RE: BMW M4 CS (F82) meets BMW M3 CS (E46)
Discussion
jakesmith said:
Every M4 that has driven past me sounds like a SR Nova 1.3 with a few holes drilled in the airbox, a blowing exhaust, and then a dog farting as presumably the car changes gear.
I love how they look, and love that grey colour. I'm sure they are awesome to drive too but I would struggle to get past the dire sound.
I do feel that the E46 CSL was the high water mark for M3's, BMW, maybe even a signifier of the top of the car market completely.
how did that sound get signed off?I love how they look, and love that grey colour. I'm sure they are awesome to drive too but I would struggle to get past the dire sound.
I do feel that the E46 CSL was the high water mark for M3's, BMW, maybe even a signifier of the top of the car market completely.
AMG seem to pay particular attention to getting the sound of their cars right (maybe there is some synthetic sound not sure), but how did BMW get it so wrong?
It got signed off because some people thought it was ok, and that the 3 litre straight six with a pair of turbos didn’t sound like an 8 valve four pot one point three litre Vauxhall from 25 years ago....
....I’m absolutely not going to sit here and say that it’s a paradigm of epic automotive music but gents, I think you’re overstepping the mark!
....I’m absolutely not going to sit here and say that it’s a paradigm of epic automotive music but gents, I think you’re overstepping the mark!
hungry_hog said:
jakesmith said:
Every M4 that has driven past me sounds like a SR Nova 1.3 with a few holes drilled in the airbox, a blowing exhaust, and then a dog farting as presumably the car changes gear.
I love how they look, and love that grey colour. I'm sure they are awesome to drive too but I would struggle to get past the dire sound.
I do feel that the E46 CSL was the high water mark for M3's, BMW, maybe even a signifier of the top of the car market completely.
how did that sound get signed off?I love how they look, and love that grey colour. I'm sure they are awesome to drive too but I would struggle to get past the dire sound.
I do feel that the E46 CSL was the high water mark for M3's, BMW, maybe even a signifier of the top of the car market completely.
AMG seem to pay particular attention to getting the sound of their cars right (maybe there is some synthetic sound not sure), but how did BMW get it so wrong?
There was a white E92 M3 in my village that had this mod that every M3 owner does and it honestly crap when driving around at normal speeds, lots of noise without going anywhere, just very loud, E46 M3’s have the same problem, very Metallicy rattle at half load...again with the V10 M5, but redline any of them, including the M4 and the noise is sensational.
The only poor sounding M car is the F10 M5, just loud and doesn’t sound like a V8 at all.
Nimerino said:
It always seem to me that reviewers endlessly rationalise the damn-near dangerous handling traits of the F82, and the trend seems only to have become more prominent since the release of the CS gave it an aura of being ‘special’. It’s not, it’s a tarted-up marketing exercise. Nothing of genuine worth was transferred from the GTS and the price is a joke.
Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.
I agree. The F82 is most disappointing car I’ve driven. Crap is not good, it’s crap.Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.
Timely posting PH, just as I had gone through the pain of the "sell or not sell" debate, and finally decided to post my E46 CS for sale...
After 9 years of ownership, have to say I agree with most of what's been said, including the SMG/manual debate. It's a beautifully balanced car, not "in your face", but equally not understated. I get that many struggle with the CS "premium" on the M4 - it does seem steep to be honest, but I have only driven the stock M4, so can't really comment and compare.
For the E46, the rarity of the CS and the subtle differences are spot on, and so long as it's kept in tip top condition it will never fail to put a smile on your face when you drive it. Fortunate that mine's still holding the BMW warranty, so any departure from tip top has been tended to instantly, and also fortunate that it's never been a daily, so those "smile on your face" moments are that much more special.
Great article, great debate - just unfortunate timing, making me feel sick that it's going to go, but I've made the decision and sticking with it - even if I live to regret it in years to come...
After 9 years of ownership, have to say I agree with most of what's been said, including the SMG/manual debate. It's a beautifully balanced car, not "in your face", but equally not understated. I get that many struggle with the CS "premium" on the M4 - it does seem steep to be honest, but I have only driven the stock M4, so can't really comment and compare.
For the E46, the rarity of the CS and the subtle differences are spot on, and so long as it's kept in tip top condition it will never fail to put a smile on your face when you drive it. Fortunate that mine's still holding the BMW warranty, so any departure from tip top has been tended to instantly, and also fortunate that it's never been a daily, so those "smile on your face" moments are that much more special.
Great article, great debate - just unfortunate timing, making me feel sick that it's going to go, but I've made the decision and sticking with it - even if I live to regret it in years to come...
neilw1001 said:
Timely posting PH, just as I had gone through the pain of the "sell or not sell" debate, and finally decided to post my E46 CS for sale...
After 9 years of ownership, have to say I agree with most of what's been said, including the SMG/manual debate. It's a beautifully balanced car, not "in your face", but equally not understated. I get that many struggle with the CS "premium" on the M4 - it does seem steep to be honest, but I have only driven the stock M4, so can't really comment and compare.
For the E46, the rarity of the CS and the subtle differences are spot on, and so long as it's kept in tip top condition it will never fail to put a smile on your face when you drive it. Fortunate that mine's still holding the BMW warranty, so any departure from tip top has been tended to instantly, and also fortunate that it's never been a daily, so those "smile on your face" moments are that much more special.
Great article, great debate - just unfortunate timing, making me feel sick that it's going to go, but I've made the decision and sticking with it - even if I live to regret it in years to come...
Hi Neil,After 9 years of ownership, have to say I agree with most of what's been said, including the SMG/manual debate. It's a beautifully balanced car, not "in your face", but equally not understated. I get that many struggle with the CS "premium" on the M4 - it does seem steep to be honest, but I have only driven the stock M4, so can't really comment and compare.
For the E46, the rarity of the CS and the subtle differences are spot on, and so long as it's kept in tip top condition it will never fail to put a smile on your face when you drive it. Fortunate that mine's still holding the BMW warranty, so any departure from tip top has been tended to instantly, and also fortunate that it's never been a daily, so those "smile on your face" moments are that much more special.
Great article, great debate - just unfortunate timing, making me feel sick that it's going to go, but I've made the decision and sticking with it - even if I live to regret it in years to come...
I was thinking of you when I first saw this article - read through to the end (so far) and here you are :-)
What are you looking for next or have you already found it ? I’m still loving ‘our’ 993, just over 60k miles on it now.
Regards,
Paul
Chestrockwell said:
I don’t particularly like the noise at half load but no M Car actually sounds nice until it gets past 5k + RPM.
There was a white E92 M3 in my village that had this mod that every M3 owner does and it honestly crap when driving around at normal speeds, lots of noise without going anywhere, just very loud, E46 M3’s have the same problem, very Metallicy rattle at half load...again with the V10 M5, but redline any of them, including the M4 and the noise is sensational.
The only poor sounding M car is the F10 M5, just loud and doesn’t sound like a V8 at all.
I think it’s all the farts and pops that become annoying. Even Minis have been afflicted. There was a white E92 M3 in my village that had this mod that every M3 owner does and it honestly crap when driving around at normal speeds, lots of noise without going anywhere, just very loud, E46 M3’s have the same problem, very Metallicy rattle at half load...again with the V10 M5, but redline any of them, including the M4 and the noise is sensational.
The only poor sounding M car is the F10 M5, just loud and doesn’t sound like a V8 at all.
S1KRR said:
I agree. I know several people that do this. Though I'll add the caveat that this is for people earing less than say £5K a month and whom subscribe to the classic "champagne taste, lemonade money"
Where I work there's a direct connection to these people and lack of work ethic too!
"Less than £5k a month"Where I work there's a direct connection to these people and lack of work ethic too!
I haven't checked the figures but I would say less than 5% of people earn more than £5k a month lol.
Kawasicki said:
Nimerino said:
It always seem to me that reviewers endlessly rationalise the damn-near dangerous handling traits of the F82, and the trend seems only to have become more prominent since the release of the CS gave it an aura of being ‘special’. It’s not, it’s a tarted-up marketing exercise. Nothing of genuine worth was transferred from the GTS and the price is a joke.
Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.
I agree. The F82 is most disappointing car I’ve driven. Crap is not good, it’s crap.Being unable to handle the torque through the rear wheels at lateral load on anything other than marble-smooth roads (and the utter unpredictability of the behaviour) aren’t exciting traits, they’re potentially catastrophic. How did we get to the point where the inability to trust a car’s kinematics became a desirable trait? And if the CS is so much better-resolved, given pretty much identical suspension hardware, why didn’t the standard cars receive the same treatment? The answer certainly isn’t £27k worth of anything.
I always enjoy general gassing and artistic licence when M power bmw cars are debated. I don't have a great deal to say except the newer M2 would have been a better comparison me thinks.....?
Having owned a few e46 m3's and still driving a modified manual coupe (remap and exhaust) I can only say I am biased and think the e46 m3 is the high water mark in bmw's history. The cs and csl being the ultimate incarnation. It is not hard to alter a normal e46 m3 to CS specification. I except the csl is rather special. But they are collectors cars and never set foot on public roads. As for the M4 CS, I really do like the cars , BUT.............to me, it's not a well healed working mans car. It's living of the name of it's predecessor. As others have pointed out 100k for a bmw. I truly believe the M4 CS like many cars like that have outlived there purpose like the supercars of the 1980's and 90's.
I am quite happy with my m3 and have no intentions of getting rid of it. In fact for the price of that M4 I could but 5 mint low mileage m3's e46's. I suppose the last thing to say is will the M4 have the same impact as the m3 e46 cs. I very much doubt it.
Many years ago back in the 90's we all wanted Rs turbo's and Cosworth's. Real piston head legends
Then it was the M3 e36 and e46 M3 and e39 m5 from the 00''s have also had there time in the limelight and have earned there place as Real piston head legends.
By the time the M4 is yesterdays news, there will be permanent fixed speed limits everywhere and the sort of people who are alive today and would love that car will be dead and the next generation driving self driving electric Elon musk machines.
Having owned a few e46 m3's and still driving a modified manual coupe (remap and exhaust) I can only say I am biased and think the e46 m3 is the high water mark in bmw's history. The cs and csl being the ultimate incarnation. It is not hard to alter a normal e46 m3 to CS specification. I except the csl is rather special. But they are collectors cars and never set foot on public roads. As for the M4 CS, I really do like the cars , BUT.............to me, it's not a well healed working mans car. It's living of the name of it's predecessor. As others have pointed out 100k for a bmw. I truly believe the M4 CS like many cars like that have outlived there purpose like the supercars of the 1980's and 90's.
I am quite happy with my m3 and have no intentions of getting rid of it. In fact for the price of that M4 I could but 5 mint low mileage m3's e46's. I suppose the last thing to say is will the M4 have the same impact as the m3 e46 cs. I very much doubt it.
Many years ago back in the 90's we all wanted Rs turbo's and Cosworth's. Real piston head legends
Then it was the M3 e36 and e46 M3 and e39 m5 from the 00''s have also had there time in the limelight and have earned there place as Real piston head legends.
By the time the M4 is yesterdays news, there will be permanent fixed speed limits everywhere and the sort of people who are alive today and would love that car will be dead and the next generation driving self driving electric Elon musk machines.
I am on my second E46 M3 which I have put CSL wheels on. Not a CS but £15k cheaper. Just missing quicker steering and slightly better brakes. No big deal to me. M4 CS is not the spiritual successor - it’s the Alfa Quadrofoglio. What. A. Car. Get one now and enjoy before this type of fun is snuffed out.
Gus265 said:
I am on my second E46 M3 which I have put CSL wheels on. Not a CS but £15k cheaper. Just missing quicker steering and slightly better brakes. No big deal to me. M4 CS is not the spiritual successor - it’s the Alfa Quadrofoglio. What. A. Car. Get one now and enjoy before this type of fun is snuffed out.
The quicker steering rack and the M button set the CS apart from the M3. Quad is a hugely overrated car.
Oakman said:
Hi Neil,
I was thinking of you when I first saw this article - read through to the end (so far) and here you are :-)
What are you looking for next or have you already found it ? I’m still loving ‘our’ 993, just over 60k miles on it now.
Regards,
Paul
Hi Paul, I was thinking of you when I first saw this article - read through to the end (so far) and here you are :-)
What are you looking for next or have you already found it ? I’m still loving ‘our’ 993, just over 60k miles on it now.
Regards,
Paul
If I miss the CS as much as I miss the 993 I'll be suicidal soon :-) . It was never going to be a replacement for the 993, but wow, what a car. My son bought me a great (imported) model of the C4S in Arena Red, identical to "ours" as I sold it - it sits centre stage on my office desk. Glad it's still hitting the spot.
Not sure what's after the CS yet, but working away a lot, house move coming up, likely will be without garage space for a while, and it made (some) sense to bite the bullet and initiate a change. I'll probably hold back on the replacement for a few months, but have some things in mind to research...watch this space !!
See you're running an R32 - can't interest you in a CS ?? You know from experience it will be a well looked after car...!
Must catch up some time
Cheers
Neil
Alpinestars said:
Gus265 said:
I am on my second E46 M3 which I have put CSL wheels on. Not a CS but £15k cheaper. Just missing quicker steering and slightly better brakes. No big deal to me. M4 CS is not the spiritual successor - it’s the Alfa Quadrofoglio. What. A. Car. Get one now and enjoy before this type of fun is snuffed out.
The quicker steering rack and the M button set the CS apart from the M3. Quad is a hugely overrated car.
Alpinestars said:
Gus265 said:
I am on my second E46 M3 which I have put CSL wheels on. Not a CS but £15k cheaper. Just missing quicker steering and slightly better brakes. No big deal to me. M4 CS is not the spiritual successor - it’s the Alfa Quadrofoglio. What. A. Car. Get one now and enjoy before this type of fun is snuffed out.
The quicker steering rack and the M button set the CS apart from the M3. Quad is a hugely overrated car.
I think it’s safe to say the QF might be a lot of things but how can it possibly be overrated?! I think it’s had quite a lot of unfair stick given to it!
It’s an amazing car. And that’s coming from a BMW M fan.
I had an e46 M3 ‘back in the day’. Manual. It was the only car (apart from ‘any’ car when you’re 17-19 and driving is still awesome) that I missed not driving when I was on holiday etc. I really loved it. But an old car now and I prob couldn’t go back as with any former love.
Had a DCT F80 M3 a couple of years ago. Non comp pack. Sold it after 4 months because it was so boring. Sounded awful (you can turn off the synthetic noise though) and the interior was surprisingly low rent. I wanted to love it so much. I hope the new G80 brings back some of that M magic.
Got a w205 C63, again really like it, sounded utterly fantastic (and no synthetic noise just a glorious v8) but I can’t seem to ‘love’ it.
Cars seems to be tools now, competent, comfortable, but soulless. Maybe I should try a Giulia Quad.
Had a DCT F80 M3 a couple of years ago. Non comp pack. Sold it after 4 months because it was so boring. Sounded awful (you can turn off the synthetic noise though) and the interior was surprisingly low rent. I wanted to love it so much. I hope the new G80 brings back some of that M magic.
Got a w205 C63, again really like it, sounded utterly fantastic (and no synthetic noise just a glorious v8) but I can’t seem to ‘love’ it.
Cars seems to be tools now, competent, comfortable, but soulless. Maybe I should try a Giulia Quad.
I've owned my e46 manual coupe from new and still get as bigger kick out of driving it today as I did when taking delivery back in 2003.
I find it has so much character that's sorely missing in so many modern much faster cars of today.
You can still have fun in it at much slower speeds.
My cars had quite a bit of fettling over the 16 years I've owned it, csl faster steering rack, csl wheels, AP brakes, recaro's, eventuri carbon intake, and the wonderful ac shnitzer rs suspension to turn it into my ideal fast road spec.
It's a car I will never sell which is something I can't say about the latest bm's
I find it has so much character that's sorely missing in so many modern much faster cars of today.
You can still have fun in it at much slower speeds.
My cars had quite a bit of fettling over the 16 years I've owned it, csl faster steering rack, csl wheels, AP brakes, recaro's, eventuri carbon intake, and the wonderful ac shnitzer rs suspension to turn it into my ideal fast road spec.
It's a car I will never sell which is something I can't say about the latest bm's
MBeemerman said:
I've owned my e46 manual coupe from new and still get as bigger kick out of driving it today as I did when taking delivery back in 2003.
I find it has so much character that's sorely missing in so many modern much faster cars of today.
You can still have fun in it at much slower speeds.
My cars had quite a bit of fettling over the 16 years I've owned it, csl faster steering rack, csl wheels, AP brakes, recaro's, eventuri carbon intake, and the wonderful ac shnitzer rs suspension to turn it into my ideal fast road spec.
It's a car I will never sell which is something I can't say about the latest bm's
E46s just look so right, don't they. I notice the 1M next to it, is that yours too?I find it has so much character that's sorely missing in so many modern much faster cars of today.
You can still have fun in it at much slower speeds.
My cars had quite a bit of fettling over the 16 years I've owned it, csl faster steering rack, csl wheels, AP brakes, recaro's, eventuri carbon intake, and the wonderful ac shnitzer rs suspension to turn it into my ideal fast road spec.
It's a car I will never sell which is something I can't say about the latest bm's
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