RE: Manual, rear-drive BMW M3 'Pure' rumoured

[Ares]

SidewaysSi said:

cerb4.5lee said:

SidewaysSi said:

To be fair, an M3 hasn't really been a proper driver's car for some time. I assume the average buyer would cross shop with an Audi, Evoque etc.

I felt this with my E92 M3, great fun if you were acting like a clown(lighting the rears up/sideways fun). But for the rest of the time it actually felt like a comfortable GT...and it weighs as much as a 5 series so that probably explains why. I guess the Jekyll and Hyde nature is appealing to most though(the GT bit spoilt it for me).

Yep they are big and heavy old hectors. Add in poor steering, an excess of tech and some areas of dynamic weakness and they can be disappointing for some.

Saying that I do think they are a good base for a family car/daily - add some KWs, a CAE or similar and some Alcons etc then it could be an interesting car. Not sure if you can solve the steering on the new cars or if stuck with the standard set up though. But it all adds up - think I would want to drop over £10k ish on mods on an M3 to get it up to scratch.

If you judge all animals by their ability to climb a tree, fish will think they are worthless.

An M3 (and it's ilk) are perfect solutions to the market questions they seek to address. Perfect for the driver than needs to ferry a family around, do the school run, commute, shopping trips, the odd tip run, carry his/her bike/sports equipment, turn up to client meetings....but also want to have some fun when he/she is on their own, in the twisties or when nailing it away from a junction/down a motorway slip road. For those driver (I am one, and one of thousands) that genre of car is a perfect solution.

My car has more steering feel, more power, more dynamism that it really needs,...and any more would work against the car.

[anonymous-user]

SidewaysSi said:

To be fair, an M3 hasn't really been a proper driver's car for some time. I assume the average buyer would cross shop with an Audi, Evoque etc.

Yes, that’s exactly what happens.

Up and down the land there are countless M3 owners who almost bought an Evoque instead.

[SidewaysSi]

Ares said:

SidewaysSi said:

cerb4.5lee said:

SidewaysSi said:

To be fair, an M3 hasn't really been a proper driver's car for some time. I assume the average buyer would cross shop with an Audi, Evoque etc.

I felt this with my E92 M3, great fun if you were acting like a clown(lighting the rears up/sideways fun). But for the rest of the time it actually felt like a comfortable GT...and it weighs as much as a 5 series so that probably explains why. I guess the Jekyll and Hyde nature is appealing to most though(the GT bit spoilt it for me).

Yep they are big and heavy old hectors. Add in poor steering, an excess of tech and some areas of dynamic weakness and they can be disappointing for some.

Saying that I do think they are a good base for a family car/daily - add some KWs, a CAE or similar and some Alcons etc then it could be an interesting car. Not sure if you can solve the steering on the new cars or if stuck with the standard set up though. But it all adds up - think I would want to drop over £10k ish on mods on an M3 to get it up to scratch.

If you judge all animals by their ability to climb a tree, fish will think they are worthless.

An M3 (and it's ilk) are perfect solutions to the market questions they seek to address. Perfect for the driver than needs to ferry a family around, do the school run, commute, shopping trips, the odd tip run, carry his/her bike/sports equipment, turn up to client meetings....but also want to have some fun when he/she is on their own, in the twisties or when nailing it away from a junction/down a motorway slip road. For those driver (I am one, and one of thousands) that genre of car is a perfect solution.

My car has more steering feel, more power, more dynamism that it really needs,...and any more would work against the car.

And if you assume all animals like to eat wooly mammoth, you will have a lot of hungry animals. Including the aforementioned fish of course.

Edited by SidewaysSi on Friday 8th February 16:42

[Onehp]

Ares said:

And I didn't settle for anything. I got a car that out M3'd the M3...and had an electronic parking brake (as every competing car does )

And you still want to kill the fun for the likes of me° by removing that only option? I seriously don't get you. Unless you enjoy trolling...

°And anyone driving quick on asfalt on say a B-road, does that automatically imply they think are Senna or Hamilton? Narrow minded of you that thinks driver's cars are only made to have fun of high grip surfaces...

Edited by Onehp on Friday 8th February 14:36

[Barga]

In an auto the Ebrake is fine but in a manual I far prefer a proper handbrake.

[Ares]

Onehp said:

Ares said:

And I didn't settle for anything. I got a car that out M3'd the M3...and had an electronic parking brake (as every competing car does )

And you still want to kill the fun for the likes of me° by removing that only option? I seriously don't get you. Unless you enjoy trolling...

°And anyone driving quick on asfalt on say a B-road, does that automatically imply they think are Senna or Hamilton? Narrow minded of you that thinks driver's cars are only made to have fun of high grip surfaces...

Edited by Onehp on Friday 8th February 14:36

I don't want to kill it. I just see it as good progress, and not out of keeping for a 'pure model'. It's a great solution that doesn't affect the driving experience for everyone other than the 1 in 10,000,000 drivers that want to use the parking brake to slow down.

I'm also lost as to what the Senna/Hamilton/Grip quote has to do with an Electric Parking Brake??

[Barga]

“PURE” for different people means different things!

For me no auto, no ebrake and preferably light weight instead of more power.

The problem for me and some others is the choice is quickly being taken away which for most is not a problem.

P.S. I drive a heavy powerful packed full of electronic aids ,auto with an ebrake which I have never engaged.

[Onehp]

Ares said:

I'm also lost as to what the Senna/Hamilton/Grip quote has to do with an Electric Parking Brake??

Since using a handbrake apparently makes one a rally wannabe, only fair that high grip speeding makes you a F1 wannabe...

Ares said:

And as we have established, p a r k i n g brakes have nothing to do with d r i v i n g unless you think you're Ari Vatanen or Hanu Mikkula

)

You have established that, I disagree, it's a hand brake, parking is only one use. Again, world is bigger than your back yard...
Electronic is parking only indeed...

[Ares]

Onehp said:

Ares said:

I'm also lost as to what the Senna/Hamilton/Grip quote has to do with an Electric Parking Brake??

Since using a handbrake apparently makes one a rally wannabe, only fair that high grip speeding makes you a F1 wannabe...

Ares said:

And as we have established, p a r k i n g brakes have nothing to do with d r i v i n g unless you think you're Ari Vatanen or Hanu Mikkula

)

You have established that, I disagree, it's a hand brake, parking is only one use. Again, world is bigger than your back yard...
Electronic is parking only indeed...

Ok Ari.

[Tony B2]

E65Ross said:

I mean, do you use a TV remote, or do you walk up the TV to manually change channel because you prefer it old school? Heck, do you prefer cars where you must manually turn it over, or do you prefer a starter motor? Carburettor?

I can't see the problem with electric handbrakes. Driving along in traffic, come to a stop, take your foot off the brake and the handbrake gets applied. Put your foot on the throttle and it gets taken off and you move. What's wrong with that?

Since when is changing channels an intrinsic part of enjoying a TV programme? It is just a convenience.

Why would the action of starting an engine, with a proper modern starter motor, in any way reduce the enjoyment of driving that car? It is just a convenience which you use at the start of your journey.

Your arguments are....weird...

And electric handbrakes might do the job marginally better than manual handbrakes, some of the time, but can be a complete pain in the arse in some circumstances. The last one I tried would not disengage unless I had the seatbelt on. Which was more than slightly aggravating, in the hotel underground car park, as I tried to find a way of parking that allowed access to the boot.

And electric handbrakes with a manual....and clutch...no way.

And, and... they are just another thing to go wrong 2 months out of warranty.

[E65Ross]

Tony B2 said:

E65Ross said:

I mean, do you use a TV remote, or do you walk up the TV to manually change channel because you prefer it old school? Heck, do you prefer cars where you must manually turn it over, or do you prefer a starter motor? Carburettor?

I can't see the problem with electric handbrakes. Driving along in traffic, come to a stop, take your foot off the brake and the handbrake gets applied. Put your foot on the throttle and it gets taken off and you move. What's wrong with that?

Since when is changing channels an intrinsic part of enjoying a TV programme? It is just a convenience.

Why would the action of starting an engine, with a proper modern starter motor, in any way reduce the enjoyment of driving that car? It is just a convenience which you use at the start of your journey.

Your arguments are....weird...

And electric handbrakes might do the job marginally better than manual handbrakes, some of the time, but can be a complete pain in the arse in some circumstances. The last one I tried would not disengage unless I had the seatbelt on. Which was more than slightly aggravating, in the hotel underground car park, as I tried to find a way of parking that allowed access to the boot.

And electric handbrakes with a manual....and clutch...no way.

And, and... they are just another thing to go wrong 2 months out of warranty.

So the parking brake would stay on (ie parked) unless you too the seat belt off? You wanted something from the boot, I gather, why would you want the brake off when you're getting something from the boot? I don't understand.

[Ares]

E65Ross said:

So the parking brake would stay on (ie parked) unless you too the seat belt off? You wanted something from the boot, I gather, why would you want the brake off when you're getting something from the boot? I don't understand.

It's the need for control, not wanting the car to do anything for you, or stop you from doing exactly what you want, even if it means driving into wall or doing mechanical damage. In polite society, these people are usually referred to as luddites

[topaz]

Here we go again. A 'Drivers' car, 'Pure', What does that mean? A manual gearbox is old hat, just a cock waving tool for journalists as they are totally useless on today's roads. I can hear the 'purists' howling now so let me ask you this. I guess pure means you make all the decisions, not the car. If that's so, to be really pure get rid of the ABS, Traction control, Disc brakes, radial tyres and, to really be admired at the Purists Arms drinking real ale, scrap fuel injection, electronic ignition and syncromesh in your beloved manual box and then you will have to double de-clutch all the time or you won't get anywhere. Then you will make all the decisions and good luck with that. Having a manual gearbox doesn't make a car 'pure' so don't get so excited. No doubt BMW will charge a fortune for the gullible few that will fall for it.

[Mike335i]

topaz said:

Here we go again. A 'Drivers' car, 'Pure', What does that mean? A manual gearbox is old hat, just a cock waving tool for journalists as they are totally useless on today's roads. I can hear the 'purists' howling now so let me ask you this. I guess pure means you make all the decisions, not the car. If that's so, to be really pure get rid of the ABS, Traction control, Disc brakes, radial tyres and, to really be admired at the Purists Arms drinking real ale, scrap fuel injection, electronic ignition and syncromesh in your beloved manual box and then you will have to double de-clutch all the time or you won't get anywhere. Then you will make all the decisions and good luck with that. Having a manual gearbox doesn't make a car 'pure' so don't get so excited. No doubt BMW will charge a fortune for the gullible few that will fall for it.

You completely miss the point of the purists view I'm afraid. I use autos for work mostly, but for a drivers car I would go manual where I can.

Abs, TCS and all that you list are passive most of the time, they don't affect the driving. Being able to use a clutch and manually select gears has a difference. Some people actually like driving, including changing gears.

Some people like riding horses even though they have been superseded. Same with bicycles. Some like talking face to face even though facetime / Skype makes that redundant. Doesn't take them wrong.

Manual doesn't equal pure, but pure does equal manual to many.

Edit to fix the obvious typo...

Edited by Mike335i on Monday 18th February 19:46

[Ares]

Mike335i said:

topaz said:

Here we go again. A 'Drivers' car, 'Pure', What does that mean? A manual gearbox is old hat, just a cock waving tool for journalists as they are totally useless on today's roads. I can hear the 'purists' howling now so let me ask you this. I guess pure means you make all the decisions, not the car. If that's so, to be really pure get rid of the ABS, Traction control, Disc brakes, radial tyres and, to really be admired at the Purists Arms drinking real ale, scrap fuel injection, electronic ignition and syncromesh in your beloved manual box and then you will have to double de-clutch all the time or you won't get anywhere. Then you will make all the decisions and good luck with that. Having a manual gearbox doesn't make a car 'pure' so don't get so excited. No doubt BMW will charge a fortune for the gullible few that will fall for it.

You completely miss the point of the purists view I'm afraid. I use autos for work mostly, but for a drivers car I would go manual where I can.

Abs, TCS and all that you list are passive most of the time, they don't affect the driving. Being able to use a clutch and manually select gears has a difference. Some people actually like driving, including changing gears.

Some people like riding horses even though they have been superseded. Same with bicycles. Some like talking face to face even though facetime / Skype makes that redundant. Doesn't take them wrong.

Manual does equal pure, but pure does equal manual to many.

I totally get the pull of a manual. I wouldn't have one unless it was a better box than the auto/DSG/PDK (and the manual function of the auto), but when I'm in the mood to for greater engagement in my car, I'll use the paddles. They are less effective than letting the 'box shift itself, and the car is quicker in auto mode, but it does allow for extra engagement.

Alas, I've not driven a manual in the last 10yrs that was good, with lower demand, their development has plateaued, whereas auto's has gone stratospheric in comparison.

I do disagree with servo brakes, PAS and even ABS to an extent. I went from an Elise with no assistance to an Exige with some assistance. The Exige was a way better car, but it did lose a little driver engagement. Electronic Parking Brake is the one manual element I would still argue is obsolete now though, and aside from our regular 1980's Scandinavian rally wannabe, I see no driver using the parking brake to drive.

[myhandle]

G20. This was an Infiniti, based on th Primera. I guess Nissan can’t complain as it’s not a brand name, but an internal code.

[MitchT]

BSSBMW said:

All these people bemoaning manual gearboxes in BMWs!

FFS have any of you ever struggled to select a gear in one?

Funnily enough, my E36 (owned from new for almost 20 years), sometimes refuses to have first and I have to put it into second, then push it forward into first for it to go in. This has always been the case but only happens once in a blue moon. Other than that I love the shift - there's a definite sense of it slotting home - a little resistance and then it clicks into place in a really definite way. Other manual cars I've driven (most of them far more modern) have a gearshift that feels like stirring porridge by comparison.

[stabilio]

I always drive my M3 in manual mode via the paddles but would never entertain another car with a clutch and gearstick.
Many of my previous cars weren't available in manual so maybe I'm just used to paddles now.

[DSC OFF]

wasn't the alfa quad time set on stupidly sticky Trofeo's?

[Ares]

DSC OFF said:

wasn't the alfa quad time set on stupidly sticky Trofeo's?

No. OEM P-Zero Corsas.