RE: Defender at the Nurburgring!

RE: Defender at the Nurburgring!

Author
Discussion

Walter Sobchak

5,723 posts

223 months

Thursday 4th April 2019
quotequote all
Andeh1 said:
There is so much laughable wrong with the logic in this thread from a select few posters rolleyes

Its going to be rubbish because it wont be credible offroad? It's going to be rubbish because it has to many electrics, its going to be rubbish because its too complicated? Update old defender and job done!? HAHAHA, no.

Fuel Economy, Emissions, 5 Star NCAP, Comfort, Features/Toys are all what sell vehicles. Common underpinnings/Architectures and part bin utilisation enables it to be done for maximum profit. NO WHERE does an ''old defender slightly modernised, sold cheaply'' make use of any of that. JLR can't & won't do it......

You re-use the materials from a Disco/RR to enable selling it at £20k and you devalue those products.
You create/re-use old-design ''new'' ones and you spend a fortune on limited production runs.
You 'simplify it' and sell it with 3 star NCAP and 200g+ emissions and you trash the companies average emissions and devalue the brand.
You try & do it anyway, and you then have more complexity in your vehicle line up and it all ends up costing you ££££.

Finally, the worse seller for an OEM is a base spec car - because the money is in the optional extras. The more premium, the more you can add-on, the more money you make. Jeep et all get away with it because they have cheap & cheerful reputations, and can churn them out quicker then Burgers at Mcdonalds. JLR dont have that level of sheer market mass, and they can rely purely on the Amurikan Market to still lap it up to make it financially viable.

I have been in the Automotive industry for nearly 20 years now, love it or loath it. The next defender following the heard mentality of the Industry/JLR is the right way to go. Shake off the ''Old Defender'' mentality and re-imagine it - don't just re-engineer it.




Edit:
As for all the st given about it's off road Capability. Assuming the Defender will be similar underpinings to the Disco 5 (which it will), it will STILL be close to/Market Leader in generic off Road capability.....

Evo Says:
[i]''Off road [the Disco5] is a Land Rover through-and-through. It will crawl up rocks, crab down slopes knee deep in slurry and wade through a river if you so want, which means the car parks of ski resorts, gymkhanas and paddocks (of the nag and rally kind) should prove no obstacle.''

TopGear Says:
Off road, there’s quite simply no better car around today. It’s the effortlessness that’s so compelling. The Discovery will monitor what surface it’s trekking over and adjust its differentials, traction control, ride height, throttle response, gearbox mode and more to best deal with the given terrain.

Auto Express Says:
Land Rover’s Terrain Response 2 system means it is a mountain goat off the tarmac, though. You’ll know when the 900mm maximum wading depth is reached thanks to sonar tech developed from its predecessors and perfected here, while the system will automatically sense what surface you’re on and adjust the engine, gearbox, suspension and four-wheel drive to suit, so you no longer have to touch a button. On the challenging trails of the Eastnor Castle estate the Discovery proved imperious, shrugging off the different terrain and obstacles of Land Rover’s off-road experience.

etc etc etc etc etc boring.....


Edited by Andeh1 on Tuesday 2nd April 08:59
To be fair I really like the look of the Disco 5 (except the wonky number plate but nothing’s perfect) and am sure that it’s a very capable off roader too, the interior looks great, and very upmarket too, but if I were buying a new 4x4 I’d still buy a Landcruiser over one mainly because it’s going to hold its value a lot better and not break nearly as much or st it’s gearbox and air suspension when it gets a few miles on the clock.
I do freely admit the D5 would be the better car to drive day to day though, I expect off road there’s nothing between them capability wise, mostly comes down to tyres and driver anyway!.

Tom_Spotley_When

496 posts

156 months

Thursday 4th April 2019
quotequote all
Andeh1 said:
There is so much laughable wrong with the logic in this thread from a select few posters rolleyes

Its going to be rubbish because it wont be credible offroad? It's going to be rubbish because it has to many electrics, its going to be rubbish because its too complicated? Update old defender and job done!? HAHAHA, no.

Fuel Economy, Emissions, 5 Star NCAP, Comfort, Features/Toys are all what sell vehicles. Common underpinnings/Architectures and part bin utilisation enables it to be done for maximum profit. NO WHERE does an ''old defender slightly modernised, sold cheaply'' make use of any of that. JLR can't & won't do it......

You re-use the materials from a Disco/RR to enable selling it at £20k and you devalue those products.
You create/re-use old-design ''new'' ones and you spend a fortune on limited production runs.
You 'simplify it' and sell it with 3 star NCAP and 200g+ emissions and you trash the companies average emissions and devalue the brand.
You try & do it anyway, and you then have more complexity in your vehicle line up and it all ends up costing you ££££.

Finally, the worse seller for an OEM is a base spec car - because the money is in the optional extras. The more premium, the more you can add-on, the more money you make. Jeep et all get away with it because they have cheap & cheerful reputations, and can churn them out quicker then Burgers at Mcdonalds. JLR dont have that level of sheer market mass, and they can rely purely on the Amurikan Market to still lap it up to make it financially viable.

I have been in the Automotive industry for nearly 20 years now, love it or loath it. The next defender following the heard mentality of the Industry/JLR is the right way to go. Shake off the ''Old Defender'' mentality and re-imagine it - don't just re-engineer it.




Edit:
As for all the st given about it's off road Capability. Assuming the Defender will be similar underpinings to the Disco 5 (which it will), it will STILL be close to/Market Leader in generic off Road capability.....

Evo Says:
[i]''Off road [the Disco5] is a Land Rover through-and-through. It will crawl up rocks, crab down slopes knee deep in slurry and wade through a river if you so want, which means the car parks of ski resorts, gymkhanas and paddocks (of the nag and rally kind) should prove no obstacle.''

TopGear Says:
Off road, there’s quite simply no better car around today. It’s the effortlessness that’s so compelling. The Discovery will monitor what surface it’s trekking over and adjust its differentials, traction control, ride height, throttle response, gearbox mode and more to best deal with the given terrain.

Auto Express Says:
Land Rover’s Terrain Response 2 system means it is a mountain goat off the tarmac, though. You’ll know when the 900mm maximum wading depth is reached thanks to sonar tech developed from its predecessors and perfected here, while the system will automatically sense what surface you’re on and adjust the engine, gearbox, suspension and four-wheel drive to suit, so you no longer have to touch a button. On the challenging trails of the Eastnor Castle estate the Discovery proved imperious, shrugging off the different terrain and obstacles of Land Rover’s off-road experience.

etc etc etc etc etc boring.....


Edited by Andeh1 on Tuesday 2nd April 08:59
Trouble is, all that well thought out logic can be reduced to:

It doesn't have a ladder chassis and isn't going to be as capable as I want it to be when I buy a second-hand one in 10 years time.

It's got Electrics which will fail every time I trek across the sahara to buy milk.

Land Rover Enthusiasts like me who care so much about the brand that I've never paid them a penny, are owed a debt of gratitude because we off-road the cars and maintain their image.

This car will be bought by the wrong people and as such their brand value will plummet overnight.

Some owners in America use their car off-road and these people will feel let-down by this betrayal. They'll be forced to buy a Wrangler and Land Rover should be disappointed with this. Bonus points if this is accompanied by a not-at-all representative picture of 10 cars, which are automatically representative of the 1000's sold in America every year. Might as well post a picture of one underwater and say some people use their Discovery 5 as a Jet Ski for all the relevance it has.


skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Thursday 4th April 2019
quotequote all
Tom_Spotley_When said:
Trouble is, all that well thought out logic can be reduced to:

It doesn't have a ladder chassis and isn't going to be as capable as I want it to be when I buy a second-hand one in 10 years time.

It's got Electrics which will fail every time I trek across the sahara to buy milk.

Land Rover Enthusiasts like me who care so much about the brand that I've never paid them a penny, are owed a debt of gratitude because we off-road the cars and maintain their image.

This car will be bought by the wrong people and as such their brand value will plummet overnight.

Some owners in America use their car off-road and these people will feel let-down by this betrayal. They'll be forced to buy a Wrangler and Land Rover should be disappointed with this. Bonus points if this is accompanied by a not-at-all representative picture of 10 cars, which are automatically representative of the 1000's sold in America every year. Might as well post a picture of one underwater and say some people use their Discovery 5 as a Jet Ski for all the relevance it has.
A condescending attitude is also to the brands detriment.