RE: Litchfield BMW M2 Competition: Driven
Discussion
Slippydiff said:
with a good geo featuring less front and rear toe and a dash more camber front and rear,
How much toe did it have? Generally I find that more toe increases communication through the steering and you'd want as much as you can get away with without scrubbing the tyres. For less understeer, toe out in front and for a more mobile rear, less toe rear at the cost of stability and grip feel. But would be interested to hear your thoughts on setting up an M2...
Wills2 said:
s2racer said:
1625kg
let that number sink in.. just 200kg less than an E39 M5 with its 4.9l.v8 and heavier than an E92 M3 which is already way too heavy (i have one, its not a pocket rocket or a sports car, its a big, fat Grand Tourer..)
i'd expect this to be in the 14 hundreds
i was interested when it was launched but i'll buy something else
My e92 DCT M3 was quoted at 1655kg EU my F80 DCT M3 was quoted at 1635kg, I think the 1625kg is also an EU figure rather than DIN so the M2C is lighter abet not by much. let that number sink in.. just 200kg less than an E39 M5 with its 4.9l.v8 and heavier than an E92 M3 which is already way too heavy (i have one, its not a pocket rocket or a sports car, its a big, fat Grand Tourer..)
i'd expect this to be in the 14 hundreds
i was interested when it was launched but i'll buy something else
E92 DKG 1700kg
F80 DKG 1635kg (correct)
M2C DKG 1650kg
Weighed EU weights (AMS/Sport Auto):
E92 DKG 1730kg
F80 Comp DKG 1709kg
M2C DKG 1703kg
All very close irl and none of them anything close to lightweight.
Ref handling deficiencies of the M2.
I think the main differences in personal experience can be attributed to the kind of driving and where the car is pushed. On a relative fast and smooth surface, like most of Germany or trackdays or fast roads more south, there was not much wrong. The problems come when the road becomes more uneven, with bumps and undulations and crests and compressions all coming in rapid succession, demanding more regarding damping and suspension travel, it's there where the original M2 perhaps wasn't the best.... Or terrible, depending on expectations.
I think the main differences in personal experience can be attributed to the kind of driving and where the car is pushed. On a relative fast and smooth surface, like most of Germany or trackdays or fast roads more south, there was not much wrong. The problems come when the road becomes more uneven, with bumps and undulations and crests and compressions all coming in rapid succession, demanding more regarding damping and suspension travel, it's there where the original M2 perhaps wasn't the best.... Or terrible, depending on expectations.
Brett748 said:
Are we at a stage now where people actually care about having a cat?
£20 to the MOT tester and away we go.
If some polar bear has to get wet feet so my car/bike can sound good then so be it.
Or you being ironic or are you truly so ignorant? Polar bears won't be harmed, its so called people that suffer first hand from particles. Astma, lung cancer, stuff like that. Because it's not just soot, its a transporter to the lungs of far more dangerous toxics that aren't quantified but most certainly present in a combustion process. £20 to the MOT tester and away we go.
If some polar bear has to get wet feet so my car/bike can sound good then so be it.
The difference with diesel is that particulates in gasoline are smaller. If they are 10 times smaller, they weigh 1000 times less. So basically the emission targets expressed in weight were easy to pass. Moreover people didn't see them (SOOT WARNING = diesel) and thus not alarmed. The EURO 6 for gasolines didn't orginally have any emission limits for the number of particles. But in the amendments legislators put it at a mere...
6 x 10^11 particles/km.
That is sixhundred billion per kilometer if I am not mistaken. Or almost a ONE BILLION particles per METER driven. And gasolines without GPF would MASSIVELY exceed that. Thats a lot of invisible s
t in the air. But oh no, DIESEL is the enemy, lets all buy gasolines.... Our current car is also EU6 without GPF (2016 car). My downpipe has a EU6 compliant metal catalyser and its listed as an approved OE spare part. All good°,
but with rusty lungs and a 2 year old daughter with signs of astma, next car will be a lot cleaner again for sure. Maybe just settle with something with enough power from factory. It's not as if modern cars are lacking in that department ... Bit lighter would be nice....
° a cat delete on the other hand can increasy emissions of partly burnt fuel and the highly toxic chemicals resulting in the region of hundred fold or even more. So one decat in the name of performance can do more long term harm than hundreds of regular cars... Oh and it stinks... for a reason. It IS filthy... Trust your nose...
Edited by Onehp on Saturday 20th April 04:02
Zoon said:
Surely removing the particulate filter makes the car fall below Euro 6 standards?
I was thinking the same thing. The consensus elsewhere when discussing exhaust options for the M140 was that removing the PPF would be an MOT failure once that comes around.That must be an animal of a car though! The 140 feels pretty bloody quick to me, so this must feel properly rapid with an extra 20bhp and a better chassis.
Onehp said:
How much toe did it have? Generally I find that more toe increases communication through the steering and you'd want as much as you can get away with without scrubbing the tyres. For less understeer, toe out in front and for a more mobile rear, less toe rear at the cost of stability and grip feel.
But would be interested to hear your thoughts on setting up an M2...
It’s been over five years, so I can’t remember the exact numbers unfortunately.But would be interested to hear your thoughts on setting up an M2...
But broadly speaking, the more front toe in you have, the more stability it provides, too much and as you’ve said all the front tyres do is scrub, sapping horsepower. Additionally, increased front toe in numbs the steering on initial turn in.
Parallel front toe sharpens the turn in, but at the expense of stability, if the car sufferers from any bump steer issues, running parallel front toe will exacerbate any such issues and make the car more unstable under braking.
Excess rear toe in aids stability, but at the expense of drag. On something like a Porsche GT3, where you’re running 10-12” wide rear tyres, that’s between 20-24 inches of rubber being dragged/scrubbed across the road surface in a less than optimal direction.
I can’t remember how much additional front camber we put on the 1M, but it wasn’t huge, but it made a huge difference to the car’s turn in, and the addition of the lighter AP front calipers and discs was shocking in the way it transformed the car’s steering, roadholding and ride.
Onehp said:
Brett748 said:
Are we at a stage now where people actually care about having a cat?
£20 to the MOT tester and away we go.
If some polar bear has to get wet feet so my car/bike can sound good then so be it.
Or you being ironic or are you truly so ignorant? Polar bears won't be harmed, its so called people that suffer first hand from particles. Astma, lung cancer, stuff like that. Because it's not just soot, its a transporter to the lungs of far more dangerous toxics that aren't quantified but most certainly present in a combustion process. £20 to the MOT tester and away we go.
If some polar bear has to get wet feet so my car/bike can sound good then so be it.
The difference with diesel is that particulates in gasoline are smaller. If they are 10 times smaller, they weigh 1000 times less. So basically the emission targets expressed in weight were easy to pass. Moreover people didn't see them (SOOT WARNING = diesel) and thus not alarmed. The EURO 6 for gasolines didn't orginally have any emission limits for the number of particles. But in the amendments legislators put it at a mere...
6 x 10^11 particles/km.
That is sixhundred billion per kilometer if I am not mistaken. Or almost a ONE BILLION particles per METER driven. And gasolines without GPF would MASSIVELY exceed that. Thats a lot of invisible s
t in the air. But oh no, DIESEL is the enemy, lets all buy gasolines.... Our current car is also EU6 without GPF (2016 car). My downpipe has a EU6 compliant metal catalyser and its listed as an approved OE spare part. All good°,
but with rusty lungs and a 2 year old daughter with signs of astma, next car will be a lot cleaner again for sure. Maybe just settle with something with enough power from factory. It's not as if modern cars are lacking in that department ... Bit lighter would be nice....
° a cat delete on the other hand can increasy emissions of partly burnt fuel and the highly toxic chemicals resulting in the region of hundred fold or even more. So one decat in the name of performance can do more long term harm than hundreds of regular cars... Oh and it stinks... for a reason. It IS filthy... Trust your nose...
Edited by Onehp on Saturday 20th April 04:02
Billy_Whizzzz said:
As a fully fledged car nut, it shocks me at the ignorance of many petrol heads. Screw the planet, screw everyone else - as long as I’m ok and my car can be as noisy and polluting as I like.
What's the view like from up there?Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
xjay1337 said:
What's the view like from up there?
Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
That view is now reality, polluting the planet is now viewed in the same light as speeding and drinking and driving. Both were considered “socially acceptable” 25-30 years ago, but the passage of time (and in the case of speeding, the frequent pedalling of myth that “speed kills”) has ensured a shift in the general public’s perspective on such matters.Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
xjay1337 said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
As a fully fledged car nut, it shocks me at the ignorance of many petrol heads. Screw the planet, screw everyone else - as long as I’m ok and my car can be as noisy and polluting as I like.
What's the view like from up there?Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
Billy_Whizzzz said:
As a fully fledged car nut, it shocks me at the ignorance of many petrol heads. Screw the planet, screw everyone else - as long as I’m ok and my car can be as noisy and polluting as I like.
Curious isn't it.xjay1337 said:
What's the view like from up there?
Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
Why do you think we shouldn't all do our bit? I mean if you're happy to ignore one environmental protection, why not ignore them all? Release CFCs in the atmosphere. Why not dump neat oil down drains? Or blow smoke in the faces of babies? Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
andyeds1234 said:
Yeah, because there no middle ground between removing pollution regulating devices, and driving a Prius. Right?
Well quite. On a side note, F1 engines don't have cats. But are incredibly efficient in terms of power gained from each molecule of fuel. I guess they are probably cleaner emission-wise than road cars. Surely this is what tuners should be aiming for? Getting more power from the fuel (through whatever mods required) but keeping all the emissions devices in place.
You don't see ads for "Sport Cats" these days which I find strange
S1KRR said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
xjay1337 said:
What's the view like from up there?
Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
Why do you think we shouldn't all do our bit? I mean if you're happy to ignore one environmental protection, why not ignore them all? Release CFCs in the atmosphere. Why not dump neat oil down drains? Or blow smoke in the faces of babies? Maybe either by a Prius and shut up, or be a little less ostentatious.
Nothing we do will offset China / Russia output.
Nothing any of us do as drivers will impact the huge amount of plastic waste.
Most of the reasons for environmentalism is taxation.
Don't get it confused.
P.s plenty of sport cats are advertised and listed for sale from Cobra, wagner, bcs and Miltek to name but a few!
Edited by xjay1337 on Saturday 20th April 19:42
Billy_Whizzzz said:
As a fully fledged car nut, it shocks me at the ignorance of many petrol heads. Screw the planet, screw everyone else - as long as I’m ok and my car can be as noisy and polluting as I like.
God this site used to be great. I meen really does every single person who is honest ! Or even joking Have to be followed up with a load of copy paste rubbish no one cares about . Trust me there are far worse things than this guys decat Weekendrebuild said:
Billy_Whizzzz said:
As a fully fledged car nut, it shocks me at the ignorance of many petrol heads. Screw the planet, screw everyone else - as long as I’m ok and my car can be as noisy and polluting as I like.
God this site used to be great. I meen really does every single person who is honest ! Or even joking Have to be followed up with a load of copy paste rubbish no one cares about . Trust me there are far worse things than this guys decat Some irony that someone can say I don't give a fks about noise and emissions into the very surroundings and air we others also have to co-inhabit and breathe, and if someone points out that they don't like that, they are the bad guy? How come one cares more of what someone writes on a forum, then about stting all over our common surroundings?
Oh, and then the fantastic logic of 'I'm so small, I don't matter, look at China!
Well, if you ACTUALLY did that, you would realise China is the world leader in electric cars, electric bikes, solar cell production and also biggest producer of sustainable electricity. 2017 almost 37% of electricity production was sustainable (Solar, Wind and Hydro) in China - that's a lot. And increasing. Yes coal remains a issue, but there is much more than just coal coal coal happening there as some seem te believe...
The excuse that 'we don't have to a diddly tt because they don't do anything' doesn't hold up very well. We all, all 7 billion whatever of us, contribute for good or bad, simples.
The world is changing, if you're gonna burn fossile fuel, better enjoy it is my motto. All those commuters sitting in a traffic jam in a single car is just pure waste of good fuel, and has little or nothing to do with car and driving enthusiasts... If we can find ways to do things more effectively and more cleanly and the old way only gives us headaches, what is not to like?
ks about noise and emissions into the very surroundings and air we others also have to co-inhabit and breathe, and if someone points out that they don't like that, they are the bad guy? How come one cares more of what someone writes on a forum, then about stting all over our common surroundings?Oh, and then the fantastic logic of 'I'm so small, I don't matter, look at China!
Well, if you ACTUALLY did that, you would realise China is the world leader in electric cars, electric bikes, solar cell production and also biggest producer of sustainable electricity. 2017 almost 37% of electricity production was sustainable (Solar, Wind and Hydro) in China - that's a lot. And increasing. Yes coal remains a issue, but there is much more than just coal coal coal happening there as some seem te believe...
The excuse that 'we don't have to a diddly t
t because they don't do anything' doesn't hold up very well. We all, all 7 billion whatever of us, contribute for good or bad, simples.The world is changing, if you're gonna burn fossile fuel, better enjoy it is my motto. All those commuters sitting in a traffic jam in a single car is just pure waste of good fuel, and has little or nothing to do with car and driving enthusiasts... If we can find ways to do things more effectively and more cleanly and the old way only gives us headaches, what is not to like?
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