RE: New Porsche Taycan details teased

[Burnham]

B17NNS said:

If it looks anything like this I think it’s fair to call it a dogs breakfast.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

[thiscocks]

Please tell me the fake exhausts are some form of joke which won't make production?

[Ryder35]

thiscocks said:

Please tell me the fake exhausts are some form of joke which won't make production?

Can't believe you are actually serious? Of course they won't!

[RacerMike]

ntiz said:

Maldini35 said:

RacerMike said:

ntiz said:

It’s not so bad on the autobahn because maintaining a high speed doesn’t require full power although does start to limit you a little bit above 110 mph but not hugely. It’s the big drop in range at those speeds Porsche will be wanting to address. At 100 mph you are talking maybe 120 miles depending on conditions in a Tesla unless they have improved hugely since I got mine which seems unlikely. There is a reason most Tesla on the motorway are going a little under the speed limit.

It’s when you are accelerating hard repeatedly like down a good country with short blasts full throttle up to maybe 90 then down then back up again makes it limit you very quickly. Can’t imagine Porsche customers being super impressed with that. I know I’m not.

Not entirely true. Inverters don’t like sustained high rpm as the pole switching for the stator causes it to get pretty hot. The faster you go, the faster it needs to switch poles, so good cooling is important.....and surprisingly difficult. Because the windings are so tight, it’s really hard to get the heat out of them.

Genuinely interesting that - thanks

I have learnt something new today. I really don’t pretend to understand the technology. I can only offer my observations from 3.5 years of ownership.

I do wonder how they can solve these issues beyond better aerodynamics and better battery density?

It’s not really related to anything like power or current. The thing is, we’re all used to the basics of how ICE engines work and it’s hard not to apply the same logic and understanding to a BEV, when the reality is that it’s a different set of problems.

All the temperatures involved are a lot lower. Batteries work best around 40-50deg C, inverter electronics are getting ‘hot’ around 60deg and anything below 20 deg is uncomfortably cold. The likely improvements coming will be solid state batteries and full immersion cooling (sitting the whole stator in non conducting oil for instance), but because the temperature delta is so small compared to an ICE, simply throwing more of things at the problem isn’t as effective as it once was. So fitting a bigger radiator to a Tesla will do literally nothing. The whole cooling system design philosophy has to be considered which is why they switched from series to parallel cooling in the Model 3.

[Kolbenkopp]

Burnham said:

B17NNS said:

If it looks anything like this I think it’s fair to call it a dogs breakfast.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

The thing is still very much in camo. I've seen another mule up close at a service station south of Stuttgart last fall. The Porsche team wasn't shy when testing and had no probs letting people near the car to take pictures. Up close something for the badly modded cars thread.

No chance it will look anywhere close in production to what was depicted here.

[Burnham]

See, that just looks like a perfect size to me.

[RDMcG]

Burnham said:

B17NNS said:

If it looks anything like this I think it’s fair to call it a dogs breakfast.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

Looks like a great grandchild of a Voisin to me....

[Talksteer]

RacerMike said:

ntiz said:

Maldini35 said:

RacerMike said:

ntiz said:

It’s not so bad on the autobahn because maintaining a high speed doesn’t require full power although does start to limit you a little bit above 110 mph but not hugely. It’s the big drop in range at those speeds Porsche will be wanting to address. At 100 mph you are talking maybe 120 miles depending on conditions in a Tesla unless they have improved hugely since I got mine which seems unlikely. There is a reason most Tesla on the motorway are going a little under the speed limit.

It’s when you are accelerating hard repeatedly like down a good country with short blasts full throttle up to maybe 90 then down then back up again makes it limit you very quickly. Can’t imagine Porsche customers being super impressed with that. I know I’m not.

Not entirely true. Inverters don’t like sustained high rpm as the pole switching for the stator causes it to get pretty hot. The faster you go, the faster it needs to switch poles, so good cooling is important.....and surprisingly difficult. Because the windings are so tight, it’s really hard to get the heat out of them.

Genuinely interesting that - thanks

I have learnt something new today. I really don’t pretend to understand the technology. I can only offer my observations from 3.5 years of ownership.

I do wonder how they can solve these issues beyond better aerodynamics and better battery density?

It’s not really related to anything like power or current. The thing is, we’re all used to the basics of how ICE engines work and it’s hard not to apply the same logic and understanding to a BEV, when the reality is that it’s a different set of problems.

All the temperatures involved are a lot lower. Batteries work best around 40-50deg C, inverter electronics are getting ‘hot’ around 60deg and anything below 20 deg is uncomfortably cold. The likely improvements coming will be solid state batteries and full immersion cooling (sitting the whole stator in non conducting oil for instance), but because the temperature delta is so small compared to an ICE, simply throwing more of things at the problem isn’t as effective as it once was. So fitting a bigger radiator to a Tesla will do literally nothing. The whole cooling system design philosophy has to be considered which is why they switched from series to parallel cooling in the Model 3.

Should add that people are now taking Model 3's on track days without any issue.

The issue for Porsche is that the Model S/X is not really the bench mark, the Model 3 Performance is as quick as the Taycan and with the right tyres is also very quick around a circuit.

I suspect that the Tesla Roadster II with its 800 bhp and 200KWh battery is probably sharing its underpinnings with the S replacement which is going to crush the Taycan in 2021.

[Kolbenkopp]

RDMcG said:

Looks like a great grandchild of a Voisin to me....

I was not expecting that at all. Good catch .

[Dafuq]

Pretty sure it's been mentioned previously somewhere but....,

'This car has a very particular set of skills etc etc'

Joking aside, will probably be top of the list to be 'Taycan' by your local friendly laptop wielding scallys some time soon.

[Piginapoke]

RobDickinson said:

Yep electric drive experience..

What a machine.

I think the prototype was electric drive (still with a diesel engine), but it was not adopted for production?

[RobDickinson]

Piginapoke said:

What a machine.

I think the prototype was electric drive (still with a diesel engine), but it was not adopted for production?

Yep lost out because too expensive and complicated lol

[ntiz]

Talksteer said:

RacerMike said:

ntiz said:

Maldini35 said:

RacerMike said:

ntiz said:

It’s not so bad on the autobahn because maintaining a high speed doesn’t require full power although does start to limit you a little bit above 110 mph but not hugely. It’s the big drop in range at those speeds Porsche will be wanting to address. At 100 mph you are talking maybe 120 miles depending on conditions in a Tesla unless they have improved hugely since I got mine which seems unlikely. There is a reason most Tesla on the motorway are going a little under the speed limit.

It’s when you are accelerating hard repeatedly like down a good country with short blasts full throttle up to maybe 90 then down then back up again makes it limit you very quickly. Can’t imagine Porsche customers being super impressed with that. I know I’m not.

Not entirely true. Inverters don’t like sustained high rpm as the pole switching for the stator causes it to get pretty hot. The faster you go, the faster it needs to switch poles, so good cooling is important.....and surprisingly difficult. Because the windings are so tight, it’s really hard to get the heat out of them.

Genuinely interesting that - thanks

I have learnt something new today. I really don’t pretend to understand the technology. I can only offer my observations from 3.5 years of ownership.

I do wonder how they can solve these issues beyond better aerodynamics and better battery density?

It’s not really related to anything like power or current. The thing is, we’re all used to the basics of how ICE engines work and it’s hard not to apply the same logic and understanding to a BEV, when the reality is that it’s a different set of problems.

All the temperatures involved are a lot lower. Batteries work best around 40-50deg C, inverter electronics are getting ‘hot’ around 60deg and anything below 20 deg is uncomfortably cold. The likely improvements coming will be solid state batteries and full immersion cooling (sitting the whole stator in non conducting oil for instance), but because the temperature delta is so small compared to an ICE, simply throwing more of things at the problem isn’t as effective as it once was. So fitting a bigger radiator to a Tesla will do literally nothing. The whole cooling system design philosophy has to be considered which is why they switched from series to parallel cooling in the Model 3.

Should add that people are now taking Model 3's on track days without any issue.

The issue for Porsche is that the Model S/X is not really the bench mark, the Model 3 Performance is as quick as the Taycan and with the right tyres is also very quick around a circuit.

I suspect that the Tesla Roadster II with its 800 bhp and 200KWh battery is probably sharing its underpinnings with the S replacement which is going to crush the Taycan in 2021.

I thought the roadster didn’t have any battery details yet? Last I heard Elon had admitted the battery tech doesn’t actually exist yet to build it. Lots of rumour from fanboys but no concrete evidence? On usual Tesla time won’t be seeing it until 2025 if we are lucky. Can’t see new Model S before then either. I have to by cynical about the 200 kw battery because there has been a 15kw rise in captivity since the First Tesla all of a sudden it is going to double in 2-3 years sounds like bold claim no?

Personally I would be very cynical of anyone who claims they take there model 3 on track. But would be very happy to hear they solved the problem if they have been. Unfortunately I have heard a lot of big claims from owners over the years that turn out to be less than truthful.

[jason61c]

I don't get the tesla fanboys. They're not a luxury car, they're the first of the new Gen EV's, however built like American cars are.

[RobDickinson]

jason61c said:

I don't get the tesla fanboys. They're not a luxury car, they're the first of the new Gen EV's, however built like American cars are.

Please give us a concrete definition of luxury car.

[ntiz]

RobDickinson said:

jason61c said:

I don't get the tesla fanboys. They're not a luxury car, they're the first of the new Gen EV's, however built like American cars are.

Please give us a concrete definition of luxury car.

A car that panels line up, door cards don’t fall off, handles don’t fail and infotainment system doesn’t crash every couple of days?

Just off the top of my head.

My secretary has a Kia outside. It’s better built than my Tesla. I would argue the first step to luxury is putting it together properly preferably out of high quality materials.

[RacerMike]

ntiz said:

I thought the roadster didn’t have any battery details yet? Last I heard Elon had admitted the battery tech doesn’t actually exist yet to build it. Lots of rumour from fanboys but no concrete evidence? On usual Tesla time won’t be seeing it until 2025 if we are lucky. Can’t see new Model S before then either. I have to by cynical about the 200 kw battery because there has been a 15kw rise in captivity since the First Tesla all of a sudden it is going to double in 2-3 years sounds like bold claim no?

Personally I would be very cynical of anyone who claims they take there model 3 on track. But would be very happy to hear they solved the problem if they have been. Unfortunately I have heard a lot of big claims from owners over the years that turn out to be less than truthful.

I’ve heard from a few people in the industry that there isn’t even a project for the Roadster yet. That’s to say that no one has done any actual engineering at all for it and currently there aren’t any plans to do any on it.

I’m sure that powertrain wise they can build something, but I don’t think even the suspension or chassis concept has been thought about. But then I think it’s fairly common knowledge that Elon uses deposits to keep the business soluble, and the owners don’t seem to mind this!

I suspect it will be at least 2023/24 before we see a Roadster.

[RobDickinson]

ntiz said:

A car that panels line up, door cards don’t fall off, handles don’t fail and infotainment system doesn’t crash every couple of days?

Just off the top of my head.

My secretary has a Kia outside. It’s better built than my Tesla. I would argue the first step to luxury is putting it together properly preferably out of high quality materials.

Literally every 996 outside of the turbo will lunch its engine, BMW has just had yet another recall over 1.6m cars at fire risk etc.. Lol.

[toppstuff]

jason61c said:

I don't get the tesla fanboys. They're not a luxury car, they're the first of the new Gen EV's, however built like American cars are.

Then you have obviously never driven a Tesla.

Nor have any real experience of American cars, come to that.

I have experience of both. You are talking bobbins.

[jason61c]

RobDickinson said:

Please give us a concrete definition of luxury car.

A 60k car thats got the build quality of a 100k car.
A 20k car thats got the build quality of a 20k car.
A 100k car thats got the build quality of a 100k car.

Not a 50-100k car thats got the build quality of a 20k car.