Waste Dumped in Communal Bin Store - Tenant Denying Was Him

[romeogolf]

At a property I let out there is a fob-access system and CCTV in various external areas. I received an email last night from the property management company with footage of two people using an access fob to gain entry to the bin store and leave a washing machine in there along with an invoice for removing it of £264.

Neither of the people in the footage appears to be my tenant and my tenant has denied it was him or anyone known to him. Furthermore, the washing machine in the flat is provided by me, so there's no reason for him to dispose of it.

I have asked the tenant to confirm the fob-numbers of the two fobs he has and the property management company have confirmed it was one of these. Frustratingly, when speaking to the management company to confirm this, they asked first which two fobs my tenant had before giving me the fob number used - In hindsight of course I'd have asked the other way around.

The management company are not backing down and my tenant is stating that he is concerned about security if an apparent duplicate fob is being used.

I'm at a bit of a loss as to what else I can use/request to show one way or the other who was responsible, or how else to resolve this.

I have requested further usage logs of the fob for the time preceding and following the entry to the bin store on the night in question, as well as any further CCTV image of the areas where the fob was used - But if it wasn't my tenant, and he had leant the fob to a friend for example, I'm trying to discover how I would prove this.

Could anyone offer any thoughts on this?

[motco]

Has he still got the washing machine you provided? If so where would he have got the one he allegedly dumped?

[shady lee]

I can't explain how happy I was to sell my apartment, this post reminds me of the way property management companies act.

I wish you the best

[carreauchompeur]

£264???

I really do hate these property management companies with a passion, especially having lived in a city centre block and being haughtily told that I wasn’t allowed access to unload, etc. In the bollarded area. Complete disconnect from the fact that I was paying nearly £100/month for external maintenance and THEIR services.

They can’t prove it, and it seems like a strange situation. Maybe they should take you to court if they feel you’re liable?

[dci]

It's unlikely to be a duplicate fob. The duplicate fob would either need to have been created by the system administrator (management company) or depending on the system type the creator of the duplicate fob would need access the access system software, database and programming hardware. I'm not saying duplicate fobs can't be created but it would be a lot of hastle just to gain access to the landlords areas of an apartment complex.

I would say the simple answer is that if the CCTV images do not match your tennant then your Tennant has lent his fob to the perp and is now denying this in the face of a £264 invoice coming his way.

[romeogolf]

motco said:

Has he still got the washing machine you provided? If so where would he have got the one he allegedly dumped?

One theory is that he provided the fob to a friend and allowed them to dump the machine. I'm just drafting an email to the property management company along these lines:

Email said:

Could you also confirm if you have any clear images of the machine and/or could describe the make of the one removed from the store? If it was removed from my property it would match that of the machine provided at the start of the tenancy. I would be keen to see footage of the machine being carried out of the block to confirm this to be the same.

My thought process being that if it was a friend of my tenant the machine would not have been carried out of the block but would have come from a van or some other location. If it was carried out the block, and not my machine, it's a mix-up.

Edited by romeogolf on Wednesday 17th April 12:27

[romeogolf]

dci said:

I would say the simple answer is that if the CCTV images do not match your tennant then your Tennant has lent his fob to the perp and is now denying this in the face of a £264 invoice coming his way.

This is 100% my thoughts, but I'd like something to pin it on him - For example, "here's footage of a van pulling up, someone gets out, goes inside, comes back with and unloads into the bin store with your fob, then goes back inside".

[kowalski655]

Even if it was your tenant then £264 is really taking the piss! Council will take it away for a fifth of that, if not less.

[craigjm]

it sounds like your tenant knows that the fobs are numbered. If that’s the case would anyone really be stupid enough to loan their fob to someone else to facilitate fly tipping? How do you rent out the flat? Does a letting agent have a fob for instance?

[mgtony]

Has the CCTV had its clocks moved forward? Perhaps your tenant was there an hour earlier!! (ie they used the bins legitimately at say 8pm which fob shows, CCTV shows washing machine being dumped at 8pm which was actually 9pm)

[xjay1337]

carreauchompeur said:

£264???

I really do hate these property management companies with a passion, especially having lived in a city centre block and being haughtily told that I wasn’t allowed access to unload, etc. In the bollarded area. Complete disconnect from the fact that I was paying nearly £100/month for external maintenance and THEIR services.

They can’t prove it, and it seems like a strange situation. Maybe they should take you to court if they feel you’re liable?

I lived in a bunch of flats that had a property management company.
The old man there would try and get me to sign up to his self-managed scheme.
He was a bit weird and at the time I wished he would just bugger off but hearing more about it I can say that I would support him now with a bit more age and understanding!

[carreauchompeur]

xjay1337 said:

I lived in a bunch of flats that had a property management company.
The old man there would try and get me to sign up to his self-managed scheme.
He was a bit weird and at the time I wished he would just bugger off but hearing more about it I can say that I would support him now with a bit more age and understanding!

Haha yes... on small blocks, provided you get the right person, you can save a mint. Unfortunately we were trapped since it was a large block with leases, head leases and all sorts. In block costs were really reasonable, it was the external management charges which were bonkers!

[romeogolf]

Ok, draft email to property management co. I spoke to both colleagues this morning and have received a log of fob usage.

email said:

Hi G,

The log shows the fob was used both at 20:25:21 and again 14 seconds later at 20:25:35, at which time the CCTV shows two people still in the bin area. Could you explain this second entry? Secondly, as mentioned to J, the clocks did change not long ago and it is possible that either the CCTV footage or the fob log times are 1 hour out of sync causing a mix-up. Could this also be confirmed, perhaps with logs an hour before and after this incident being checked?

Do you have any clear images of the machine and/or could describe the one removed from the store? If it was removed from my property it would match that of the machine provided at the start of the tenancy. I would be keen to see footage of the machine being carried out of the block to confirm this to be the same as it does perplex me that the tenant would go to the effort of removing an appliance which would be my responsibility to replace were it to fail.

Many thanks,
R

Feedback on this welcomed before I send it...

[xjay1337]

I would probably go down the route of serial numbers of the machine etc / make / model and match against your inventory of your one in the appartment.

Don't know why the management company came straight to you.
If it's not your tenants then they (management company) need to prove it.... having a security fob is not a guarantee. Could have easily been dropped or lost etc.

Do think you made a blunder giving them the fob numbers first but you realise that so :-(

Hopefully you can get it all sorted , I would be inclined to get them to take you to court to reclaim it. It's spurious at best.

[romeogolf]

xjay1337 said:

Don't know why the management company came straight to you.
If it's not your tenants then they (management company) need to prove it.... having a security fob is not a guarantee. Could have easily been dropped or lost etc.

Not sure who else they would come to other than the landlord?

Surely if the fob was lost or dropped, it would still be my tenant's responsibility to report that for security. Even so, he still has both fobs allocated and sent me a photo of them last night to prove it as a lost fob was my initial thought, too!

[Mr Pointy]

Ask them for a print out from the key entry system for the whole day. That way you can check that it is your tenants fob & the management company aren't just saying it's the same fob number.

Has your tenant confirmed your machine is still in the apartment?

[romeogolf]

Mr Pointy said:

Ask them for a print out from the key entry system for the whole day. That way you can check that it is your tenants fob & the management company aren't just saying it's the same fob number.

Has your tenant confirmed your machine is still in the apartment?

They've given a full usage log for the fob in question from just over a week before the incident. The tenant has two fobs, but there's nothing specifically untoward on the usage and the time stamp on the CCTV matches that of the fob log below for entry to the bin store. There are 3 entries to the main block, two are fob-controlled and the third is key-only (to which the tenant has a key). I suspect he uses the key entry most days as it goes straight into the stairwell, saving a trip around the main entrance area/postboxes.



I've not asked the tenant about the machine, but at this stage suspect that if it had failed he'd have told me right away as he's been meticulous with every other repair.

[strath44]

I think surely you have to 100% ascertain the tenant has his original machine in the property and its not the one sitting there?

I think you are being pretty nice to the tenant about this one, it shows its his keyfob I think some pressure needs put on him.

Total pita, can you not just go and uplift the machine and be done with it and put in place something to stop the situation occuring again?

£264 for an uplift is ridiculous and I would be doing everything I could to avoid that!

[Nezquick]

romeogolf said:

Ok, draft email to property management co. I spoke to both colleagues this morning and have received a log of fob usage.

email said:

Hi G,

The log shows the fob was used both at 20:25:21 and again 14 seconds later at 20:25:35, at which time the CCTV shows two people still in the bin area. Could you explain this second entry? Secondly, as mentioned to J, the clocks did change not long ago and it is possible that either the CCTV footage or the fob log times are 1 hour out of sync causing a mix-up. Could this also be confirmed, perhaps with logs an hour before and after this incident being checked?

Do you have any clear images of the machine and/or could describe the one removed from the store? If it was removed from my property it would match that of the machine provided at the start of the tenancy. I would be keen to see footage of the machine being carried out of the block to confirm this to be the same as it does perplex me that the tenant would go to the effort of removing an appliance which would be my responsibility to replace were it to fail.

Many thanks,
R

Feedback on this welcomed before I send it...

I wonder if your tenant used the fob to drop off some rubbish and then as he was leaving, someone asked him if they could quickly borrow it as they'd forgotten theirs - hence the entry 14 seconds later. That may explain why someone used your tenants fob and he may have just leant it out innocently not knowing what they were going to do?

[romeogolf]

strath44 said:

I think surely you have to 100% ascertain the tenant has his original machine in the property and its not the one sitting there?

I think you are being pretty nice to the tenant about this one, it shows its his keyfob I think some pressure needs put on him.

Total pita, can you not just go and uplift the machine and be done with it and put in place something to stop the situation occuring again?

£264 for an uplift is ridiculous and I would be doing everything I could to avoid that!

I've asked the PM company to confirm the machine removed (model/type) so I can cross check with tenant's. I would rather accuse them of inaccuracy than the tenant.

The machine has already been removed, so I can't go back and change that. I'm also not sure what I can do to stop a tenant from doing such things in future, if indeed it was them.

At this point I just want some concrete evidence that it was my tenant, or 100% his fob, used to access the store and leave the appliance there.

If the PM company can show the machine being removed from the building, I can cross-check that with what's in the flat to see if it's the same and if it's not, can demonstrate it came from another property and is likely to be a mix-up in fobs. If they show it being unloaded from a van, I can more credence to accuse the tenant of lending out his fob!