RE: £240k Range Rover SV Coupe canned
Discussion
I liked the idea of this, as a modern day CSK "halo" model. It wasn't necessarily going to make a fortune for JLR after development costs were divided by 999, but it was going to drag the perception of the "normal" Range Rover upwards, perhaps to a level where a high-spec model could confidently be put alongside the Bentayga or new G-Wagen
What may have happened though is that the coupe was too samey for 2.5 times the cash, so it was just getting dragged *down* in perceived value to the extent buyers felt they were just being fleeced. Agree this could have sold OK in the long run internationally (with maybe a bit more pricing realism) but then you encroach on the next facelift/model of the normal car when your development costs are already sunk
I think AML got their fingers burnt a bit with this same overall approach for the Lagonda Taraf
What may have happened though is that the coupe was too samey for 2.5 times the cash, so it was just getting dragged *down* in perceived value to the extent buyers felt they were just being fleeced. Agree this could have sold OK in the long run internationally (with maybe a bit more pricing realism) but then you encroach on the next facelift/model of the normal car when your development costs are already sunk
I think AML got their fingers burnt a bit with this same overall approach for the Lagonda Taraf
They shouldn't have made it a limited run model, just another version of the Range Rover and priced it lower, I'm sure it would have sold.
They want to do ultra-luxury but they're not in the same market as Rolls-Royce or Bentley.
You can't on one hand bastardise the Range Rover brand offering lesser models that are in my view not true Range Rovers, only an "evoque'ation" and ask £250K for a car wearing the same badge.
They want to do ultra-luxury but they're not in the same market as Rolls-Royce or Bentley.
You can't on one hand bastardise the Range Rover brand offering lesser models that are in my view not true Range Rovers, only an "evoque'ation" and ask £250K for a car wearing the same badge.
Burwood said:
Talksteer said:
250k X 999 = £250million not a bad return
Though I expect that a combination of not enough deposits plus a few unexpected engineering changes like having to redesign an air bag or similar that would cost £5 million each would be enough to eat up any profit.
The smart money for JLR to address the premium market would be to do it with the defender like Mercedes-Benz have done with the G Wagon.
A valid point. 250 million is not the return. That’s the potential revenue. Who knows what the costs involved would be. JLR need to sell volume and pudding about with stupid projects like this isn’t going to help themThough I expect that a combination of not enough deposits plus a few unexpected engineering changes like having to redesign an air bag or similar that would cost £5 million each would be enough to eat up any profit.
The smart money for JLR to address the premium market would be to do it with the defender like Mercedes-Benz have done with the G Wagon.
For reference (not proper) Rolls-Royce expect to sell 2500-3000 Cullinans at an average sale price of £320,000. That comes out as an annual revenue of £800-1000 million.
The Bentley Monstrosity has about double the sales volume and just over half the price.
Both those brands have the benefit that they don't have a comparable mass market car to anchor the price point at a lower value.
The interesting one is that as the Land Rover Defender started to move out of production various special editions sold out at £150k price points. The base price of the G Wagon is £94k and £163k for the AMG plus ridiculous options.
The problem here is a lot of 'premium' auto makers are focussing on high-end expensive 'specials' to ensure they keep milking the rich (which is fine) whilst forgetting that they are no longer selling anything to anyone else...
In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory s
tfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.
They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory s
tfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
406dogvan said:
The problem here is a lot of 'premium' auto makers are focussing on high-end expensive 'specials' to ensure they keep milking the rich (which is fine) whilst forgetting that they are no longer selling anything to anyone else...
In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory stfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.
They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
If there was a market for a resilient, capable back to basics off roader there would be another manufacturer selling it. In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory s
tfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
The closest cars to that ideal would be mid size pickups but as you have to compete with brands that have much better production efficiencies and volumes I doubt that it would be a money spinner.
If I were pointing to an area I think Land Rover under invested I'd suggest that there is a place foe them in the upper mid to full size US pick-up market as a super premium pick up. However with the Rivian and Tesla pick-ups appearing soon the writing is probably on the wall for that end of the market.
406dogvan said:
The problem here is a lot of 'premium' auto makers are focussing on high-end expensive 'specials' to ensure they keep milking the rich (which is fine) whilst forgetting that they are no longer selling anything to anyone else...
In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory stfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.
They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
Why do LR themed posts attract such a volume of cut and paste cobblers ?In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory s
tfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
406dogvan said:
The problem here is a lot of 'premium' auto makers are focussing on high-end expensive 'specials' to ensure they keep milking the rich (which is fine) whilst forgetting that they are no longer selling anything to anyone else...
In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory stfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.
They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
I'd argue LR isn't a maker of utility vehicles anymore, and probably hasn't been since the 80's when the original RR launched a collaboration with Vogue Magazine. They launched the original Discovery with an interior designed by the Middle Class' then favourite designer - Conran. Arguably since the 80's and definitely since the 90's - they've predominantly made lifestyle vehicles, with Defenders still being made but not selling in any huge numbers in comparison. In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory s
tfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
What percentage of the old Defender do you think were sold, brand new (because that's who manufacturers make money from) to Farmers in the last, say, 3 years of it's life. I'd wager less than 20%.
What percentage do you think were sold to Middle-Class families who use them as a lifestyle vehicle? I'd wager it's probably 80%.
Why? Because for most farmers, Pickups are more suitable. Cheaper, more practical, more reliable, more economical, more comfortable and with a lot more space.
With that in-mind, why would JLR specifically design and then manufacture a product for people who don't buy them? Seems a bit daft to me.
The new one will be bought mostly by middle-class families who live in the civilised Countryside and will be most often seen outside coffee shops, yoga studios, farmers markets, horse enclosures, school playing fields, beaches, ski resorts and dog walking spots the length and breadth of the country.
I bet they'll sell thousands of them, and I bet that not one single buyer will ask if it has locking differentials, beam axle or independent suspension, coil springs or air, wading depth, breakover angle, departure angle or how many ewes you can fit in the back.
The 4x4 brigade with their One Life, Live It stickers, Winch bumpers, Sand Ladders, Tactical Sandwich Boxes, Zip Ties and Spade (who would never even think of buying a new one) will huff and puff and threaten to blow the house down about how JLR have "Forgotten their heritage" and all the while, no-one will care and JLR will make a shed load of cash.
camel_landy said:
Stunning looking car...
...but thanks to the availability of the cheap & nasty, entry-level cars on PCP, the Range Rover isn't as exclusive as it used to be.
M
Right. It isn't as exclusive. But JLR sell more of them, so make more money....but thanks to the availability of the cheap & nasty, entry-level cars on PCP, the Range Rover isn't as exclusive as it used to be.
M
Should they deliberately sell fewer cars and make less money to retain some notion of exclusivity; whilst they're doing that, turn potential customers into one of the myriad of alternatives?
It's a wonder PH don't run a car company with that kind of business insight.
As predicted this will descend in to a nonsense debate about how LR have ruined things by introducing the Evoque and should make some kind of cheap shed for farmers and the off road crowd who run 30 year old Disco's. Porsche have done just fine by introducing the Boxter & Macan and still be able to sell 911's that go for stupid money.
Admittedly LR are in a quandary at the moment with a combination of too many diesel models & some issues with quality and some of their dealers attitudes. They aint gonna solve it by making a cheap piece of crap for the 4x4 response brigade.
LR haven't been in the business of making cars for farmers to chuck sheep in since the day they put leather seats in the original Range Rover. Every model of Range Rover has become progressively more luxurious whilst still holding onto it's off road capability as that's what the market wanted.
The coupe came just at the wrong time for LR. RR, Bentley & Lambo entered the market and have definitely stolen some of the high end SUV market & I can imagine the ultra high end market will definitely shift across to RR or Bentley.
To remain stable they've got to max out the lower end of their range where the volume is, The Evoques & Disco Sport need to be top notch to compete in that market + they need to get a jump on the market with an EV. I can imagine a RR Sport with Tesla range would have people falling over themselves to buy.
Admittedly LR are in a quandary at the moment with a combination of too many diesel models & some issues with quality and some of their dealers attitudes. They aint gonna solve it by making a cheap piece of crap for the 4x4 response brigade.
LR haven't been in the business of making cars for farmers to chuck sheep in since the day they put leather seats in the original Range Rover. Every model of Range Rover has become progressively more luxurious whilst still holding onto it's off road capability as that's what the market wanted.
The coupe came just at the wrong time for LR. RR, Bentley & Lambo entered the market and have definitely stolen some of the high end SUV market & I can imagine the ultra high end market will definitely shift across to RR or Bentley.
To remain stable they've got to max out the lower end of their range where the volume is, The Evoques & Disco Sport need to be top notch to compete in that market + they need to get a jump on the market with an EV. I can imagine a RR Sport with Tesla range would have people falling over themselves to buy.
Tom_Spotley_When said:
406dogvan said:
The problem here is a lot of 'premium' auto makers are focussing on high-end expensive 'specials' to ensure they keep milking the rich (which is fine) whilst forgetting that they are no longer selling anything to anyone else...
In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory stfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.
They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
I'd argue LR isn't a maker of utility vehicles anymore, and probably hasn't been since the 80's when the original RR launched a collaboration with Vogue Magazine. They launched the original Discovery with an interior designed by the Middle Class' then favourite designer - Conran. Arguably since the 80's and definitely since the 90's - they've predominantly made lifestyle vehicles, with Defenders still being made but not selling in any huge numbers in comparison. In order to make vehicles like this, you need a platform to build them on - you need to sell basic Range Rovers before you can sell premium one-offs/limited editions and you need to remember what you actually do as a core business (long since forgotten at JLR)
JLR no longer sell an actual off-roader you can use on a farm/clean with a hose - the classic 'horsey' type (or Queen's Husband!!) can no longer purchase that Freelander because they replaced it with a handbag accessory s
tfest of a vehicle lusted after by middle class wannabees etc. etc.They even seem destined to market the new Defender as a premium brand/celeb endorsed thing - if they do that, they WILL go bust - I'll bet money on that.
p.s. also the 4 cylinder F Type was a very, very silly idea ;0
What percentage of the old Defender do you think were sold, brand new (because that's who manufacturers make money from) to Farmers in the last, say, 3 years of it's life. I'd wager less than 20%.
What percentage do you think were sold to Middle-Class families who use them as a lifestyle vehicle? I'd wager it's probably 80%.
Why? Because for most farmers, Pickups are more suitable. Cheaper, more practical, more reliable, more economical, more comfortable and with a lot more space.
With that in-mind, why would JLR specifically design and then manufacture a product for people who don't buy them? Seems a bit daft to me.
The new one will be bought mostly by middle-class families who live in the civilised Countryside and will be most often seen outside coffee shops, yoga studios, farmers markets, horse enclosures, school playing fields, beaches, ski resorts and dog walking spots the length and breadth of the country.
I bet they'll sell thousands of them, and I bet that not one single buyer will ask if it has locking differentials, beam axle or independent suspension, coil springs or air, wading depth, breakover angle, departure angle or how many ewes you can fit in the back.
The 4x4 brigade with their One Life, Live It stickers, Winch bumpers, Sand Ladders, Tactical Sandwich Boxes, Zip Ties and Spade (who would never even think of buying a new one) will huff and puff and threaten to blow the house down about how JLR have "Forgotten their heritage" and all the while, no-one will care and JLR will make a shed load of cash.
Everytime JLR is mentioned on this website it turns into a rant about why they should go back to building cars for 'off-road enthusiasts and farmers'. All three of them. Not to mention the complaints about build quality from the 'a mate of a mate had one' brigade.
In the last full year of Defender production (2015) LR sold less than 25,000, and that was a big leap on prior years as people like Twisted bought them up before they disappeared. In the same year they sold around 110,000 Evoques, 87000 RR Sports and 60,000 Full Fat RR's. I'd wager that those three models combined in one year would represent more profit to JLR that the Defender had brought in total since the 80's.
They don't make those kinds of cars anymore because barely anyone bought them when they did! It is sad but that's how the world works.
For what it is, it's not a bad looking behemoth.. I have to say I'd be shocked if they couldn't sell 1000 of them worldwide. I don't think practical logic gets too involved in purchasing choice, at that end of the market. Big, butch and stylish. Sold!
Now I don't know how much this is reality or how much the usual media attempts to sensationalise the issue (PH included) but JLR do sound in a bit of a tizzy at the moment. They're not really displaying a vast amount of market confidence, and that momentum can accelerate if they're not careful.
Now I don't know how much this is reality or how much the usual media attempts to sensationalise the issue (PH included) but JLR do sound in a bit of a tizzy at the moment. They're not really displaying a vast amount of market confidence, and that momentum can accelerate if they're not careful.
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