RE: Mountune launches m400X map for Focus RS

RE: Mountune launches m400X map for Focus RS

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Discussion

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
rottenegg said:
Pushing a rod out of the block for 500hp you mean biglaugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5LrRndgqJQ
Watched until he talked and said 'I have no money'.

Tuning to get more than you can actually afford will never work indeed...

The limit for the conrods is somewhere around 650Nm, but there is variance and with tuning you always eat away from the margins untill at some point there isn't any left. Didn't watch but americans generally seem fairly unfamiliar with the concept of moderation (of torque on turbo tunes)...

Thankfully nobody blew there RS engine yet... wink


Frimley111R

15,538 posts

233 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Onehp said:
With similar mods but without opening the engine, the smaller 2.0 VAG ea888 g.3 will push for 500bhp...
Not for long it won't!

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Frimley111R said:
Not for long it won't!
Depends on the torque biggrin
Lots of tuned ones out there, some will always try to get too much or just plainly do it wrong and detonate...

Ultrafunkula

996 posts

104 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Onehp said:
Sounds costly.

With similar mods but without opening the engine, the smaller 2.0 VAG ea888 g.3 will push for 500bhp...

But there is more to driving than Power (unless you live at the Autobahn or have to win at Santa Pod), and as such if I had an FRS I would setttle for the 375 kit...
That's very true, the EA888 was the most boring engine I've ever owned. Impressive but boring.
For me the MP375 kit would be essential for the FRS, along with an LSD.

Limpet

6,293 posts

160 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Onehp said:
rottenegg said:
Pushing a rod out of the block for 500hp you mean biglaugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5LrRndgqJQ
Watched until he talked and said 'I have no money'.

Tuning to get more than you can actually afford will never work indeed...

The limit for the conrods is somewhere around 650Nm, but there is variance and with tuning you always eat away from the margins untill at some point there isn't any left. Didn't watch but americans generally seem fairly unfamiliar with the concept of moderation (of torque on turbo tunes)...

Thankfully nobody blew there RS engine yet... wink
That age old adage. Power, reliability, low cost. Pick two.



rottenegg

342 posts

62 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Onehp said:
rottenegg said:
Pushing a rod out of the block for 500hp you mean biglaugh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5LrRndgqJQ
Watched until he talked and said 'I have no money'.

Tuning to get more than you can actually afford will never work indeed...

The limit for the conrods is somewhere around 650Nm, but there is variance and with tuning you always eat away from the margins untill at some point there isn't any left. Didn't watch but americans generally seem fairly unfamiliar with the concept of moderation (of torque on turbo tunes)...

Thankfully nobody blew there RS engine yet... wink
Yeah it took him a while to get to the money shots! There is a separate video showing the complete carnage, which again, takes many minutes to get to, as is so often the case with American car vloggers.

The rods are rated to 650nm, or the whole reciprocating mass? I'm not a measurement of twist applies to a part subjected to pressure and inertia?

Anyway, my point was the EA888.3 is not 'comfortable' running 500bhp in standard form. It's ~150hp above what VW's engineers rated the engine to. You can certainly see how thin the block is where the rod made a bid for freedom!




IanJ9375

1,467 posts

215 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
sgtbash said:
Just for 400!! That motor is horrendous.
Revo, Litchfield and others will do you more without the rods/pistons - Mountune always on the conservative side for safety

rottenegg

342 posts

62 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
IanJ9375 said:
sgtbash said:
Just for 400!! That motor is horrendous.
Revo, Litchfield and others will do you more without the rods/pistons - Mountune always on the conservative side for safety
Which is the best approach, imo. When you've got 375bhp to begin with, another 25 isn't going to blow your skirt up.

J4CKO

41,287 posts

199 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Get am M140i plus a tuning box if you want big numbers for not much money, ok, you wont be able to put it down most of the time but they do seem to cope very well at 430 bhp plus.

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
rottenegg said:
Yeah it took him a while to get to the money shots! There is a separate video showing the complete carnage, which again, takes many minutes to get to, as is so often the case with American car vloggers.

The rods are rated to 650nm, or the whole reciprocating mass? I'm not a measurement of twist applies to a part subjected to pressure and inertia?

Anyway, my point was the EA888.3 is not 'comfortable' running 500bhp in standard form. It's ~150hp above what VW's engineers rated the engine to. You can certainly see how thin the block is where the rod made a bid for freedom!
I wouldn't think it is comfortable either, 650Nm equates to a lot of cylinder pressure way beyond OEM. Assuming stock rpms.
But consensus is that the 500hp engines don't break for at least a few years...

Personally I play it a lot safer...

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
Get am M140i plus a tuning box if you want big numbers for not much money, ok, you wont be able to put it down most of the time but they do seem to cope very well at 430 bhp plus.
No xdrive in the UK? It's a great engine for sure, 30% more displacement helps...

J4CKO

41,287 posts

199 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Onehp said:
J4CKO said:
Get am M140i plus a tuning box if you want big numbers for not much money, ok, you wont be able to put it down most of the time but they do seem to cope very well at 430 bhp plus.
No xdrive in the UK? It's a great engine for sure, 30% more displacement helps...
Yeah, unlike the 4 cyl engines they run lower boost pressures, think its 0.65 or thereabouts as standard where the 4 cyl stuff runs 1.5 or more, the tuning boxes seem to raise boost to 1.1 bar on the BMW sixes, some of the 4 cyl stuff is being mapped to 2 bar or more.

Throw a bigger turbo into the mix and map it for huge torque and the con rods end up like a Curly Wurly on a hot day, they are pretty strong but are specced to handle 300 ish lb ft with a margin, put some stronger ones in and then it finds the next weakest link.

The trouble is it is a addictive, my thinking is with most modern engines you can get away with a sympathetic remap and a few supporting mods but it does seem to end in tears when bigger turbos get mentioned in conjunction with an otherwise standard engine. Best to look for a car that is faster as standard or get ready for spending !


rottenegg

342 posts

62 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Onehp said:
rottenegg said:
Yeah it took him a while to get to the money shots! There is a separate video showing the complete carnage, which again, takes many minutes to get to, as is so often the case with American car vloggers.

The rods are rated to 650nm, or the whole reciprocating mass? I'm not a measurement of twist applies to a part subjected to pressure and inertia?

Anyway, my point was the EA888.3 is not 'comfortable' running 500bhp in standard form. It's ~150hp above what VW's engineers rated the engine to. You can certainly see how thin the block is where the rod made a bid for freedom!
I wouldn't think it is comfortable either, 650Nm equates to a lot of cylinder pressure way beyond OEM. Assuming stock rpms.
But consensus is that the 500hp engines don't break for at least a few years...

Personally I play it a lot safer...
Yep, because the engine very rarely produces the full 500hp. It's usually a few years with the odd squirt once or twice a week, or a year if driven hard regularly. There's never any context provided in tuned engine failure stories.

Agreed. It's easy to take away the safety margin. The standard engine's tune fires a few degrees ATDC in the high load points. And then tuner X comes along, throws in more boost and more timing. Customer then accidentally fills up with 95, the ignition retarding runs out of adjustment and a ring land cracks.....or worse.



Edited by rottenegg on Tuesday 5th February 12:02

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
rottenegg said:
Yep, because the engine very rarely produces the full 500hp. It's usually a few years with the odd squirt once or twice a week, or a year if driven hard regularly. There's never any context provided in tuned engine failure stories.

Agreed. It's easy to take away the safety margin. The standard engine's tune fires a few degrees ATDC in the high load points. And then tuner X comes along, throws in more boost and more timing. Customer then accidentally fills up with 95, the ignition retarding runs out of adjustment and a ring land cracks.....or worse.
Indeed. Tuning is essentially that, plucking out more and when things get too hot, let the ECU dial back, hoping it's not too late. Since there is no realistic use of 500hp continuously for most owners, things keep together. For a while. But it wouldn't last long on track. OEM engines should be able to run full power basically continuously, autobahn, on track etc in less than ideal atmospheric conditions. If you want more power in such conditions, you need to increase flow efficiency and/or cooling (more fuel if emissions go out the door only does so much). And forget about increasing power more than give or take 25% (unless the base engine was detuned - for real).

For me hardware always beats software... ideally the latter supports improvements in the former... So if I gave impression of something else, to be clear I do not 'recommend' running 500hp on a 2L and I very much respect the stance that Mountune takes.

Edited by Onehp on Tuesday 5th February 13:18

noble12345

362 posts

215 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Squeezing a Lemon? do you get free Pancakes? rofl

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
Onehp said:
Frimley111R said:
Not for long it won't!
Depends on the torque biggrin
Lots of tuned ones out there, some will always try to get too much or just plainly do it wrong and detonate...
To be fair, I've seen 3 blow up in person..........

oobster

7,065 posts

210 months

Tuesday 5th February 2019
quotequote all
The promise of more POWAH is tempting, but I think i'll stick with my FPM375 map+mods even after the warranty runs out in December, I like to sleep soundly without worrying about the engine going pop.

jack_86

335 posts

91 months

Wednesday 6th February 2019
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Why can’t they make a fast ford that hasn’t been designed for the cover of max power. To me it looks like someone has just bolted Halfords wheels and a wing to it

Onehp

1,617 posts

282 months

Wednesday 6th February 2019
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
Onehp said:
Frimley111R said:
Not for long it won't!
Depends on the torque biggrin
Lots of tuned ones out there, some will always try to get too much or just plainly do it wrong and detonate...
To be fair, I've seen 3 blow up in person..........
Any more info? Good to know...

Frimley111R

15,538 posts

233 months

Wednesday 6th February 2019
quotequote all
Limpet said:
That age old adage. Power, reliability, low cost. Pick two.
Good one