RE: Why Lotus won't be building an SUV - yet
Discussion
Gemaeden said:
Jellinek said:
...one would hope there is a strong on-boarding program to imbue newbies with the CABC philosophies, most importantly the designers. Otherwise you simply end up with a Lotus badged JLR or LEVC engineered vehicle.
For Chapman, lightweight was a function of his innovative approach....
That's Anthony Colin Bruce Chapman, ACBC not CABC for to whom such things matter.For Chapman, lightweight was a function of his innovative approach....
Wow, that looks great Ray!
I think these changes are positive news. IMHO the one thing that Lotus needs to do is build to a quality where the choice between Lotus and Porsche is more about performance than build quality and reliability. More people choose Porsche because they look at a Lotus and it still looks too 'hand made' to them. If you look at the inside of the S2 Exige (which is what I used to have), the rear hatch looks like chicken wire and blue tac. Now I was happy to put up with that, given the exceptional driving experience, but most people won't.
The other thing I think they should do is embrace electric. As much as us petrolheads don't want to admit it, it is the future. A lightweight all electric Elise at a decent price would be amazing. Even a hybrid with the 3 cylinder engine would be great. If they want to stand for innovation, then this is the way forward.
Lastly, they need to focus on price. When I bought my Exige, it was a toss up between that, an Impreza, and an Evo, all were around the same price. Once you get to £50K+ the options are much different, £100K+ different again. The entry level car needs to be cheap enough to be a toy, like the original Elise was.
I think these changes are positive news. IMHO the one thing that Lotus needs to do is build to a quality where the choice between Lotus and Porsche is more about performance than build quality and reliability. More people choose Porsche because they look at a Lotus and it still looks too 'hand made' to them. If you look at the inside of the S2 Exige (which is what I used to have), the rear hatch looks like chicken wire and blue tac. Now I was happy to put up with that, given the exceptional driving experience, but most people won't.
The other thing I think they should do is embrace electric. As much as us petrolheads don't want to admit it, it is the future. A lightweight all electric Elise at a decent price would be amazing. Even a hybrid with the 3 cylinder engine would be great. If they want to stand for innovation, then this is the way forward.
Lastly, they need to focus on price. When I bought my Exige, it was a toss up between that, an Impreza, and an Evo, all were around the same price. Once you get to £50K+ the options are much different, £100K+ different again. The entry level car needs to be cheap enough to be a toy, like the original Elise was.
encouraging signs from new boss. we can hopefully look forward to an Elise still below 900kg and a new model to replace Evora at around 1100kg. Alpine have shown the way.
i'm sure the halo car will be much bigger, heavier, faster and very expensive, but as long as the b road blasters continue i'm happy.
i'm sure the halo car will be much bigger, heavier, faster and very expensive, but as long as the b road blasters continue i'm happy.
Bob_Defly said:
Wow, that looks great Ray!
I think these changes are positive news. IMHO the one thing that Lotus needs to do is build to a quality where the choice between Lotus and Porsche is more about performance than build quality and reliability. More people choose Porsche because they look at a Lotus and it still looks too 'hand made' to them. If you look at the inside of the S2 Exige (which is what I used to have), the rear hatch looks like chicken wire and blue tac. Now I was happy to put up with that, given the exceptional driving experience, but most people won't.
The other thing I think they should do is embrace electric. As much as us petrolheads don't want to admit it, it is the future. A lightweight all electric Elise at a decent price would be amazing. Even a hybrid with the 3 cylinder engine would be great. If they want to stand for innovation, then this is the way forward.
Lastly, they need to focus on price. When I bought my Exige, it was a toss up between that, an Impreza, and an Evo, all were around the same price. Once you get to £50K+ the options are much different, £100K+ different again. The entry level car needs to be cheap enough to be a toy, like the original Elise was.
He loves it Bob, he only got it October time so is looking forward to the better weather.I think these changes are positive news. IMHO the one thing that Lotus needs to do is build to a quality where the choice between Lotus and Porsche is more about performance than build quality and reliability. More people choose Porsche because they look at a Lotus and it still looks too 'hand made' to them. If you look at the inside of the S2 Exige (which is what I used to have), the rear hatch looks like chicken wire and blue tac. Now I was happy to put up with that, given the exceptional driving experience, but most people won't.
The other thing I think they should do is embrace electric. As much as us petrolheads don't want to admit it, it is the future. A lightweight all electric Elise at a decent price would be amazing. Even a hybrid with the 3 cylinder engine would be great. If they want to stand for innovation, then this is the way forward.
Lastly, they need to focus on price. When I bought my Exige, it was a toss up between that, an Impreza, and an Evo, all were around the same price. Once you get to £50K+ the options are much different, £100K+ different again. The entry level car needs to be cheap enough to be a toy, like the original Elise was.
those here who mention "electric" are on to something, aren't you
I mean: everybody else will eventually do the same
so right now... if we take a broad view of the segment, all brands are more or less at the same starting point
an inflection point, if you will
could be the ideal way for Lotus to trot out front
if there's any segment that can benefit from the know-how to "add lightness" -- surely it's the battery-electric vehicle
I mean: everybody else will eventually do the same
so right now... if we take a broad view of the segment, all brands are more or less at the same starting point
an inflection point, if you will
could be the ideal way for Lotus to trot out front
if there's any segment that can benefit from the know-how to "add lightness" -- surely it's the battery-electric vehicle
CABC said:
Encouraging signs from new boss.
Agree! Surprised (but happy) they are not looking at taking the whole line-up even more upmarket. Long live the Elise 
.Also think it's good they realized it is not time for a SUV yet. That would need to be at least as good as any Porsche / Volvo / Audi to have a chance to succeed. The only way to achieve that right now would be to badge engineer a Volvo. Which is something the bean counters probably would have liked a lot. But somehow they managed to resist. Good.
Bob_Defly said:
Wow, that looks great Ray!
I think these changes are positive news. IMHO the one thing that Lotus needs to do is build to a quality where the choice between Lotus and Porsche is more about performance than build quality and reliability. More people choose Porsche because they look at a Lotus and it still looks too 'hand made' to them. If you look at the inside of the S2 Exige (which is what I used to have), the rear hatch looks like chicken wire and blue tac. Now I was happy to put up with that, given the exceptional driving experience, but most people won't.
The other thing I think they should do is embrace electric. As much as us petrolheads don't want to admit it, it is the future. A lightweight all electric Elise at a decent price would be amazing. Even a hybrid with the 3 cylinder engine would be great. If they want to stand for innovation, then this is the way forward.
Lastly, they need to focus on price. When I bought my Exige, it was a toss up between that, an Impreza, and an Evo, all were around the same price. Once you get to £50K+ the options are much different, £100K+ different again. The entry level car needs to be cheap enough to be a toy, like the original Elise was.
I agree with this almost entirely. It's all very well bemoaning the loss of n/a v6s and v8s but it's the way of the world, and world emission laws now.I think these changes are positive news. IMHO the one thing that Lotus needs to do is build to a quality where the choice between Lotus and Porsche is more about performance than build quality and reliability. More people choose Porsche because they look at a Lotus and it still looks too 'hand made' to them. If you look at the inside of the S2 Exige (which is what I used to have), the rear hatch looks like chicken wire and blue tac. Now I was happy to put up with that, given the exceptional driving experience, but most people won't.
The other thing I think they should do is embrace electric. As much as us petrolheads don't want to admit it, it is the future. A lightweight all electric Elise at a decent price would be amazing. Even a hybrid with the 3 cylinder engine would be great. If they want to stand for innovation, then this is the way forward.
Lastly, they need to focus on price. When I bought my Exige, it was a toss up between that, an Impreza, and an Evo, all were around the same price. Once you get to £50K+ the options are much different, £100K+ different again. The entry level car needs to be cheap enough to be a toy, like the original Elise was.
kambites said:
Personally I'd like to see them skip the Volvo lumps and go electric final drive with the new generation of cars. Possibly with a compact range extender, possibly full BEV depending on what lets them keep the weight donw to a reasonable level without having a stupidly small range.
Yeah, would be good to be able to retrofit that system into older Elise too. Good way of future proofing them too. Seems like every other manufacturer is building an SUV now anyway. Jaguar’s latest one looks like a cheaper but just as good version of the RRSport according to this guy: https://youtu.be/YTPyftXIUNo
I also agree with Bob.
The biggest thing hurting Lotus in terms of sales imo must be the build quality. After coming from Japanese cars that just work flawlessly, my Lotus has had more issues than any other car I've owned. Thankfully none major, but it's (relatively) expensive, very inconvenient as there is no longer a Lotus Dealer in the country, and annoying. It would also make the car terrible to impossible as a daily driver.
This is all due to low volume and hand made build and lack of resources, so it does have its charm, but most car buyers wouldn't put up with it.
The cars themselves are the best sports cars in the world by a mile, things like price point comparable Porsche's don't even come close. So there is no need to change any focus in the design or direction, just build better quality cars and they will sell more.
I say 'just', but obviously it's not simple. It is a huge job, manufacturing processes, QA, after sales support, dealers, parts availability from third party suppliers are all issues.
Also i think this must be a great opportunity to embrace electric power. I'm personally not looking forward to it from a driving fun point of view, but it's inevitable, so get on to it.
Also an SUV. That depends on how badly they want to increase volume. I would never buy it but lots of people do buy the stupid things, and it wouldn't bother me if they made one. But if Geely have all this money to throw around, surely re-building the brand is a better long term investment that trying to sell a few SUVs anyway?
The biggest thing hurting Lotus in terms of sales imo must be the build quality. After coming from Japanese cars that just work flawlessly, my Lotus has had more issues than any other car I've owned. Thankfully none major, but it's (relatively) expensive, very inconvenient as there is no longer a Lotus Dealer in the country, and annoying. It would also make the car terrible to impossible as a daily driver.
This is all due to low volume and hand made build and lack of resources, so it does have its charm, but most car buyers wouldn't put up with it.
The cars themselves are the best sports cars in the world by a mile, things like price point comparable Porsche's don't even come close. So there is no need to change any focus in the design or direction, just build better quality cars and they will sell more.
I say 'just', but obviously it's not simple. It is a huge job, manufacturing processes, QA, after sales support, dealers, parts availability from third party suppliers are all issues.
Also i think this must be a great opportunity to embrace electric power. I'm personally not looking forward to it from a driving fun point of view, but it's inevitable, so get on to it.
Also an SUV. That depends on how badly they want to increase volume. I would never buy it but lots of people do buy the stupid things, and it wouldn't bother me if they made one. But if Geely have all this money to throw around, surely re-building the brand is a better long term investment that trying to sell a few SUVs anyway?
unsprung said:
if there's any segment that can benefit from the know-how to "add lightness" -- surely it's the battery-electric vehicle
While this is certainly true, it’s not something that is within Lotus’s capabilities. Making EV powertrains lighter is pretty much all about the batteries, and that’s not easily done (you’re effectively very constrained by the laws of physics), and certainly not something Lotus has any experience in.As an example, the Tesla Model 3 has about 480kgs of batteries I believe. Even if you could somehow do with only half of these, you’re still hugely increasing the weight of an Elise.
hufggfg said:
unsprung said:
if there's any segment that can benefit from the know-how to "add lightness" -- surely it's the battery-electric vehicle
While this is certainly true, it’s not something that is within Lotus’s capabilities. Making EV powertrains lighter is pretty much all about the batteries, and that’s not easily done (you’re effectively very constrained by the laws of physics), and certainly not something Lotus has any experience in.As an example, the Tesla Model 3 has about 480kgs of batteries I believe. Even if you could somehow do with only half of these, you’re still hugely increasing the weight of an Elise.
One can begin with a worldview that is resolute about smaller and lighter -- with less mass to propel or rotate. This is not about being lighter than the lightest ICE sports car. It is about being lighter or more nimble than other sports cars that are transitioning away from ICEs.
This vehicle may or may not be a hybrid. Furthermore, a sports car not intended as one's sole transportation can afford to make compromises with some attributes so as to deliver on others.
The ironic turn of phrase "to add lightness" is not only steeped in Lotus lore, it is an engineering challenge of any manufacturer of BEV / hybrid vehicle platforms. How fortunate then for Lotus.
In my previous post, I wondered if I should state the obvious: Surely no one can believe that Lotus -- whilst lagging in a number of fundamental business functions and whilst requiring capital and more from Geely / Volvo -- is now miraculously able to conceive BEV powertrains beyond those of the most advanced OEMs of our time.
"Surely, this is obvious," I thought.
unsprung said:
In my previous post, I wondered if I should state the obvious: Surely no one can believe that Lotus -- whilst lagging in a number of fundamental business functions and whilst requiring capital and more from Geely / Volvo -- is now miraculously able to conceive BEV powertrains beyond those of the most advanced OEMs of our time.
Well, Lotus Engineering have been consultants with other manufacturers about EVs in the past and are now partnered with Williams Advanced Engineering to collaborate on advanced propulsion technologies, so it's not inconceivable that they're up to speed on such things.Cold said:
unsprung said:
In my previous post, I wondered if I should state the obvious: Surely no one can believe that Lotus -- whilst lagging in a number of fundamental business functions and whilst requiring capital and more from Geely / Volvo -- is now miraculously able to conceive BEV powertrains beyond those of the most advanced OEMs of our time.
Well, Lotus Engineering have been consultants with other manufacturers about EVs in the past and are now partnered with Williams Advanced Engineering to collaborate on advanced propulsion technologies, so it's not inconceivable that they're up to speed on such things.your comment is rather beside the point -- as nobody is arguing that Lotus can't produce or source contemporary EV powertrains
Cold said:
unsprung said:
"up to speed" is fine
your comment is rather beside the point -- as nobody is arguing that Lotus can't produce or source contemporary EV powertrains
I'm not sure I understand the point you're raising. your comment is rather beside the point -- as nobody is arguing that Lotus can't produce or source contemporary EV powertrains
my original point was that Lotus may find success in engineering a total package which manages to minimise, if not overcome, some of the issues with mass that are typical of EVs
hufggfg replied that this is "not something that is within Lotus’s capabilities" and that this objective is unachievable because "you're effectively very constrained by the laws of physics."
this argument, I believe, is false because: In making a class-leading post-ICE sports car, Lotus are not restricted to faffing about with the EV powertrain. Their chosen car can be a unique bundle of attributes, capabilities, measurements, and so on. Just one example: Not much of a boot? Not a problem. For the majority of buyers, this post-ICE sports car will not be an everyday driver.
hufggfg also noted that EV Elise would weigh more than today's ICE-powered Elise; this is, I would have thought, obvious to anybody on this thread; it also misses the inflection point -- the historic opportunity: to lead among sports cars that are transitioning away from ICE
you added that Lotus has significant experience in EV development and, therefore, are probably "up to speed" with the specification and build out of contemporary EV powertains; that's good news; I don't see yet any disagreement with that
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