RE: Why Morgan sold itself to the Italians
Discussion
I guess there are still Ariel and Caterham, and they are probably the most authentic sports car producers on the planet. This was going to happen at Morgan, there was no way of reconciling the differences among the family and Charles Morgan was never going to be an acceptable or effective Chief Executive. Hopefully what they do in Malvern will continue. That is the single vital thing. Morgan’s problems are different from the big boys problems. They are clearly carrying out chassis development. The cars are going to get more expensive as they deal with the safety issues associated with selling more cars to a global market. I would advise anyone who wants a Morgan to buy one now. A nicely specced 4/4 right now is an unbelievable bargain.
Are II bad guys? Probably not, but they will not carry a marque like Morgan, or Aston Martin for that matter through a bad patch, as VW or BMW probably would. We are going into a bad patch so we are going to find out.
Are II bad guys? Probably not, but they will not carry a marque like Morgan, or Aston Martin for that matter through a bad patch, as VW or BMW probably would. We are going into a bad patch so we are going to find out.
Edited by cardigankid on Sunday 10th March 11:16
Truckosaurus said:
saaby93 said:
Is that the last British car manufacturer gone?
No, FIAT is still headquartered in London. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Manley_(CEO)
CABC said:
i can't see any synergy with Morgan as it is and a fund. however, Morgan as it is would struggle in the future and so changes are needed. i guess they'll leverage the brand with new manufacturing and greater numbers into new markets. so the traditional market won't like it but then they were dying out away anyway.
Harvey-Jones was sent packing, and to a degree for good reason back then as the then customer base didn't want a 'manufactured' product. Plus Six looks appropriate for the future 'traditional' Morgan.
hopefully quality will improve too, because for a product that hasn't changed much in decades it is shocking.
What utter drivel. The cars of the 70’s were indeed poor but today they are beautifully built.Harvey-Jones was sent packing, and to a degree for good reason back then as the then customer base didn't want a 'manufactured' product. Plus Six looks appropriate for the future 'traditional' Morgan.
hopefully quality will improve too, because for a product that hasn't changed much in decades it is shocking.
I had a 2013 4/4 and it was excellent throughout.
Alloy wings. Stainless Bulkhead. Galvo Chassis.
The Muirhead leather was beautifully trimmed. The easy-up hood fits tight as a drum and is a delight to use.
The only problem is the price has leapt from £30k to circa £40k+ in only a few years.
I’m very displeased Morgan has be sold. First they got rid of Charles now the family have sold it.
Morgan was one of the very last British companies owned by UK ceded people. I actually think it’s a total disgrace that this has been allowed to occur. There should be legislation in place to prevent selling off the UK’s “family silver”
W11PEL said:
What utter drivel. The cars of the 70’s were indeed poor but today they are beautifully built.
I had a 2013 4/4 and it was excellent throughout.
Alloy wings. Stainless Bulkhead. Galvo Chassis.
The Muirhead leather was beautifully trimmed. The easy-up hood fits tight as a drum and is a delight to use.
The only problem is the price has leapt from £30k to circa £40k+ in only a few years.
I’m very displeased Morgan has be sold. First they got rid of Charles now the family have sold it.
Morgan was one of the very last British companies owned by UK ceded people. I actually think it’s a total disgrace that this has been allowed to occur. There should be legislation in place to prevent selling off the UK’s “family silver”
i'm glad your experience has been delightful.I had a 2013 4/4 and it was excellent throughout.
Alloy wings. Stainless Bulkhead. Galvo Chassis.
The Muirhead leather was beautifully trimmed. The easy-up hood fits tight as a drum and is a delight to use.
The only problem is the price has leapt from £30k to circa £40k+ in only a few years.
I’m very displeased Morgan has be sold. First they got rid of Charles now the family have sold it.
Morgan was one of the very last British companies owned by UK ceded people. I actually think it’s a total disgrace that this has been allowed to occur. There should be legislation in place to prevent selling off the UK’s “family silver”
Drivel? i'm far from the only one to have had a bad experience in recent years (are you on TM?), and when it's 50k for an old design i'm disappointed. my Lotus cost less, is a year older, gets driven way more aggressively and has had far fewer problems. the quality issues are mainly around cheap components rather than the craftsmanship at PL.
An interesting watch - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDCu_ScK2_g
Reported this morning:-
"Aston Martin Lagonda shares fell 6% to £10.92 yesterday. ‘Equity markets have already re-priced shares for a more muted margin outlook versus IPO expectations,’ he said.
‘Management still needs to deliver without further mishap but it is largely up to controlling shareholders and the board to address insufficient liquidity, both on the balance sheet and in the market. We are not clear how this can be done without more debt or new equity.’ "
Meanwhile, per the Sunday Times Business Section at the weekend, Dr. Andy Palmer was awarded a share bonus (at issue price) amounting to £62m, much of which he is taking immediately, and of course paying tax on.
He may have done OK, and no more than OK, but he has not done £62m OK. At a time when AML are struggling for liquidity there is no way AP should be taking this. For what? A few publicity stunts? The DB11 is good, but the interior is poor. Who signed that off? The Vantage is flawed and not selling well enough as a result. The DBS Superleggera is less convincing on the road imho than on paper. All of them are not just based but dependent on a Mercedes Benz drivetrain that is so obviously Mercedes Benz that you may as well buy an AMG GT. Three cars at the Geneva Show which are little more than three versions of the same car? AML are going to take on Tesla and JLR with their electric Lagonda, they are going to take on the Cullinan, Bentayga and Range Rover with the DBX, and they are going to beat Ferrari, McLaren and Lamborghini at their own game? All at the same time? When the markets are pointing out that they haven't the money to do it? This is just Dany Bahar on a big scale.
Palmer is a charlatan. Even more so in taking such a huge sum out of the company when it is crying out for cash investment.
AML shareholders are going to lose their shirts, and once more AML is going to be on the verge of bankruptcy. On this basis we can see Morgan dressed up for an IPO but in reality starved of cash, while the fat cats walk off with the money.
Would VW and BMW have done that with Bentley and Rolls-Royce? No, they could have but they wouldn't. AML should have been sold to Daimler Benz. Morgan should have been sold to Honda. Committed car producers who understand the brands and would have invested for the long term. Once again short termism triumphs.
"Aston Martin Lagonda shares fell 6% to £10.92 yesterday. ‘Equity markets have already re-priced shares for a more muted margin outlook versus IPO expectations,’ he said.
‘Management still needs to deliver without further mishap but it is largely up to controlling shareholders and the board to address insufficient liquidity, both on the balance sheet and in the market. We are not clear how this can be done without more debt or new equity.’ "
Meanwhile, per the Sunday Times Business Section at the weekend, Dr. Andy Palmer was awarded a share bonus (at issue price) amounting to £62m, much of which he is taking immediately, and of course paying tax on.
He may have done OK, and no more than OK, but he has not done £62m OK. At a time when AML are struggling for liquidity there is no way AP should be taking this. For what? A few publicity stunts? The DB11 is good, but the interior is poor. Who signed that off? The Vantage is flawed and not selling well enough as a result. The DBS Superleggera is less convincing on the road imho than on paper. All of them are not just based but dependent on a Mercedes Benz drivetrain that is so obviously Mercedes Benz that you may as well buy an AMG GT. Three cars at the Geneva Show which are little more than three versions of the same car? AML are going to take on Tesla and JLR with their electric Lagonda, they are going to take on the Cullinan, Bentayga and Range Rover with the DBX, and they are going to beat Ferrari, McLaren and Lamborghini at their own game? All at the same time? When the markets are pointing out that they haven't the money to do it? This is just Dany Bahar on a big scale.
Palmer is a charlatan. Even more so in taking such a huge sum out of the company when it is crying out for cash investment.
AML shareholders are going to lose their shirts, and once more AML is going to be on the verge of bankruptcy. On this basis we can see Morgan dressed up for an IPO but in reality starved of cash, while the fat cats walk off with the money.
Would VW and BMW have done that with Bentley and Rolls-Royce? No, they could have but they wouldn't. AML should have been sold to Daimler Benz. Morgan should have been sold to Honda. Committed car producers who understand the brands and would have invested for the long term. Once again short termism triumphs.
cardigankid said:
He may have done OK, and no more than OK, but he has not done £62m OK. At a time when AML are struggling for liquidity there is no way AP should be taking this...Palmer is a charlatan. Even more so in taking such a huge sum out of the company when it is crying out for cash investment....AML shareholders are going to lose their shirts, and once more AML is going to be on the verge of bankruptcy.
Meh. All foreseeable and laid out before hand. The lack of liquidity, balance sheet and market, are their own doing - they only floated something like 25% which would constrain market liquidity and the money raised from that went to selling shareholders, not into the business. The IPO had ridiculously high costs due to management awards like that, so it's not like he's doing anything of his own accord or unexpected there. As for shareholders losing their shirts, there was a lot of commentary at the time involving references to bargepoles, if people chose to ignore that, more fool them.Edited to add: their Geneva announcements also seemed a bit reminiscent of Lotus under Bahar, a bit overoptimistic.
Edited by JxJ Jr. on Tuesday 19th March 11:07
cardigankid said:
Reported this morning:-
"Aston Martin Lagonda shares fell 6% to £10.92 yesterday. ‘Equity markets have already re-priced shares for a more muted margin outlook versus IPO expectations,’ he said.
‘Management still needs to deliver without further mishap but it is largely up to controlling shareholders and the board to address insufficient liquidity, both on the balance sheet and in the market. We are not clear how this can be done without more debt or new equity.’ "
Meanwhile, per the Sunday Times Business Section at the weekend, Dr. Andy Palmer was awarded a share bonus (at issue price) amounting to £62m, much of which he is taking immediately, and of course paying tax on.
He may have done OK, and no more than OK, but he has not done £62m OK. At a time when AML are struggling for liquidity there is no way AP should be taking this. For what? A few publicity stunts? The DB11 is good, but the interior is poor. Who signed that off? The Vantage is flawed and not selling well enough as a result. The DBS Superleggera is less convincing on the road imho than on paper. All of them are not just based but dependent on a Mercedes Benz drivetrain that is so obviously Mercedes Benz that you may as well buy an AMG GT. Three cars at the Geneva Show which are little more than three versions of the same car? AML are going to take on Tesla and JLR with their electric Lagonda, they are going to take on the Cullinan, Bentayga and Range Rover with the DBX, and they are going to beat Ferrari, McLaren and Lamborghini at their own game? All at the same time? When the markets are pointing out that they haven't the money to do it? This is just Dany Bahar on a big scale.
Palmer is a charlatan. Even more so in taking such a huge sum out of the company when it is crying out for cash investment.
AML shareholders are going to lose their shirts, and once more AML is going to be on the verge of bankruptcy. On this basis we can see Morgan dressed up for an IPO but in reality starved of cash, while the fat cats walk off with the money.
Would VW and BMW have done that with Bentley and Rolls-Royce? No, they could have but they wouldn't. AML should have been sold to Daimler Benz. Morgan should have been sold to Honda. Committed car producers who understand the brands and would have invested for the long term. Once again short termism triumphs.
I suspect I'm not alone in not seeing the point of AM anymore, mainly due to MB power units. They've been moving away from what they once stood for since the DB7 turned up. Look inside the outgoing Ford based V12 and it had Mondeo conrods FFS. As pretty and capable the old 2000's stuff was, the V8 Coupe that finished around 1989 was the last of the proper ones for me. The fact that one Man built the engine and put his name to it told you wahat they were about, but I doubt many buyers give a s"Aston Martin Lagonda shares fell 6% to £10.92 yesterday. ‘Equity markets have already re-priced shares for a more muted margin outlook versus IPO expectations,’ he said.
‘Management still needs to deliver without further mishap but it is largely up to controlling shareholders and the board to address insufficient liquidity, both on the balance sheet and in the market. We are not clear how this can be done without more debt or new equity.’ "
Meanwhile, per the Sunday Times Business Section at the weekend, Dr. Andy Palmer was awarded a share bonus (at issue price) amounting to £62m, much of which he is taking immediately, and of course paying tax on.
He may have done OK, and no more than OK, but he has not done £62m OK. At a time when AML are struggling for liquidity there is no way AP should be taking this. For what? A few publicity stunts? The DB11 is good, but the interior is poor. Who signed that off? The Vantage is flawed and not selling well enough as a result. The DBS Superleggera is less convincing on the road imho than on paper. All of them are not just based but dependent on a Mercedes Benz drivetrain that is so obviously Mercedes Benz that you may as well buy an AMG GT. Three cars at the Geneva Show which are little more than three versions of the same car? AML are going to take on Tesla and JLR with their electric Lagonda, they are going to take on the Cullinan, Bentayga and Range Rover with the DBX, and they are going to beat Ferrari, McLaren and Lamborghini at their own game? All at the same time? When the markets are pointing out that they haven't the money to do it? This is just Dany Bahar on a big scale.
Palmer is a charlatan. Even more so in taking such a huge sum out of the company when it is crying out for cash investment.
AML shareholders are going to lose their shirts, and once more AML is going to be on the verge of bankruptcy. On this basis we can see Morgan dressed up for an IPO but in reality starved of cash, while the fat cats walk off with the money.
Would VW and BMW have done that with Bentley and Rolls-Royce? No, they could have but they wouldn't. AML should have been sold to Daimler Benz. Morgan should have been sold to Honda. Committed car producers who understand the brands and would have invested for the long term. Once again short termism triumphs.
t now. How much is it per month and does it look good? But they rarely made a bean of profit in the DB and Gauntlet days, if ever.I'm not sure Honda would buy Morgan; they would only take a 49% share in Rover from BAE as they insisted it had to remain British otherwise what was the point? But Morgan is a treasure than needs protecting.
JxJ Jr. said:
cardigankid said:
He may have done OK, and no more than OK, but he has not done £62m OK. At a time when AML are struggling for liquidity there is no way AP should be taking this...Palmer is a charlatan. Even more so in taking such a huge sum out of the company when it is crying out for cash investment....AML shareholders are going to lose their shirts, and once more AML is going to be on the verge of bankruptcy.
Meh. All foreseeable and laid out before hand. The lack of liquidity, balance sheet and market, are their own doing - they only floated something like 25% which would constrain market liquidity and the money raised from that went to selling shareholders, not into the business. The IPO had ridiculously high costs due to management awards like that, so it's not like he's doing anything of his own accord or unexpected there. As for shareholders losing their shirts, there was a lot of commentary at the time involving references to bargepoles, if people chose to ignore that, more fool them.Edited to add: their Geneva announcements also seemed a bit reminiscent of Lotus under Bahar, a bit overoptimistic.
cardigankid said:
I would not have put money into it either, but clearly someone did, and all I am saying is that the guys with their names on the share certificates are going to lose their money. That is no way to run a car company.
Yep, made a paper loss already if not an actual loss. I understand employees are amongst those who bought in, can't be good for morale when people see their investment losing a third whilst simultaneously seeing the CEO earn £60m odd for it. This was mentioned in the Telegraph yesterday: "...adding that the company is dependent on customer deposits to fund its day-to-day operations", not a good position to be in.JxJ Jr. said:
cardigankid said:
I would not have put money into it either, but clearly someone did, and all I am saying is that the guys with their names on the share certificates are going to lose their money. That is no way to run a car company.
Yep, made a paper loss already if not an actual loss. I understand employees are amongst those who bought in, can't be good for morale when people see their investment losing a third whilst simultaneously seeing the CEO earn £60m odd for it. This was mentioned in the Telegraph yesterday: "...adding that the company is dependent on customer deposits to fund its day-to-day operations", not a good position to be in.Can we all give it a go
And without wishing to be pessimistic, would you put down a hefty deposit under those circumstances? I'm guessing that now that he has got his £60m, AP will shortly step down, on the basis that 'his job here is done'. As I said, a charlatan. What was so wrong with Bez?
I also imagine one of the ideas behind the IPO was that any space cadets who might want to hold AML shares for non-commercial reasons, rather in the way you might hold shares in a football club, whether they rise or fall, would have a chance to buy them.
I also imagine one of the ideas behind the IPO was that any space cadets who might want to hold AML shares for non-commercial reasons, rather in the way you might hold shares in a football club, whether they rise or fall, would have a chance to buy them.
Edited by cardigankid on Thursday 21st March 14:13
bertie said:
DSC OFF said:
dbroughton said:
Is it just me or are Morgans getting more interesting as I get older (51 in a couple of weeks)?
I love my Boxster S but perhaps its a little too ubiquitous. Meanwhile all the interesting sports car action now seems to happening at 6 figures plus. The new Plus 6 seems to occupy that space once occupied by the Esprit or TVR. The look nothing alike but they all possess that affordable (ish) British quirkiness. The older Morgans just seemed a little eccentric
even at 35, I know how you are thinking, I find the new plus 6 very appealing as a sunday mooch out grand tourerI love my Boxster S but perhaps its a little too ubiquitous. Meanwhile all the interesting sports car action now seems to happening at 6 figures plus. The new Plus 6 seems to occupy that space once occupied by the Esprit or TVR. The look nothing alike but they all possess that affordable (ish) British quirkiness. The older Morgans just seemed a little eccentric
a lot of it is to do with becoming disillusioned with the current sports/supercar becoming flooded with different versions of essentially the same car, being too fast to use on public roads, and a decently spec'd 992 coming in at over £110,000
I've had a lot of very quick stuff and have got more comming but as you point out, they chance to use them is so limited they seem more and more out of kilter with modernt day motoring
Not a week goes by without there being the next big new thing that more powerful / faster than last weeks, it;s all getting a bit boring to me.
Maybe it is just getting old, I've been looking at TVRs again as I used to have them and loved them, but the Plus 6 really appeals.
Bertie I have had a similar garage to you over the years and gradually found that I couldn't really use the quick cars on anything other than dual carriageways - too wide, too quick for country lanes. Given there's either a camera, caravan or cyclist every few yards, I got very bored and de-fleeted and bought a Morgan. The first one (a traditional with the Tudor engineering) wasn't a great success, so I traded up to an Aero 4.8 +8 and am now back into motoring! A fabulous machine, quick, small and a terrific looking gentleman's hot rod.
The +6 should be a rocket and if the chassis is as good as the Aero (which it will be), it's going to be a superb car for normal fast motoring. Completely impractical and therefore quite lovely.
Expect to pay £90k with all the options, so not cheap.
I am sure that the Plus 6 will be great, and that is the way Morgan are going. Because they have to meet current safety standards, because they are expected to handle like modern cars, because they are going to be marketed worldwide from red brick neo-con sheds where bearded Chinamen in flat caps serve warm beer, because the new owners recognise quite rightly that a hand built car should be sold around £90k not around £35k.
However, what it won’t be is a 1930’s British sports cars built today. It will be a modern car pretending to be a 1930’s British sports car. And that is what most people want.
If you want a ‘real’ Morgan, I would suggest buying a 4/4, Plus 4 or Roadster right now, because they won’t be around much longer.
However, what it won’t be is a 1930’s British sports cars built today. It will be a modern car pretending to be a 1930’s British sports car. And that is what most people want.
If you want a ‘real’ Morgan, I would suggest buying a 4/4, Plus 4 or Roadster right now, because they won’t be around much longer.
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