures as well as other issues. The pops n bangs isn't good for the alusil coating on the bores either.

[DoubleD]

Patrick Bateman said:

DoubleD said:

Reviews are all very well, but I always prefer to try a car myself before I write it off.

Who said I was writing anything off?

It's not unfair to say that what appears to be a relatively small increase in width can have a large bearing on how a car actually feels on the road.

You said that the new car definitely wont feel like it wraps around you. Is that not writing something off before you have tried it for yourself?

[TheAngryDog]

I've had 2 E39's and an E60. The E39's never broke catastrophically but the E60 has, but I that wasn't the cars fault and I am now going legal on that.

The E39 is an epic car, but it is flawed. Rust is a huge issue with them as well as a tendency to warp the front discs (both of mine did this and I had fitted new arms and bushes to make sure it wasn't that). It has a manual box but it's a bit agricultural, especially when cold. 1st to 2nd is notchy. Ok once warm.

The engine just gives and gives, all the way to 7k and was very easy to hustle on single carriage way a roads and even some b roads. Sounded great with a proper exhaust on it and was very communicative. It would send you a letter a week before it was about to step the back end out telling you it was going to do it. I enjoyed both of mine even if they had issues. I'd have another.

My E60. Well it's engine failure is well documented on here. I can't say much more as I am going legal.

I like the SMG. Took a little getting used to at first, but it doesn't cause me any issues.
The engine is immense (when it works). The sound of the V10 is everything. The lack of torque doesn't bother me, it has a gearbox so just change down a gear or two if I need to. No major issue. Revving all the way to 8500rpm is awesome and when on it, it really delivers.

It doesn't handle quite as well as the E39 and is harder to hustle on b roads, but a roads and motorways it is awesome on. I like it and was not disappointed with my choice.

Would I own another. Not sure. That isn't the cars fault, more the guy who has left me with a scrap engine.

Not driven or been in an F10 but I want to. It is a car I want to buy at some point but I know I would miss the V10 sound. I don't care what anyone says, the f10 sounds st.

[donkmeister]

DoubleD said:

donkmeister said:

the AMG E-class has always been a step ahead of the M-division 5-series.

In what way?

Faster... Which is the raison d'etre of this sort of car. Let's not fool ourselves that any E-class or 5-series is an agile track tool, these supersaloons are about massive straightline performance, any braking and cornering ability is a byproduct of needing to keep them from being parked in fields adjoining twisty country lanes.

Yes, I'm being a bit cheeky by picking the "Performance Pack" type ones as the vanilla AMG E's are only faster than the vanilla M5s up to the 6.2l V8 vs the 5.0 V10 era... The current vanilla M5 has 20PS more than the current vanilla E63, but then the E63S has the same power and a full 100Nm more torque than the M5 Competition.

Also I appreciate that my original post offered a subjective opinion as an objective fact, that line in the article obviously irked me.

[greenarrow]

PowerslideSWE said:

DoubleD said:

Its still a fat old thing though. Its amazing that the new car is just a passenger heavier.

True, even the old one is still quite a large car so it was never gonna be a light weight, the doors on the e39 feels properly bank vaulty tho whereas the doors on an F10 feels like they are made from papier mache.

The new car tips the scales at 2 tons tho, my e39 weighs 1720 kilos, poverty spec'd that it is so thats one rather chunky passenger

Yup, M5 weighed by Autocar was 1940KG, so that's one big fat extra passenger over an E39,

Also its 13 CM wider, mirror to mirror that the E39... 212 CM wide, that's flippin wide !!! Its not like the E39 was a small car....

[Welshbeef]

Reality is today only the F10 could be considered a daily driver the E60 at its newest is a 9 year old car the E39 18 years ish. So the older era M5’s are for maybe a ring % of daily drivers the rest are 2nd cars/dream cars whereas the F10 can be run day in day out and appearently if drive it as you would on a flowing A/b /M way not congested driving 30mpg is possible whereas the older versions you’d be looking at maybe high teens if lucky.

[TheAngryDog]

Welshbeef said:

Reality is today only the F10 could be considered a daily driver the E60 at its newest is a 9 year old car the E39 18 years ish. So the older era M5’s are for maybe a ring % of daily drivers the rest are 2nd cars/dream cars whereas the F10 can be run day in day out and appearently if drive it as you would on a flowing A/b /M way not congested driving 30mpg is possible whereas the older versions you’d be looking at maybe high teens if lucky.

I've had low 20's from my E60 and mid 20's from my E39. If only you knew what you were talking about.

[DoubleD]

TheAngryDog said:

Welshbeef said:

Reality is today only the F10 could be considered a daily driver the E60 at its newest is a 9 year old car the E39 18 years ish. So the older era M5’s are for maybe a ring % of daily drivers the rest are 2nd cars/dream cars whereas the F10 can be run day in day out and appearently if drive it as you would on a flowing A/b /M way not congested driving 30mpg is possible whereas the older versions you’d be looking at maybe high teens if lucky.

I've had low 20's from my E60 and mid 20's from my E39. If only you knew what you were talking about.

Is that when they are both driven in the same way?

[Welshbeef]

TheAngryDog said:

I've had low 20's from my E60 and mid 20's from my E39. If only you knew what you were talking about.

Sorry when you say you’ve had low 20’s do you mean frequently in a commuting /daily drive situation or when st I’ve 60 miles to the next fuel station and 55 in the range so granny it?

Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough but I was talking about using the car as a daily and the fact that when using it as a commuting vehicle mpg will be vastly higher. Remember too BMW combined for the E60 M5 is 17-19mpg whereas the F10 is 28.8.... and E39 is 18-20mpg.

[Sport220]

E60 and E34 are my favourites. Nothing beats S85B50 though

[seiben]

Welshbeef said:

TheAngryDog said:

I've had low 20's from my E60 and mid 20's from my E39. If only you knew what you were talking about.

Sorry when you say you’ve had low 20’s do you mean frequently in a commuting /daily drive situation or when st I’ve 60 miles to the next fuel station and 55 in the range so granny it?

Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough but I was talking about using the car as a daily and the fact that when using it as a commuting vehicle mpg will be vastly higher. Remember too BMW combined for the E60 M5 is 17-19mpg whereas the F10 is 28.8.... and E39 is 18-20mpg.

As I've already said, I daily an E39 M5. 15k a year, averaged 23-24mog over that time.

[BigChiefmuffinAgain]

I did about 80K miles in my M5 E39, before replacing it with a B10 3.3 for another 70K miles and then replacing that with a B10V8S which I took up to 210k miles.

I think the E39 is greatly over-rated...... They do rust though, so would be cautious about putting my savings into one 18 yrs on....

But seriously, I think that the M-type cars of today ( RS6, E63 et al ) are now too fast and compromised. The reason everyone loves the E39 is that you could use the speed and power. I think the "sweet spot" for these sort of cars is now the rung below, the 540i, S6 or E43 ( or whatever it is now - seems to change every other day ). I tried a new 530i the other day and it was lovely - never for a moment did I feel that it was underpowered. They also are a lot cheaper to run, as spares are priced at usual 5 series prices as opposed to M-tax prices. Being not so highly strung, I think they would also be more reliable...

The super saloons these days are tying too hard...

[TheAngryDog]

Welshbeef said:

TheAngryDog said:

I've had low 20's from my E60 and mid 20's from my E39. If only you knew what you were talking about.

Sorry when you say you’ve had low 20’s do you mean frequently in a commuting /daily drive situation or when st I’ve 60 miles to the next fuel station and 55 in the range so granny it?

Maybe I didn’t make it clear enough but I was talking about using the car as a daily and the fact that when using it as a commuting vehicle mpg will be vastly higher. Remember too BMW combined for the E60 M5 is 17-19mpg whereas the F10 is 28.8.... and E39 is 18-20mpg.

I don't use the E60 every day, but when traveling long distance I tend to stick to limits especially on the M25 etc. Each time has been low 20's. I have seen 25mpg on the OBC before.

My E39 I did 12k in 3 months. I was visiting client sites so stuck to speed limits etc. It would achieve mid 20's all the time.

[TheAngryDog]

DoubleD said:

TheAngryDog said:

Welshbeef said:

Reality is today only the F10 could be considered a daily driver the E60 at its newest is a 9 year old car the E39 18 years ish. So the older era M5’s are for maybe a ring % of daily drivers the rest are 2nd cars/dream cars whereas the F10 can be run day in day out and appearently if drive it as you would on a flowing A/b /M way not congested driving 30mpg is possible whereas the older versions you’d be looking at maybe high teens if lucky.

I've had low 20's from my E60 and mid 20's from my E39. If only you knew what you were talking about.

Is that when they are both driven in the same way?

Yes. 190 mile drive from Aylesbury to Hull. Driven very much the same due to speed cameras on the M1. I generally stick to the speed limit when making that journey.

[m5wagon]

Have owned 4 M5’s: 2 E34s (1 saloon, 1 touring, both 3.8), 1 E39, 1 E61 (Touring). The E34’s were special but it wasn’t as quick as the chassis could handle and those EDC shocks were getting scarce. I wanted to like the E39 the most, and it was very accomplished, but the manual gearbox isn’t the best (typical rubbery BMW feel - an MX5 has better shift feel), and the steering precision and handling was better on the E61. Then there was that V10 engine - I don’t know what this nonsense is about lack of torque - the acceleration was rabid and the sound epic. I almost didn’t mind the thirst. Even the SMG was strangely satisfying to use in full attack mode. If I was buying another it would be the E61 (as long as I had savings for spares!). However if once you don’t need to cart a family around and want the ultimate driver involvement, I’d recommend something like a Lotus Elise : )

Edited by m5wagon on Sunday 16th December 23:58

[anonymous-user]

I bet a US M6 V10 is a nice drive (they had manual gearboxes)

[anonymous-user]

TheAngryDog said:

I don't use the E60 every day, but when traveling long distance I tend to stick to limits especially on the M25 etc. Each time has been low 20's. I have seen 25mpg on the OBC before.

My E39 I did 12k in 3 months. I was visiting client sites so stuck to speed limits etc. It would achieve mid 20's all the time.

Goes to show how engine technology has moved on- I would see low to mid 30s in the F80 on those kind of journeys. I managed 39mpg between Warwick and Shrewsbury once, driving with the imaginary egg under the throttle. Amazing for something not that light with 450bhp.

[cerb4.5lee]

m5wagon said:

Then there was that V10 engine - I don’t know what this nonsense is about lack of torque - the acceleration was rabid and the sound epic. I almost didn’t mind the thirst.

The torque is up high at 6100rpm and the kerbweight is 1850kg so maybe its that. I've not driven one, but I did think that the V8 M3 felt a little torque light. The M5's engine is in a different league though I'd imagine.

[Alex_225]

Despite not owning one, I am a big fan of the M5. I strongly considered either the E39 M5 and the E60 M5 a few years ago. Because at the time the car was intended to be my daily, the E39 seemed pricey but also a car that deserved to not be used as a family car, despite it's capabilities. The E60 worried me due to some of the SMG costs and in the end I opted for a very low mileage CLS63, which became a weekend car anyway despite the intention!

I don't regret my choice but I do still have a soft spot for that E39. It's just a cool car, it looks subtle but just right. I don't doubt the performance of the newer models but the E39 has the character.

[Jonny TVR]

The F10 should have been included and possibly the standard F90 instead of the competition.