RE: Defender at the Nurburgring!
Discussion
Bill said:
How many new Defender owners will push that hard off road??
I can’t give you a number. But I’m willing to bet probably a great many more than you think. Eg
https://youtu.be/x9sEst8yszs
Note the age of the vid and the vehicles.
300, none of those are Defenders, which rather proves the point we're making. Those people will be all over the new Defender, because it will be perfectly capable despite the lack of ladder chassis and solid axles. (How many of them bought new is another question.)
You're still in the second stage of grief. It's time to move on.
I hope the Bombardier comes to fruition for you.
You're still in the second stage of grief. It's time to move on.
I hope the Bombardier comes to fruition for you.
Bill said:
300, none of those are Defenders, which rather proves the point we're making. Those people will be all over the new Defender, because it will be perfectly capable despite the lack of ladder chassis and solid axles. (How many of them bought new is another question.)
You're still in the second stage of grief. It's time to move on.
I hope the Bombardier comes to fruition for you.
Hang on. You asked one question. Got an answer and then moved the goal posts. You asked how many will take such a vehicle off roading. You're still in the second stage of grief. It's time to move on.
I hope the Bombardier comes to fruition for you.
The Defender has never really been offered in the USA (very limited numbers). So, no you won’t find many pics of them off road over there. But you will find pics and vids of other new LR models. And likewise in Australia and even parts of Asia.
The UK is arguably the least likely to see such vehicles off road. But we really don’t have the same open terrain and ease of access to it. Meaning those that do go off roading are generally a bit more dedicated and will often buy a vehicle specially for it. Rather than using their main vehicle, simply because they can.
Will “these” people in the vids buy a soft Defender? Possibly. But only because they didn’t buy a Discovery or Range Rover.
And besides. Where is the issue in making a vehicle like the Defender even more capable? And for off roading, more capable would mean not building purely as a Re hashed Disco 4.
300bhp/ton said:
Hang on. You asked one question. Got an answer and then moved the goal posts. You asked how many will take such a vehicle off roading.
No I didn't. I asked how many owners of new Defenders will push that hard off road.And you answered "some"...
And some will, but why would LR (Who, let me remind you, are in the business of selling new cars...) compromise their product for a tiny minority of buyers.
I think your issue is that your concept of ‘more capable’ is at odds with that of the Western world.
The new Defender will be infinitely more capable than the old. It will be more capable at being used in the public highway, it will be more capable of protecting its occupants, it will be more capable at being comfortable, will be more capable at getting consumers across the typical off-road conditions that the majority of consumers come across and of huge importance it will be more capable of being sold in the two most important markets on the planet, the US because it will meet legal requirements unlike the old Defender and in China where the new consumers are repelled by any goods that remind them of their recent peasant farmer roots.
And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
It’s a win win, best of both worlds for everyone and the company.
The new Defender will be infinitely more capable than the old. It will be more capable at being used in the public highway, it will be more capable of protecting its occupants, it will be more capable at being comfortable, will be more capable at getting consumers across the typical off-road conditions that the majority of consumers come across and of huge importance it will be more capable of being sold in the two most important markets on the planet, the US because it will meet legal requirements unlike the old Defender and in China where the new consumers are repelled by any goods that remind them of their recent peasant farmer roots.
And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
It’s a win win, best of both worlds for everyone and the company.
I think your issue is that your concept of ‘more capable’ is at odds with that of the Western world.
The new Defender will be infinitely more capable than the old. It will be more capable at being used in the public highway, it will be more capable of protecting its occupants, it will be more capable at being comfortable, will be more capable at getting consumers across the typical off-road conditions that the majority of consumers come across and of huge importance it will be more capable of being sold in the two most important markets on the planet, the US because it will meet legal requirements unlike the old Defender and in China where the new consumers are repelled by any goods that remind them of their recent peasant farmer roots.
And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
It’s a win win, best of both worlds for everyone and the company.
The new Defender will be infinitely more capable than the old. It will be more capable at being used in the public highway, it will be more capable of protecting its occupants, it will be more capable at being comfortable, will be more capable at getting consumers across the typical off-road conditions that the majority of consumers come across and of huge importance it will be more capable of being sold in the two most important markets on the planet, the US because it will meet legal requirements unlike the old Defender and in China where the new consumers are repelled by any goods that remind them of their recent peasant farmer roots.
And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
It’s a win win, best of both worlds for everyone and the company.
DonkeyApple said:
I
And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
I will argue that the new Defender will be so inferior, that prices of the old model will continue to climb.And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
It's aimed at a totally different market, hence strong demand for the old model will continue.
Nobody has a problem with the comfort levels in the range rover classic, essentially a defender underneath. There is no reason Land Rover could not improve the current design to meet modern ergonomic and safety demands while retaining true off-road ability.
Edited by skyrover on Saturday 30th March 14:22
skyrover said:
DonkeyApple said:
I
And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
I will argue that the new Defender will be so inferior, that prices of the old model will continue to climb.And what is more is that it won’t have the slightest impact on all the thousands of old Defenders out there that are cheap to buy and maintain and simply more appropriate for the extreme off-road market. If anything it will assist that market as it will take away some of the consumer demand that has pushed up the prices of old Defenders.
It's aimed at a totally different market, hence strong demand for the old model will continue.
Nobody has a problem with the comfort levels in the range rover classic, essentially a defender underneath. There is no reason Land Rover could not improve the current design to meet modern ergonomic and safety demands while retaining true off-road ability.
Edited by skyrover on Saturday 30th March 14:22
I don’t know who you think was buying Defenders once the Government stopped forcing sales but it wasn’t this mythical British off-road technician. It was blokes like me living in central London and other blokes like me running lifestyle businesses.
No one needs this ‘true’ off-road ability. We all live where there are roads and when we go off-road it’s just basic stuff which a modern Rangie actually does better than any of the old stuff because it’s electronics are so good that you don’t need to be a specialist to get the most out of it.
I have been for a drive in the dales today, I made a note of how many defenders/jap pickups I saw.
it was about 50/50 the "poor" farmers love the defender as it lasts, as well as holding its value.
spoke to one old lad in a 51 reg 90, he cant wait for the new one to come out as his is "getting on now"
it was about 50/50 the "poor" farmers love the defender as it lasts, as well as holding its value.
spoke to one old lad in a 51 reg 90, he cant wait for the new one to come out as his is "getting on now"
skyrover said:
...
Nobody has a problem with the comfort levels in the range rover classic, essentially a defender underneath. ...
You are wrong. The 90/110, later re-badged as the Defender, are essentially a Range Rover underneath. The coil spring Range Rover was launched in 1970, the coil sprung 90 in 1983 (13 years later) and the coil sprung 110 in 1984 (14 years later).Nobody has a problem with the comfort levels in the range rover classic, essentially a defender underneath. ...
Edited by skyrover on Saturday 30th March 14:22
There was zero product development of either the Land Rover or the Range Rover for the five years between 1973 and 1978. It needed the formation of Land Rover as a separate business entity in 1978 to change that. Time was of the essence as markets were in free fall, cash was tight and, as has been pointed out, engineering resources were tight. Still it survived the crisis, launching the 4 door RR, created the luxury 4x4 market, launched the 90 and 110, launched RR in the USA, and closed some dozen smaller factories to consolidate manufacturing on Solihull. Development started on what became the Discovery and the TDI engine. These actions provided the foundations for the future evolution of the business which was later amplified by the capital injections provided by BMW and Ford ownership. Tata then got a bargain buy for £1.5 billion.
soxboy said:
Good find lol.Nailed it.
loafer123 said:
B17NNS said:
I am a Jeep fan. I have one as my main car now, and had a lifted XJ for a few years.Despite this, I have to break it to you that only Stevie Wonder would think that Gladiator looks good.
loafer123 said:
B17NNS said:
I am a Jeep fan. I have one as my main car now, and had a lifted XJ for a few years.Despite this, I have to break it to you that only Stevie Wonder would think that Gladiator looks good.
The normal Wrangler starts at £45k but these ones are going to be sold for £15k with a £25k cash back or a BOGOF deal. Apparently for the millions of farmers they will also be throwing in a pair of leather butless chaps with added knee protection and a natty hat.
There is so much laughable wrong with the logic in this thread from a select few posters 
Its going to be rubbish because it wont be credible offroad? It's going to be rubbish because it has to many electrics, its going to be rubbish because its too complicated? Update old defender and job done!? HAHAHA, no.
Fuel Economy, Emissions, 5 Star NCAP, Comfort, Features/Toys are all what sell vehicles. Common underpinnings/Architectures and part bin utilisation enables it to be done for maximum profit. NO WHERE does an ''old defender slightly modernised, sold cheaply'' make use of any of that. JLR can't & won't do it......
You re-use the materials from a Disco/RR to enable selling it at £20k and you devalue those products.
You create/re-use old-design ''new'' ones and you spend a fortune on limited production runs.
You 'simplify it' and sell it with 3 star NCAP and 200g+ emissions and you trash the companies average emissions and devalue the brand.
You try & do it anyway, and you then have more complexity in your vehicle line up and it all ends up costing you ££££.
Finally, the worse seller for an OEM is a base spec car - because the money is in the optional extras. The more premium, the more you can add-on, the more money you make. Jeep et all get away with it because they have cheap & cheerful reputations, and can churn them out quicker then Burgers at Mcdonalds. JLR dont have that level of sheer market mass, and they can rely purely on the Amurikan Market to still lap it up to make it financially viable.
I have been in the Automotive industry for nearly 20 years now, love it or loath it. The next defender following the heard mentality of the Industry/JLR is the right way to go. Shake off the ''Old Defender'' mentality and re-imagine it - don't just re-engineer it.
Edit:
As for all the s
t given about it's off road Capability. Assuming the Defender will be similar underpinings to the Disco 5 (which it will), it will STILL be close to/Market Leader in generic off Road capability.....
Evo Says:
[i]''Off road [the Disco5] is a Land Rover through-and-through. It will crawl up rocks, crab down slopes knee deep in slurry and wade through a river if you so want, which means the car parks of ski resorts, gymkhanas and paddocks (of the nag and rally kind) should prove no obstacle.''
TopGear Says:
Off road, there’s quite simply no better car around today. It’s the effortlessness that’s so compelling. The Discovery will monitor what surface it’s trekking over and adjust its differentials, traction control, ride height, throttle response, gearbox mode and more to best deal with the given terrain.
Auto Express Says:
Land Rover’s Terrain Response 2 system means it is a mountain goat off the tarmac, though. You’ll know when the 900mm maximum wading depth is reached thanks to sonar tech developed from its predecessors and perfected here, while the system will automatically sense what surface you’re on and adjust the engine, gearbox, suspension and four-wheel drive to suit, so you no longer have to touch a button. On the challenging trails of the Eastnor Castle estate the Discovery proved imperious, shrugging off the different terrain and obstacles of Land Rover’s off-road experience.
etc etc etc etc etc boring.....
Its going to be rubbish because it wont be credible offroad? It's going to be rubbish because it has to many electrics, its going to be rubbish because its too complicated? Update old defender and job done!? HAHAHA, no.
Fuel Economy, Emissions, 5 Star NCAP, Comfort, Features/Toys are all what sell vehicles. Common underpinnings/Architectures and part bin utilisation enables it to be done for maximum profit. NO WHERE does an ''old defender slightly modernised, sold cheaply'' make use of any of that. JLR can't & won't do it......
You re-use the materials from a Disco/RR to enable selling it at £20k and you devalue those products.
You create/re-use old-design ''new'' ones and you spend a fortune on limited production runs.
You 'simplify it' and sell it with 3 star NCAP and 200g+ emissions and you trash the companies average emissions and devalue the brand.
You try & do it anyway, and you then have more complexity in your vehicle line up and it all ends up costing you ££££.
Finally, the worse seller for an OEM is a base spec car - because the money is in the optional extras. The more premium, the more you can add-on, the more money you make. Jeep et all get away with it because they have cheap & cheerful reputations, and can churn them out quicker then Burgers at Mcdonalds. JLR dont have that level of sheer market mass, and they can rely purely on the Amurikan Market to still lap it up to make it financially viable.
I have been in the Automotive industry for nearly 20 years now, love it or loath it. The next defender following the heard mentality of the Industry/JLR is the right way to go. Shake off the ''Old Defender'' mentality and re-imagine it - don't just re-engineer it.
Edit:
As for all the s
t given about it's off road Capability. Assuming the Defender will be similar underpinings to the Disco 5 (which it will), it will STILL be close to/Market Leader in generic off Road capability.....Evo Says:
[i]''Off road [the Disco5] is a Land Rover through-and-through. It will crawl up rocks, crab down slopes knee deep in slurry and wade through a river if you so want, which means the car parks of ski resorts, gymkhanas and paddocks (of the nag and rally kind) should prove no obstacle.''
TopGear Says:
Off road, there’s quite simply no better car around today. It’s the effortlessness that’s so compelling. The Discovery will monitor what surface it’s trekking over and adjust its differentials, traction control, ride height, throttle response, gearbox mode and more to best deal with the given terrain.
Auto Express Says:
Land Rover’s Terrain Response 2 system means it is a mountain goat off the tarmac, though. You’ll know when the 900mm maximum wading depth is reached thanks to sonar tech developed from its predecessors and perfected here, while the system will automatically sense what surface you’re on and adjust the engine, gearbox, suspension and four-wheel drive to suit, so you no longer have to touch a button. On the challenging trails of the Eastnor Castle estate the Discovery proved imperious, shrugging off the different terrain and obstacles of Land Rover’s off-road experience.
etc etc etc etc etc boring.....
Edited by Andeh1 on Tuesday 2nd April 08:59
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